Canadian health care is not as "universal" as liberals claim

Orangecat

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yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper
I have no problem with you and like-minded individuals doing that. Don't force your choice on others, though. That's an asshole move.
 

Juicin

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yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper
I have no problem with you and like-minded individuals doing that. Don't force your choice on others, though. That's an asshole move.
How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/

It's just like how we buy bullets in bulk

Why teh fuck wouldn't you buy insulin in bulk? Or anything else that we need for medical supplies.

We pay double what other western nations do for the exact same services largely for this reason. Hospitals get shafted on prices, then they turn and shaft patients and insurance companies. If you give hospitals large pools of cheap and exactly teh same drugs to buy and supplies to buy from....It won't hurt your pocket at all we'll just get better health care.

Just basic good governance that requires no substantive subsidy. People will buy the insulin it's cheap.
 

Shelzin

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So...in which country, the US or Canada - do more people have coverage and affordable healthcare....?
Canada. Maybe. I'm not sure. I would literally have to figure out how much I pay in extra taxes and see if it's more or less than I pay now for Health insurance per month. But you were looking for the answer Canada, so I'll happily give it.

I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada. You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront. I would do that if I could.
 

Orangecat

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How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/
Your words: "me forcing us".
Sorry, I have no interest in you forcing "us" to subsidize your poor health choices. Be a grownup and take care of yourself.
Why teh fuck wouldn't you buy insulin in bulk?
I have no use or need for insulin. If you want to band together with other insulin users and buy in bulk for a better deal, go for it. I won't be part of your group.
People will buy the insulin it's cheap.
I'm a person, and I won't buy it either way. Same with tampons. If you need them, buy them. Don't force everyone else to.
 

BluesLegend

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So...in which country, the US or Canada - do more people have coverage and affordable healthcare....?
Canada's worthless coverage is not affordable start there. The study you linked notes Canadians are not getting the best value for their tax dollars, shocker it's run by the government. Obamacare dragged down the US, now there's some worthless coverage for many people the sky high deductibles mean the insurance never pays a dime and people still have to pay the sky high premiums.
 

Orangecat

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Its the least that a "Christian" nation should do.
You don't make the rules for the nation. That "christian nation" meme is a desperate attempt to virtue signal when you, as a typical liberal, have no virtues.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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A single mother of two working tables in a restaurant shouldn't have to choose between the electric bill and seeing about the lump she has noticed in her breast.

Your comment has nothing to do with what I posted.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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For seven years I lived in a city near the Canadian border.

The waiting rooms in the doctor's office always had Cananadians that had come down to get medical care. They would rather pay for our care than to get whatever their government gave them for free.

Socialized medicine sucks.

Excellent point.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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And if the Dem politicians do impose socialized medicine on us ordinary people, you can be sure that they and their families will be going to private practitioners and hospitals.

No mixing with (the) hoi polloi for them!

(Can you imagine the Speaker of the House trusting her facial enhancements to a government-paid health worker?)

You are 100% correct, and here is proof.

The Democrats who passed Obamacare later gave themselves all sorts of exemptions from it.

I have documented a huge number of these exemptions in this very long post on my blog.

This proves that the best criticism of Obamacare actually comes from Democrats, not Republicans.

I'm posting the beginning of what I wrote. You can click on the link to read the rest.


Here are 341 reasons why Democrats and unions that support Obamacare want exemptions for themselves


1) After Obamcare was passed, unions that supported its passage requested and received special exemptions

Within months after Obamacare was passed, Obama gave some organizations an exemption from some of the requirements of Obamacare. As time went on, more than 1,300 organizations received these exemptions.

More than half of the people who are covered by insurance plans that received these exemptions are in union insurance plans. These unions supported the passage of Obamacare. But immediately after Obamacare was passed, these unions wanted exemptions from the very same law that they wanted to force everyone else to obey. This reveals an extreme level of hypocrisy among many of the supporters of Obamacare.

In addition, these exemptions are illegal for two reasons – because Obama granted the exemptions without approval from Congress, and because the Constitution requires the law to treat everyone the same.

The Washington Times wrote of this:

“Selective enforcement of the law is the first sign of tyranny. A government empowered to determine arbitrarily who may operate outside the rule of law invariably embraces favoritism as friends, allies and those with the best-funded lobbyists are rewarded. Favoritism inevitably leads to corruption, and corruption invites extortion. Ultimately, the rule of law ceases to exist in any recognizable form, and what is left is tyranny.”

“The now-familiar monthly trickling down of new waivers is, at best, a tacit admission that Obamacare is a failure. So far, seven entire states and 1,372 businesses, unions and other institutions have received waivers from the law. The list includes the administration’s friends and allies and, of course, those who have the best lobbyists.”

“More than 50 percent of the Obamacare waiver beneficiaries are union members, which is striking because union members account for less than 12 percent of the American work force. The same unions that provided more than $120 million to Democrats in the last two elections and, in many cases, openly campaigned in favor of the government takeover of your health care, now celebrate that Obamacare is not their problem.”


2) After Obamacare was passed, politicians who voted for it asked for a special exemption for their own districts

Even the politicians who voted for Obamacare want exemptions for their own districts.

In response to the medical device tax that is part of Obamacare, some medical device manufacturers have announced plans to layoff employees, including Welch Allyn (275 planned layoffs), Stryker (1,170 planned layoffs), and Medtronic (1,000 planned layoffs).

In December 2012, Al Franken, Elizabeth Warren, John Kerry, and 15 other Democrats who supported the passage of Obamacare wrote a letter to Harry Reid, asking him to delay the tax on medical devices, claiming that the tax would hurt job creation in their districts.

3 ) Politicians who voted for Obamacare wanted an additional exemption for themselves and their staff after it was passed

This is another example of how the politicians who voted for Obamacare want exemptions for themselves.

In 2010, Obamacare was passed by the House and Senate, and signed by President Obama.

Three years later, members of Congress and their staff complained that Obamacare was going to cost them a lot of money, and said that this would likely cause a brain drain among their staff. In response to this, Obama made changes to Obamacare so that these things would not happen. However, Obama’s actions were illegal, because he made these changes without Congress voting on them first.

The New York Times wrote of this:

… the language of the health care law requires Congressional employees to obtain health insurance through an exchange created by the law, but other parts of the federal legal code restrict the ability of the federal government to pay the usual employer share for group insurance programs approved by the Office of Personnel Management.

A straightforward reading of the law thus means that Congressional staff members, starting in January 2014, will have to obtain insurance through the Affordable Care Act but pay for it on their own without the normal contribution from their employer — Congress. This would be a multi-thousand-dollar income hit for those affected… many… would potentially feel the pain, giving rise to concerns over a potential brain drain of Congressional staff members finding other employment.

… the federal personnel office initially ruled that Congressional staff members would not be eligible for the subsidies, and then changed this decision under pressure from the White House…


4) An entire state that supported Obamacare asked for an exemption

The people of Massachusetts were huge supporters of Obamacare when it was passed, and they voted for Obama in both elections. But even they eventually ended up asking for their own special exemption from Obamacare.

In August 2013, Obama gave an Obamacare waiver to Massachusetts.

This waiver was illegal for two reasons. First, the waiver was not approved by the U.S. Congress. Second, the U.S. Constitution requires that the federal government treat all states the same.

5) Obamacare supporters at Democratic Underground later complained about it

For some really hilarious displays of shock and outrage by supporters of Obamacare at how it’s harming people, check out these threads at Democratic Underground: one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven.

6) Union members quit their union because of Obamacare

The AFL-CIO was a big supporter of the passaage of Obamacare in 2010, and supported Obama in both elections.

In September 2013, it was reported that 40,000 longshoremen had quit the AFL-CIO, and that they had cited Obamacare as one of their reasons for doing so.

7) Obama broke his own deadline for creating healthcare exchanges

Even Obama himself seems to be an opponent of Obamacare.

Three years after Obama signed Obamacare, the New York Times reported that Obama would miss his own deadline for creating some of the insurance exchanges for small businesses.

8) Obama waited until after the 2012 election to release unpopular Obamacare rules

Obama himself is so much against Obamacare that he waited until after the 2012 election to release some of its rules.

In April 2013, the New York Times reported:

… even fervent supporters of the law admit that things are going worse than expected.

… the Obama administration didn’t want to release unpopular rules before the election.

Everything is turning out to be more complicated than originally envisioned.

A law that was very confusing has become mind-boggling… Americans are just going to be overwhelmed and befuddled. Many are just going to stay away, even if they are eligible for benefits.


9) Obama illegally bypassed Congress to delay Obamacare’s employer mandate

Here’s another example of how even Obama is against Obamacare.

As the Obamacare law was written, the employer mandate was to begin in January 2014. This is what the law said when it was passed by the House and Senate, and signed by President Obama in 2010.

However, in July 2013, Obama delayed the employer mandate part of Obamacare until January 2015. Obama did this without approval from Congress.

For Obama to change a law that was passed by Congress, without first getting approval from Congress, is a violation of the Presidential oath that Obama took to uphold and defend the Constitution.

What Obama did here is an action of a dictator, not an action of a President whose power is limited by a written constitution.

If Obama can get away with this, then it sets a horribly dangerous precedent, and means that the President can arbitrarily make any change to any law that has been passed by Congress, without first getting approval from Congress.

10) Obama illegally avoided enforcing the required income verification of people who receive subsidies for Obamacare exchanges

Here is yet another example of how Obama is against Obamacare.

Even though Obamacare requires the government to verify the income of people who receive subsidies for Obamacare exchanges, in August 2013 it was reported that Obama would not be verifying their incomes.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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Canada has higher health metrics than the US... So "rationed" means all people get healthcare even by you own admission

The whole point of my OP is to show examples of Canadians who did not get the health care that they needed in Canada.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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Canada is ranked 9th out out of 11 developed countries for healthcare...not good.

The US is ranked 11th out of 11th. That's pretty bad.

And you guys bitch about Canada?

My OP includes 3 examples of Canadian politicians who came to the U.S. to get health care.

Do you have any examples of U.S. politicians going to Canada to get health care?
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper

tha't sthe important bit

Which is why Americans buy drugs from canadians, only 30 million of them and they're getting drugs cheaper than us because they're not retarded. Many of them american invented treatments

Inventing a new drug is expensive.

Manufacturing a drug is cheap.

The reason that a lot of U.S. drugs are cheaper in Canada is because the cheaper Canadian prices don't take into account the cost of inventing those drugs.
 
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Drop Dead Fred

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I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada. You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.

From the OP:


The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada’s most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.

Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.

Dr. Day, 59, says. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

Canada remains the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services.
 

Shelzin

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I would note here you CAN pay for your healthcare in Canada. You can go to a doctors office where you pay upfront.

From the OP:


The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada’s most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.

Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.

Dr. Day, 59, says. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

Canada remains the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services.
I understand that. I also understand that they don't really seem to be enforcing that.
 

Juicin

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How is me forcing us as a society to buy drugs collectively that won't cost you a dime forcing a choice on you/
Your words: "me forcing us".
Sorry, I have no interest in you forcing "us" to subsidize your poor health choices. Be a grownup and take care of yourself.
Why teh fuck wouldn't you buy insulin in bulk?
I have no use or need for insulin. If you want to band together with other insulin users and buy in bulk for a better deal, go for it. I won't be part of your group.
People will buy the insulin it's cheap.
I'm a person, and I won't buy it either way. Same with tampons. If you need them, buy them. Don't force everyone else to.
It's just on the books dude

You sell it at cost. You do not need to pay for anything

We don't give it away

It's just cheap by virtue of us being a 300 million deep nation.

And how every other developed nation on the planet does things. None of which could do it as cheaply as us because we're hte largest developed nation on the planet
 

Juicin

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yea but we should buy collectively so the bill is cheaper

tha't sthe important bit

Which is why Americans buy drugs from canadians, only 30 million of them and they're getting drugs cheaper than us because they're not retarded. Many of them american invented treatments

Inventing a new drug is expensive.

Manufacturing a drug is cheap.

The reason that a lot of U.S. drugs are cheaper in Canada is because the cheaper Canadian prices don't take into account the cost of inventing those drugs.
Yea so we should subsidize the worlds medical r and d expenses?

what?

retarded
 

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