Can Atheists be Moral?

[MedfordMan]

Other than than mankind hasn't been able to agree on what is Truth.

Right, in cases where there is no way to test the truth of a proposal. On the other hand, mankind has come to agree the earth is a spheroid. And those who claim otherwise are wrong. Note that our only "truths" come from empirical examination.

While, on the other hand, magical, "divine" truths are untestable and, therefore, nonsense.

God has the truth which he communicates to me constantly through the Holy Spirit.

Then you do claim to have it. Get your story straight.

And you also claim everyone who doesnt believe as you do is wrong. Further evidence that, despite any of your contrived, flowery talking points to the contrary, you claim to be in possession of the one truth.

And this contradiction in your treatise from the start is evidence that you are selling a bill of goods.

Much ado about nothing

If by Truth, you mean all Truth (upper case) then neither myself of any Christian claims to know that.

We do claim to know the source of Truth (upper case), which is God.

However, we do claim to know a truth (lowe case) or two, such as the means to salvation as expressed to us by the source of Truth (upper case) God.

but you already knew that...[/QUOTE]

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Ironically, in Isaiah 40:22, the Bible states that the earth is round long before modern science was around

No it doesn't. How absurd. For every overwrought attempt to peddle that nonsense, one can just as easily produce passages from the bible that imply the earth is flat.

Much ado about nothing

Excuse you, its germane to your point. In one breath, you claim not to be in possession of the one, divine truth. In the next, you claim god communicates this truth to you. And,in the next, you claim that your magical beliefs are correct, while those of other religions are wrong. I can see how you would want to sidestep this obvious contradiction in your talking points, because it discredits you utterly .

 

[toobfreak]

the ability to tell right from wrong must be independent from mankind otherwise any tyrant could say killing millions of his enemy is "Right" and it would be so.

And it IS so, if enough peole agree, for all practolical purposes.. Just as we all agreed at the time that firebombing german civilians was "right".

No, morality and ethics are not independent of the human mind. In fact, they are an invention of the human mind, and that is the only place they exist. Thus, a social contract and legal system designed to enforce the consensus from outside the human mind.

Score one for the atheist position. Of course morality MUST NOT BE independent of the human mind if you don't believe in God in the first place! So in other words, your position may make 100% sense to you, but then so does it make sense to deny clouds and sunlight by a blind man.

The difference between us is that I'm willing to concede the validity of your POV making sense TO YOU. But you will NEVER concede the validity of my POV of absolute morality to me. You will argue it till doomsday claiming that I'm an idiot, wrong, mistaken and still living in the Dark Ages. Which proves my point in the first place, thank you.

Now go ahead and tell me there can't possibly be any God. I need my laugh for the day.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course morality MUST NOT BE independent of the human mind if you don't believe in God in the first place!

And i demonstrated quite well thatit is, regardless of your complaints. Furthermore, you reveal your own overwrought, verbose nonsense to be a useless ruse,as your ONLY real argument is thus:

"There is one god, therefore morality is independent of the human mind"

Of course, all your work is infront of you, as you are left to prove not only that gods exist, but there is only one, and he is perfectly moral, and he communicates those morals to us.

Get to work, Shaman! I think you will need to sacrifice at least 4 goats and 3 catsfor this one.

 

[toobfreak]

Of course morality MUST NOT BE independent of the human mind if you don't believe in God in the first place!

And i demonstrated quite well thatit is, regardless of your complaints. Furthermore, you reveal your own overwrought, verbose nonsense to be a useless ruse,as your ONLY real argument is thus:

"There is one god, therefore morality is independent of the human mind"

Of course, all your work is infront of you, as you are left to prove not only that gods exist, but there is only one, and he is perfectly moral, and he communicates those morals to us.

Get to work, Shaman! I think you will need to sacrifice at least 4 goats and 3 catsfor this one.

And there we go just as I know the FFT would. Right onto the bait in a nanosecond like a guppy. Already putting words in my mouth that I said there was only one God when I NEVER EVER said that! I'm not even a Christian, so if I only believe in one god, how do I defend Christianity?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Already putting words in my mouth

100% wrong. You put those own words in your own mouth, as they directly follow from your statements. If you dont like that, then recant your own bitchy little comments and reformulate them. Thanks.

 

[toobfreak]

Already putting words in my mouth

100% wrong.

Like I said. You can predict the faux scientist FFT like a bad cold. The guy has 0% credibility. I'm 100% wrong about something he cannot even prove or show the slightest proof of.

 

[ding]

You say its all magical bullshit.

And you claim your particular, preferred pile of magical bullshit is the only magical bullshit that is not bullshit.

So, a rational person like me is left with two choices"

1) Shaman Hobelim holds the only, absolute divine truth, and everyone else is full of shit.

2) Shaman Hobelim is just as full of shit as eveyone else.

Its not a tough call.

lol,,, there you go again too..

I tell you there is hidden teaching in scripture just like any fairy tale and you say there is no hidden teaching. I mention a talking serpent and you said the authors 'absolutely' believed that snakes can talk. I tell you that a talking serpent is an archetype for a specific type of person described in great detail, which is true about any talking animal in a fairy tale, and you call you that magical bullshit.

Now thats quite the steaming pile of hypocritical bullshit right there dripping off your lips.



You two are just as dumb and deliberately blind as any deceptive religious fundamentalist nut job out there...

You are a religious fundamentalist.

No. I am an ordinary unbeliever who just happened to learn how to recognize a fairy tale and search for the moral teaching of the story before I went to kindergarten.

By the second grade and I first heard about the story of Adam and Eve I had already known how to do that for years.

So when I first heard a religious instructor say "we believe that this bread made by human hands will become for us the body of christ", after I had memorized the ten commandments and learned about the death, hell, and eternal damnation consequent to disobedience I said to myself, "there goes a talking serpent, **** this religion."

Nothing magical, mystical, mysterious, supernatural, complicated, religious, or special about it.

I was just paying attention.

Cool story. Of course there’s the whole attacking a rival religion thingee that makes you a religious fundamentalist.

 

[ding]

The reason you can’t or won’t define what sin is is because it would detract from your attack on Christianity.

So let me be very clear here, sin is anything which distances one from God.

.

The reason you can’t or won’t define what sin is is because it would detract from your attack on Christianity.

So let me be very clear here, sin is anything which distances one from God.

who will not answer the question is you, what sins are you unable not to commit. christian.

Excuses are not sins. Excuses are rationalizations for one’s failure to produce the desired result or objective.

that must be one of them.

Excuses prevent one from seeing reality and learning the lesson they were supposed to learn and dooms them to repeating the same mistakes. Excuses transfer ones power and control to external sources. But excuses in and of themselves are not sins.

you have that backwards.

But excuses in and of themselves are not sins.

in regards to the original spoken religion of antiquity they are ... your 10,000 page document is an inexcusable sin. less than attaining the apex of knowledge is not an excuse. by humanity to fail without final judgement - for their existence from the metaphysical they evolved from.

What do you believe was the original spoken religion?

.
The Triumph of Good vs Evil - is the original religion of antiquity, reaffirmed by the travails of noah ... why it took them till the 4th century to makeup the forgeries of the christian bible. the fallacies of all three desert religions.

Life did not evolve from the metaphysical.

life is metaphysical without it the physical expression, physiology disappears from existence and is subordinate to the spiritual for its composition. as proof for their shared origin. not of Earth.

You are incapable of giving a straight answer, aren’t you?

Which religion was that again? The triumph of good versus evil? Never heard of it. Are you talking about Judaism?

.

Never heard of it.

the spoken religion of Antiquity, The Triumph of Good vs Evil - that's all there is christian ... and what is your religion of sinners called, that includes a messiah that is to save you from your uncontrollable sinning by granting you admission to the Everlasting than too who Triumph's over evil.

the religion of Antiquity is the spoken religion as prescribed by the Almighty, the travails of noah - yours is madeup in the 4th century by the crucifiers that misconstrued the events of the 1st century as has been perpetrated since the 4th century to this day. their 10,000 page political document disguised as a religion.

No such thing. Which religion did you say it was? If there was nothing ever written about it, how did you learn about it? Hmmmm?

 

[ding]

The reason you can’t or won’t define what sin is is because it would detract from your attack on Christianity.

So let me be very clear here, sin is anything which distances one from God.

.

The reason you can’t or won’t define what sin is is because it would detract from your attack on Christianity.

So let me be very clear here, sin is anything which distances one from God.

who will not answer the question is you, what sins are you unable not to commit. christian.

Excuses are not sins. Excuses are rationalizations for one’s failure to produce the desired result or objective.

that must be one of them.

Excuses prevent one from seeing reality and learning the lesson they were supposed to learn and dooms them to repeating the same mistakes. Excuses transfer ones power and control to external sources. But excuses in and of themselves are not sins.

you have that backwards.

But excuses in and of themselves are not sins.

in regards to the original spoken religion of antiquity they are ... your 10,000 page document is an inexcusable sin. less than attaining the apex of knowledge is not an excuse. by humanity to fail without final judgement - for their existence from the metaphysical they evolved from.

What do you believe was the original spoken religion?

.
The Triumph of Good vs Evil - is the original religion of antiquity, reaffirmed by the travails of noah ... why it took them till the 4th century to makeup the forgeries of the christian bible. the fallacies of all three desert religions.

Life did not evolve from the metaphysical.

life is metaphysical without it the physical expression, physiology disappears from existence and is subordinate to the spiritual for its composition. as proof for their shared origin. not of Earth.

You are incapable of giving a straight answer, aren’t you?

Which religion was that again? The triumph of good versus evil? Never heard of it. Are you talking about Judaism?

.

Never heard of it.

the spoken religion of Antiquity, The Triumph of Good vs Evil - that's all there is christian ... and what is your religion of sinners called, that includes a messiah that is to save you from your uncontrollable sinning by granting you admission to the Everlasting than too who Triumph's over evil.

the religion of Antiquity is the spoken religion as prescribed by the Almighty, the travails of noah - yours is madeup in the 4th century by the crucifiers that misconstrued the events of the 1st century as has been perpetrated since the 4th century to this day. their 10,000 page political document disguised as a religion.

Does this spoken religion of Antiquity have a God? Who practiced it? How did you learn about it? Do they teach that God created space and time? Do they believe in more than one God? Do they believe they are Gods or can become like a God?

Tell me more about this mysterious religion you follow.

 

[ding]

.

Can Atheists be Moral?


I have yet to receive a response from you or any christian, what sins they are unable to stop committing - and that the 1st century was an affirmation of the original religion of antiquity to triumph over evil for there even to be a judgement.

4th century christianity and the other two desert religions have abandoned the original religion to substitute their own that are political documents disguised as religions to suit their own self interest that falls far short of the path leading to admission to the Everlasting.

if there are sins christians are unable to not commit they can not be moral - for those that triumph over evil they can not be 4th century christians.

morality is a goal acquired through triumph - the apex of knowledge, purity of a freed spirit being a sabbath is the path to the Everlasting.

What is it that you think sin is exactly?

Sin is anything which distances us from God. Since no man or woman is all good or all bad, there will be times when they distance themselves from God. It’s unavoidable.

There are three possible states; we can be moving towards God, we can be moving away from God or we can be static.

Furthermore, at any point in time we can change states.

So save your bullshit for someone else.

.

What is it that you think sin is exactly?

Sin is anything which distances us from God. Since no man or woman is all good or all bad, there will be times when they distance themselves from God. It’s unavoidable.

christianity is the religion of sinners, (all bad) no matter their persona of repentance they will reap what they sow - the original religion of antiquity is the triumph of good vs evil that is granted judgement and possible admission to the Everlasting.

the Almighty is simply the gatekeeper ... that will keep the unjustified from entering where they do not belong.

There are three possible states; we can be moving towards God, we can be moving away from God or we can be static.

bing the dogmatic -

Columbus crossed the void and discovered land on the otherside, that is the mission for a spirit to be freed from the physical constraints through perseverance and knowledge to triumph by their own actions to be admitted to the Everlasting as a reward - it is a sin to remain a sinner, bing. making oneself pure is not - "no man or woman is all good or all bad" - have you fooled yourself or are you just lazy.

You never answered my question. How do you define sin?

Sin is disobedience to the law of God. But since the words of the law are figurative and the subjects are hidden, as Jesus revealed, many people are walking around feeling guilty for doing what is not sin and defiantly sinning without any awareness of their guilt.

Some people lie in the name of God as if its a religious duty and defy his commands as if death is the way to life.

There are even buildings all around the world where believers openly practice idolatry every Sunday thinking that by conforming to that vile and degrading practice they are saved.


Imagine that!

H,

i disagree.

Sin is not just disobedience to the law of God it is disobedience to the perfect will of God whether that is expressly outlined in a "law" or not.

You don’t seriously believe this guy believes in God, do you?

The only religion he has is the religion of bashing Christianity. Especially Catholicism. But it’s actually even worse than that, he condemns respect for Christians and especially Catholics.

 

[MedfordMan]

Ironically, in Isaiah 40:22, the Bible states that the earth is round long before modern science was around

No it doesn't. How absurd. For every overwrought attempt to peddle that nonsense, one can just as easily produce passages from the bible that imply the earth is flat.

Much ado about nothing

Excuse you, its germane to your point. In one breath, you claim not to be in possession of the one, divine truth. In the next, you claim god communicates this truth to you. And,in the next, you claim that your magical beliefs are correct, while those of other religions are wrong. I can see how you would want to sidestep this obvious contradiction in your talking points, because it discredits you utterly .

Let me correct a couple of misperceptions.

God, through the Holy Spirt, doesn't just speak to me or other believers, he's speaking to you and everyone else. You're just not listening.

That's not as critical as it sounds, because I get it. My selfish sin nature makes it difficult for me to listen to HIM too.

God (through the Holy Spirit) doesn't communicate "truth" to me. He provides practical direction in the minute to minute decisions I have to make in my daily life.

You see God doesn't provide truth, he IS righteous and true.

As a Christian, I am not better than you. I'm not smarter than you. I don't have any greater understanding of anything other than this. I'm a sinner, like you, but I can't redeem myself.

You seek truth? That's the truth I understand and that you don't.

You have made it clear that you don't feel that you need God and can do it all yourself.

Good luck to you, I tried that for years and was unsuccessful. If you can pull it off, you're a better man than me.

 

[Mindful]

There is a nice example of this way of thinking in the Vedanta philosophywritten down in the Upanishads. Here God is not above this world but is this world and everything in it. God is purple mountains and red Ferraris, politicians and dog poo. To be liberated is to realize that oneself and everything else is of the same fabric. Life as we often think of it, as divisions between you and I or one cult and another, are simply tricks we play on ourselves that keep us from understanding the true nature of God and reality. We think we die because God plays hide-and-seek with himself. But we never die, we just fall back into the wave of God. Alan Watts book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Really Are is an enjoyable romp through this way of thinking.

Why Do We Die?

 

[RWS]

What is it that you think sin is exactly?

Sin is anything which distances us from God. Since no man or woman is all good or all bad, there will be times when they distance themselves from God. It’s unavoidable.

There are three possible states; we can be moving towards God, we can be moving away from God or we can be static.

Furthermore, at any point in time we can change states.

So save your bullshit for someone else.

.

What is it that you think sin is exactly?

Sin is anything which distances us from God. Since no man or woman is all good or all bad, there will be times when they distance themselves from God. It’s unavoidable.

christianity is the religion of sinners, (all bad) no matter their persona of repentance they will reap what they sow - the original religion of antiquity is the triumph of good vs evil that is granted judgement and possible admission to the Everlasting.

the Almighty is simply the gatekeeper ... that will keep the unjustified from entering where they do not belong.

There are three possible states; we can be moving towards God, we can be moving away from God or we can be static.

bing the dogmatic -

Columbus crossed the void and discovered land on the otherside, that is the mission for a spirit to be freed from the physical constraints through perseverance and knowledge to triumph by their own actions to be admitted to the Everlasting as a reward - it is a sin to remain a sinner, bing. making oneself pure is not - "no man or woman is all good or all bad" - have you fooled yourself or are you just lazy.

You never answered my question. How do you define sin?

Sin is disobedience to the law of God. But since the words of the law are figurative and the subjects are hidden, as Jesus revealed, many people are walking around feeling guilty for doing what is not sin and defiantly sinning without any awareness of their guilt.

Some people lie in the name of God as if its a religious duty and defy his commands as if death is the way to life.

There are even buildings all around the world where believers openly practice idolatry every Sunday thinking that by conforming to that vile and degrading practice they are saved.


Imagine that!

H,

i disagree.

Sin is not just disobedience to the law of God it is disobedience to the perfect will of God whether that is expressly outlined in a "law" or not.

You don’t seriously believe this guy believes in God, do you?

The only religion he has is the religion of bashing Christianity. Especially Catholicism. But it’s actually even worse than that, he condemns respect for Christians and especially Catholics.

It's very easy to bash Christianity. Especially Catholicism. You people are wrong and evil. But so are every other religions. Yours are just easy because of documented history. You're evil people, believing in an evil religion. For the benefit of a few.

Just abandon that shit. And have your faith in goodness, and forfeit the evil and sin that your religion promotes and allows.

 

[RWS]

once you can do that, you will be a faithful person. As opposed to a lemming...

 

[RWS]

With faith, we can all have different ones and still get along great.

With religion, if we are different, we must kill to convert others.

I mean really... Just have your faith, and realize everyone has an equal opportunity for their own faith. And just let it be.

No reason to convert anyone.

I mentioned Let it Be, so I have to play it...

 

[ding]

.
christianity is the religion of sinners, (all bad) no matter their persona of repentance they will reap what they sow - the original religion of antiquity is the triumph of good vs evil that is granted judgement and possible admission to the Everlasting.

the Almighty is simply the gatekeeper ... that will keep the unjustified from entering where they do not belong.


bing the dogmatic -

Columbus crossed the void and discovered land on the otherside, that is the mission for a spirit to be freed from the physical constraints through perseverance and knowledge to triumph by their own actions to be admitted to the Everlasting as a reward - it is a sin to remain a sinner, bing. making oneself pure is not - "no man or woman is all good or all bad" - have you fooled yourself or are you just lazy.

You never answered my question. How do you define sin?

Sin is disobedience to the law of God. But since the words of the law are figurative and the subjects are hidden, as Jesus revealed, many people are walking around feeling guilty for doing what is not sin and defiantly sinning without any awareness of their guilt.

Some people lie in the name of God as if its a religious duty and defy his commands as if death is the way to life.

There are even buildings all around the world where believers openly practice idolatry every Sunday thinking that by conforming to that vile and degrading practice they are saved.


Imagine that!

H,

i disagree.

Sin is not just disobedience to the law of God it is disobedience to the perfect will of God whether that is expressly outlined in a "law" or not.

You don’t seriously believe this guy believes in God, do you?

The only religion he has is the religion of bashing Christianity. Especially Catholicism. But it’s actually even worse than that, he condemns respect for Christians and especially Catholics.

It's very easy to bash Christianity. Especially Catholicism. You people are wrong and evil. But so are every other religions. Yours are just easy because of documented history. You're evil people, believing in an evil religion. For the benefit of a few.

Just abandon that shit. And have your faith in goodness, and forfeit the evil and sin that your religion promotes and allows.

You mean sort of like how Hitler saw the Jews?

 

[ding]

With faith, we can all have different ones and still get along great.

With religion, if we are different, we must kill to convert others.

I mean really... Just have your faith, and realize everyone has an equal opportunity for their own faith. And just let it be.

No reason to convert anyone.

I mentioned Let it Be, so I have to play it...

Maybe you are the one who needs to let it be.

I already do.

 

[ding]

once you can do that, you will be a faithful person. As opposed to a lemming...

Lemmings come in all shapes and sizes. Some lemmings even accuse other people of being lemmings without ever realizing they are the lemming.

Let it be, Adolph.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

God, through the Holy Spirt, doesn't just speak to me or other believers, he's speaking to you and everyone else. You're just not listening.

Right....me and 5 billion others...how unfortunate...