Bring em home soon

[Mr. P]

Written by a guy on another site I visit who is about to be deployed to Afghanistan (for the second time I think).

I have to say I agree. Except for the bolded line.
******************************************

Well...based on conversations with lots of soldiers who have been to Iraq, I think we should pull out. As my friend Ray (freshly back from Iraq) put it, "I don't know why we're there. The Iraqis just keep killing each other anyway." The Iraqis don't at all appreciate the gifts of liberty and democracy that we are attempting to give them on a silver platter - at the cost of the blood of some of our country's finest young men.

Personally, I think this is because individual liberty and democratic government are products of societal evolution over thousands of years. For western culture, this began with the ancient Greeks. Muslim countries have no such cultural background. I just don't think we can make a stable democracy in such a culture in five or ten years, and I certainly don't think the ungrateful Iraqis deserve such an effort of American life and treasure.

I also think the welfare analogy applies to Iraq. Welfare recipients will milk the system and ride on the backs of taxpayers as long as they can. Only when you threaten to kick them off the welfare rolls on a certain date do they take responsibility for their own lives. Similarly, if we never give the Iraqis a deadline, they will just coast along on the backs of our Army, and America's young men will continue to die so that the Iraqis have the freedom to murder and torture each other.

I think the Bush administration will have to settle for some kind of compromise on Iraq, since there's really now way to win this. I realize the "strategy" has been "we'll pull out when we're victorious." But no one seems to be able to fully define victory in Iraq, and there is no way in hell the Iraqis are going to have a stable country by the end of the Bush administration.

Of course, in light of last week's election, it could be argued that the Bush administration has already ended. And no matter the excuses made by the GOP, it's because of the terrible and incompetent execution of the Iraq occupation. Incompetence not by the soldiers and Marines on the ground, but by the higher-ups who didn't plan for the worst.

 

[theHawk]

I agree. I think our mission was accomplished long ago. The mission was to remove Saddam, search for WMD, search and destroy terrorists, help establish a democracy for the Iraqis. I don't think we should pull out fully, I think we shouldn't be patrolling streets and setting up roadblocks. We'll still need to attack any terrorist strongholds via air-strikes and raids. Let the Iraqis work out their government themselves.

 

[90K]

Yes the mission to capture Saddam was a success. Although playing this humanitarian deal is where we've come up short. I actually think the iraqis don't want to led there country into another direction which could include democracy. I mean why should they? Many of the population had lived under Saddam and they didn't need to do anything. So yes seek and destroy terrorist like Al Sadr and let them figure the rest out. I also believe it is about the saving face agenda of our government as to keep trust in us, and that would be lost if we packed up tomorrow and left.

 

[dmp]

I respectfully disagree with that soldier. What's his grade, btw? Not that REALLY matters; but I speak with field-grade officers regularly about Iraq - most are either IN iraq (we chat via email) or just come back. Almost 100% say we need MORE presence there, and we shouldn't withdraw for at least several more years.

 

[90K]

:tongue1:

I respectfully disagree with that soldier. What's his grade, btw? Not that REALLY matters; but I speak with field-grade officers regularly about Iraq - most are either IN iraq (we chat via email) or just come back. Almost 100% say we need MORE presence there, and we shouldn't withdraw for at least several more years.

Actually you hear different stories depending on the rank/grade of the individuals. I haven't made it up to Walter Reed but many of those brave men and women would go back and finish the job if they could. So saying that I agree the troops are for the long haul if they'd have more polical support at home. And I say this to the minority of the populas in the US: Allow these troops to do there job and quit getting in the way.
Now if all these tree huggers want them back I guess my prior post would be my view on that.

 

[Mr. P]

I respectfully disagree with that soldier. What's his grade, btw? Not that REALLY matters; but I speak with field-grade officers regularly about Iraq - most are either IN iraq (we chat via email) or just come back. Almost 100% say we need MORE presence there, and we shouldn't withdraw for at least several more years.

And what would you expect a field-grade 'LIFER' to say, dmp?

 

[dmp]

And what would you expect a field-grade 'LIFER' to say, dmp?

These guys didn't get a lobotomy upon making O4, brother.

addendum:

In fact, a former co-worker, who was promoted to O5 just prior to his current deployment is a "Doing-my-20-and-getting-out" guy.

 

[Mr. P]

These guys didn't get a lobotomy upon making O4, brother.

addendum:

In fact, a former co-worker, who was promoted to O5 just prior to his current deployment is a "Doing-my-20-and-getting-out" guy.

So true which IS why they'll keep tight lips...Geeeeeeeezzzzzz..

Do you remember what happened to Gen. Singlaub after he spoke out?
Imagine what might happen to a Jr. field grade.

 

[dmp]

So true which IS why they'll keep tight lips...Geeeeeeeezzzzzz..

Do you remember what happened to Gen. Singlaub after he spoke out?
Imagine what might happen to a Jr. field grade.

Not even CLOSE. This guy wasn't speaking on behalf of the army - he had NO fear that I'd 'rat him out'. He's a 18 months from retirement, and maybe facing one MORE deployment after this one ends in may. You don't give people enough credit.

 

[Mr. P]

So true which IS why they'll keep tight lips...Geeeeeeeezzzzzz..

Do you remember what happened to Gen. Singlaub after he spoke out?
Imagine what might happen to a Jr. field grade.

Besides that, we could send every available soldier and things still wouldn’t change unless the Iraqis want things to change and want Democracy/ freedom. I don’t think they do. I believe this is a NO WIN situation, the sooner we’re out the better. As the first post makes clear, we can’t change a culture in a few years. That IMO is the major problem here. I don’t think trying to do so is worth our young men and women.
The kidnapping of all those folks this past weekend in BAGBAD no less, solidified this for me.

 

[dmp]

Besides that, we could send every available soldier and things still wouldn’t change unless the Iraqis want things to change and want Democracy/ freedom. I don’t think they do. I believe this is a NO WIN situation, the sooner we’re out the better. As the first post makes clear, we can’t change a culture in a few years. That IMO is the major problem here. I don’t think trying to do so is worth our young men and women.
The kidnapping of all those folks this past weekend in BAGBAD no less, solidified this for me.

You're opinion is based on your sources; Mine is based on the horse's mouth.

 

[Mr. P]

You're opinion is based on your sources; Mine is based on the horse's mouth.

Both are sources. Plus years of other infomation, both good and bad.

How long would you have us there, D? How many should we sacrifice for a cause that is not clearly defined? Sure one could say ‘the cause is democracy’, unfortunately there is no real plan in action to get there, it all eye candy IMO. Not only that, as I said, I don’t think they want it anyway. It’s a loss, loss, man. I’d give em 6 months, max one year and we’re out.

 

[dmp]

How long would you have us there, D?

As long as it takes. Decades, if required. Think post-wwII Europe and Asia.

How many should we sacrifice for a cause that is not clearly defined?

As many as it takes. And the cause IS defined.

Sure one could say ‘the cause is democracy’, unfortunately there is no real plan in action to get there, it all eye candy IMO.

"not knowing" the plan doesn't make the plan non-existant.

Not only that, as I said, I don’t think they want it anyway. It’s a loss, loss, man. I’d give em 6 months, max one year and we’re out.

I think they DO want it. They're just not sure how to GET it yet.

 

[Mr. P]

As long as it takes. Decades, if required. Think post-wwII Europe and Asia.



As many as it takes. And the cause IS defined.



"not knowing" the plan doesn't make the plan non-existant.



I think they DO want it. They're just not sure how to GET it yet.

I'm not into nation building at the expense of the US youth lead by incompetents and what appears to me to be the unwilling. Sorry.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm not into nation building at the expense of the US youth lead by incompetents and what appears to me to be the unwilling. Sorry.

Well, I've got ya beat. I get to talk to, every once in a while, an actual Iraqi who is living in Iraq, by way of her granddaughter, a good friend of mine. The Iraqis are quite ready for democracy (they've got far better voter turnout than we do) and would like our troops to stay there until they can defend themselves. And if you think this is bad, take a look at the occupation of postwar Europe and Japan. Once the Axis surrendered, it took a while for everyone to get their heads on straight. There was an insignificant number of conservatives, yet the mix of too many men, too much booze, and loaded weapons led to people continuing to die. It also took us decades to track down the last Imperial Japanese soldier. Then there was how many people died or nearly died of starvation and exposure and how many were saved by the Marshall Plan. Oh, and take a look at the recent news reports. Ever since the Democrats won Congress, the news has been looking up in Iraq. Maybe we'll finally start hearing the good news from over there.

 

[theHawk]

We gave them a chance at democracy. Democracy is a very fragile thing and will only work if people believe in the system. We've enabled them to have elections, the rest is up to them if they want it bad enough. So far the answer is 'yes we want democracy, but only if we are in power', sounds alot like our liberals doesn't it? So when all political 'sides' act like that, there is very little hope democracy will actually happen. Our troops should not be policing the streets, but should remain in Iraq to carry out strikes against al queda since they are well esablished there now.

 

[dmp]

I'm not into nation building at the expense of the US youth

Hobbit said it well:

And if you think this is bad, take a look at the occupation of postwar Europe and Japan. Once the Axis surrendered, it took a while for everyone to get their heads on straight.

lead by incompetents and what appears to me to be the unwilling. Sorry.

You're saying the Soldiers' leaders are incompetent? That's rich, from a retired officer. You know full-well it takes a LOT of mettle to reach the highest ranks. I'm involved with meeting, quarterly, with the leadership of an Army Corps. I'm contually amazed at just how capable Army leaders are.

 

[Mr. P]

This ain't post WWII guys. We were successful in removing Saddam, that’s a good thing. We have now begun an attempt to nation build. It’s failing terribly, and will until the Iraqis get off their collective asses and act in their own benifit, they aren’t. That doesn’t just mean get out and vote.
If they want change, change there will be. It’s not up to John Doe from Atlanta or Iowa or Mississippi or anywhere USA to hang around and wait until they do. If he does, they won’t.
.
How many years do WE wait for them to change, how many lives do WE give, how many Billions do WE spend, before WE get the picture?

I always hated the lefts chants of another Vietnam, it wasn’t, but has become so.

It's time to get out.

 

[Mr. P]

You're saying the Soldiers' leaders are incompetent?

Of course not the Soldiers'. The leaders as in the Commander an Chief, the Sec. of defense, in short, this administration.

 

[NATO AIR]

Well, I've got ya beat. I get to talk to, every once in a while, an actual Iraqi who is living in Iraq, by way of her granddaughter, a good friend of mine. The Iraqis are quite ready for democracy (they've got far better voter turnout than we do) and would like our troops to stay there until they can defend themselves. And if you think this is bad, take a look at the occupation of postwar Europe and Japan. Once the Axis surrendered, it took a while for everyone to get their heads on straight. There was an insignificant number of conservatives, yet the mix of too many men, too much booze, and loaded weapons led to people continuing to die. It also took us decades to track down the last Imperial Japanese soldier. Then there was how many people died or nearly died of starvation and exposure and how many were saved by the Marshall Plan. Oh, and take a look at the recent news reports. Ever since the Democrats won Congress, the news has been looking up in Iraq. Maybe we'll finally start hearing the good news from over there.

Never a more delusional statement made and most of us, including myself, were guilty of drinking the Kool-Aid on this one. We're crafting our American beliefs and biases onto the Iraqi culture and reality. Some cultures are not equal, civil societies are certainly not, and political systems are definitely unequal.

Voter turnout is high because the majority of people are voting for their religious and tribal bloc. Most are striving to get a bigger piece of the pie and the influence than the other groups. Saddam tribalized Iraqi society back in the early 90's when he had to cede local and regional security to the tribes because we devastated his military and logistics to the extent he never recovered. We didn't realize this because most of our intel was focused on Saddam's WMD attempts, border movements and sanctions busting observing and interdicting when possible.

There is a very real and frightening civil war going on in Iraq right now, especially in Baghdad. Our American soldiers are being betrayed by a political leadership in Washington and Baghdad which owes allegiances to other factions and interests. We try to take down the Shia death squad leaders to prove to the Sunnis we mean business and the Shia PM pitches a fit and cancels the operation. Hell, a kidnapped American solider gets abandoned at this bunch's whims.

The current leadership is largely made up of exiles who spent their time out of Saddam's reach learning from and being protected by groups like Hezbollah and the Iranian basijiis.

We're in bed with war criminals who've been ethnically cleansing as much of Iraq as they could, removing the Sunni "stain" from as much of their lands, cities and societies as they possibly could.

The US military had horrific leadership for much of this campaign. You cannot stand deaf dumb and blind to the reality you are fighting an insurgency for two years while nearly every credible regional expert, analyst and MENA journalist is describing the insurgency to a "T" in front of you. Countless lives were needlessly lost because this bunch of generals didn't do their jobs. They fell on their swords and sacrificed the mission to please the wack jobs allowed to run amok and in charge of the Pentagon.

Very few civilian leaders and military folks above 0-4 are going to be given a positive review by historians years and decades from now. The stench of incompetence, hubris and blatant stupidity is a cloudy haze of shit that is just beginning to be understood by the average American.

We haven't even touched on the USMB yet about the level of corruption by PMC's, government contractors and the military itself, with regards to missing equipment, fraudalent contracts and looted funds.