Canadian Medical System

[Annie]

Wonder if any of the Canadians would discuss the merits or lack thereof of this article: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040721.shtml

Excerpt:

The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.

Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks

and this:

Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.

Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors." That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail for the Fraser Institute's Forum and titled "Oh to Be a Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health-care system and pay for your own surgery.

 

[Doomer]

Sounds about right.

 

[Annie]

Sounds about right.

That's depressing. Perhaps Mr. Marbles will have a more positive spin on it?

 

[Isaac Brock]

That's depressing. Perhaps Mr. Marbles will have a more positive spin on it?

I will, socialized medicine is something I believe greatly in. I will post later. I'm racing today.

 

[Annie]

I will, socialized medicine is something I believe greatly in. I will post later. I'm racing today.

Ok good luck at the races! Is it rowing?

 

[MrMarbles]

That's depressing. Perhaps Mr. Marbles will have a more positive spin on it?

Hhmmm spin, lets see....

CANADA RULES!!!!

Canadian health care has it's problems. It is not as nearly as effeicent as it should/could be. But at the end of the day, everyone gets quality fair, equal treatment, and quality care.

 

[Annie]

Hhmmm spin, lets see....

CANADA RULES!!!!

Canadian health care has it's problems. It is not as nearly as effeicent as it should/could be. But at the end of the day, everyone gets quality fair, equal treatment, and quality care.

LOL That was NOT my best diplomatic effort. If the article is true though, fair is everyone gets lousy? Why do I think we might see different socioeconomic classes getting different levels of care. Now I may be projecting our school system problems...

 

[insein]

Canada's Healthcare system and our Education system reflect each other in alot of ways. Everyone gets substandard care even though money is being poured into both. Those with money pay to have they're kids in better schools or pay to have better health care. Yet those people still have to pay double for everyone elses healthcare/education.

You think it works now Marbles. Tell me how good it is when you need surgery or if you need to get a simple prescription for poison ivy or a rash. You'll be waiting an average of 17.7 weeks for it to come. I dunno about you but 4 months to get a prescription for a rash would suck ass.

 

[MrMarbles]

Canada's Healthcare system and our Education system reflect each other in alot of ways. Everyone gets substandard care even though money is being poured into both. Those with money pay to have they're kids in better schools or pay to have better health care. Yet those people still have to pay double for everyone elses healthcare/education.

You think it works now Marbles. Tell me how good it is when you need surgery or if you need to get a simple prescription for poison ivy or a rash. You'll be waiting an average of 17.7 weeks for it to come. I dunno about you but 4 months to get a prescription for a rash would suck ass.

Chances are, it is the rural areas of Canada that bring up the average waiting times. Obviously someone in Nunavut will not the sare as a Torontonian. Just for the fact of where docs live, the same in the states. I've never waited, prescription, or analysis. I've never been to surgery, but still. How do the average joe pay for care in the states?

 

[insein]

Chances are, it is the rural areas of Canada that bring up the average waiting times. Obviously someone in Nunavut will not the sare as a Torontonian. Just for the fact of where docs live, the same in the states. I've never waited, prescription, or analysis. I've never been to surgery, but still. How do the average joe pay for care in the states?

Most average joes can afford even basic healthcare through their work or on their own. Unfortunately prices keep going up due to trial lawyers and their frivelous law suits. Even those without healthcare though can goto the ER. You get something similar to the healthcare from canada in the ER. Not as good as pay doctors but you get treated. They bill you later. You can work out installments or pay out right.

 

[MrMarbles]

Most average joes can afford even basic healthcare through their work or on their own. Unfortunately prices keep going up due to trial lawyers and their frivelous law suits. Even those without healthcare though can goto the ER. You get something similar to the healthcare from canada in the ER. Not as good as pay doctors but you get treated. They bill you later. You can work out installments or pay out right.

I don't think costs are going up just because of lawyers. When health care is a bussiness, the bottm line is key. Everyone needs it, so the demand is high, which just raises prices along with it.

 

[insein]

I don't think costs are going up just because of lawyers. When health care is a bussiness, the bottm line is key. Everyone needs it, so the demand is high, which just raises prices along with it.

You can make that case. From the state i live in though, when doctors leave in droves and whole practices close up because of outrageous insurance costs for the doctors, it becomes a problem with the lawyers.

 

[DKSuddeth]

You can make that case. From the state i live in though, when doctors leave in droves and whole practices close up because of outrageous insurance costs for the doctors, it becomes a problem with the lawyers.

shouldn't that be an issue with the insurance companies instead?

 

[Isaac Brock]

Alright, sorry for the wait. I was dragon boat racing this weekend!

To put in simply, public healthcare in Canada costs less per person than a privitized system. In addition, on average, it provides better service for the customer.

Kathianne, I believe you posted a study by the Fraser Group which is a right-wing think tank out of British Columbia. Now, that's not inherintly bad in itself. However, it had selectively chose which case studies it presented. Many, many studies have been done in Canada on health care, but I would trust the medical profession itself to what it believes is the best system for care. Worst case scenarios can always be found in any jurisdiction.

The Canadian Medical Journal a publisher for the Canadian Medical Associations (Canada's version of the AMA) published this following study this year:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/170/12/1817.pdf

In addition, consider this. In the 2000 World Health Report by the WHO, Canada spent 8.6% of its GDP or USD$1938 per person on health care. The United States spent 13.7% of its GDP on health care or USD$4,357. Australia is also public, spent 7.8% of its GDP or USD$1,864 per person. The only first world, public health care system I could find that exceeds US's per capita spending on health care is Switzerland at USD$ 4,727 per person. Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Iceland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Norway and Sweden all cost less per capita and less as percentage of GDP. US pays the highest as percentage of GDP. The 2004 World Health Report can be found at:

http://www.who.int/whr/2004/en/

While Canadian costs are increasing, they are well below what would be found under the American model. Beyond simple statistics, Canadians must also look at our country and see if the private model can work. A casual look of Canada will find it extraordinarily spread out with many Northern communities away from large centres. Privitizing our system would drive the costs up beyond what any of those communities could likely pay.

While there are no doubt challenges facing the system and it is by far not perfect, it would certainly be premature to toss out the model for privitization. The rich can still go to the US if they want preferential treatment, but picture doomsayers' paint of the Canadian system is simply not accurate.

 

[Said1]

"Quote The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks."

The wait time to see a specialist usually depends on the seriousness of your condition. I have never waited more than one day, nor do I know anyone who has had to wait an unresonable amount of time based on their illness. There is a difference between specialist and regular GP, and that's what the stats are in reference to. It's difficult to find a new GP here in Ontario, probably causing people to go into the emergency room with little things like a rash, wasting time and money.