Brexit busted.

[frigidweirdo]

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

Even if any of that is true ... what does it have to do with the merits, or otherwise, of Brexit ??

If you have to divert away from direct issues to do with Brexit to try a smear tactic, instead .. what does that say about the lack of actual case you can offer on the pro-EU side ?

Here's what it has to do with it.

A person who earns 15,000 pounds a year, will save 7 pounds a year from leaving the EU. A person who earns like 30,000 will save maybe 30 pounds a year.

For most British people, leaving the EU won't save them much.

Take into account the drop in the pound as soon as a victory for Brexit would be confirmed, and your savings have gone out of the window, unless of course you don't buy anything from abroad, and don't go abroad.

Then take into account the drop in trade, and the costs for more people unemployed, and less people paying taxes, and your average Joe is going to lose out.

Who stands to gain? People who run businesses which are only UK focused. Weatherspoons, for example. Rich people stand to save a lot more money than poor people.

That's what it has to do with it.

I see. OK, thanks for that reply.

But I'm still struck by the weakness of your argument otherwise. Those things you cite as concerns for what will happen if Brexit occurs ... well, some if not all is mere assumption on your part - you could be wrong. Even if you're not, I see nothing to suggest that the longer-term future for the UK won't be brighter for having left. We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU ... and there's a wider trading and business environment out there than the totality of the EU. Businesses may be (I'm sure they WILL be !) delighted to be free of EU bureaucracy when trading with us in future. Businesses may relocate here, or open up job opportunities here. You can't rule it out. I say that trading opportunities are BIGGER outside of the EU than within it, and we'd be fools to deny ourselves of the opportunities that flow from that.

And ... immigration. Never forget that issue. Having control of our borders just has to be a very big 'plus' ... it's a total outrage that we don't have this right now.

How will the UK be better off?

I can't really see anything.

Yes, the EU is a pain in the ass. However the UK govt is a pain in the ass too. You'd still have the UK govt.

That'd be the UK govt that let in all those people that people hate, not the Poles who seem to work hard and get on with life, but the Pakistanis, the Africans, the Jamaicans among others who people rail against.

And they did not hate any of them until the Pakistanis started to demand more and more while giving less and less. Those are the only people that are hated in the UK, because of their attitude towards the British people.

And did they come in because the UK is in the EU? Not they did not. They came in because Pakistan was part of the Empire, and the British government (without any help from the EU) let them in.

So, again, how does leaving the EU change anything?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Earn £15,000 a year and save £7.28 from leaving the EU
Earn £20,000 a year and save £16.38 from leaving the EU
Earn £30,000 a year and save £34.58 from leaving the EU
Earn £50,000 a year and save £83.72 from leaving the EU
Earn £100,000 a year and save £265.72 from leaving the EU
Earn £1,000,000 a year and save £3967.60 from leaving the EU

So you can see who stands to save money. (assuming they don't get nice tax breaks)

Not the poorer people.

There are 30 million tax payers in the UK. 236,000 are on lower or starting rate. 616,000 on savers rate. 24 million are on basic rate. 4.4 million on a higher rate and 329,000 on additional rate.

So, the vast majority of people in the UK won't save much from leaving the EU.

Now, what happens when the pound drops?

Pound Rises After Evidence Shows EU "Stay" Campaign is Gaining Support

"The U.K. pound rose for the first time in three days after evidence emerged that the campaign to keep Britain in the European Union is gaining support."

It rose 0.4% against the Dollar and 0.8% against the Euro.

So if you go to Spain on holiday and you fly with Ryanair for £300 return, and you stay in an apartment for £600 for two weeks, and you spend another £300 in your two weeks, you're spending £1,200 on your holiday. If there were a 0.8% drop in the pound against the Euro you'd be losing £9.60 on your holiday.

So, for those who earn £15,000 a year, just a two week holiday on the cheap is going to lose the saving you made on leaving the EU.

So, for whom is this whole thing worth it?

 

[Drummond]

Not all immigrants come from the EU. Just a very sizeable proportion of them. Data just published ...

EU net migration equals record high of 184,000 - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Net long-term migration to the UK from the EU has reached the joint highest level on record, the final batch of official figures before the referendum have revealed.

The measure - the difference between the number of people arriving and leaving- was estimated at 184,000 in 2015. This is equal to the previous peak - recorded in the 12 months to March last year.

Meanwhile, overall net international migration increased to 333,000 - the second highest recorded.

It is 3,000 short of the all-time high posted last year and three times the Government's target level.

EU net migration was up compared to the previous year, when it stood at 174,000, but this was not a "statistically significant" change.

The apparent rise was largely due to an increase in net migration of citizens from Bulgaria and Romania, from 44,000 to 58,000, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

Estimated EU immigration - just the number of people coming to the UK from the bloc - was 270,000, compared to 264,000 in the previous year.

They are the final official figures on the issue to be published before next month's referendum, and prompted a fresh clash between the two camps.

There's only one cure for dealing with sky-high EU-based immigration, which comes about thanks to the EU's open border policy ... GET SHOT OF THE EU. This is the ONE and ONLY answer.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Not all immigrants come from the EU. Just a very sizeable proportion of them. Data just published ...

EU net migration equals record high of 184,000 - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Net long-term migration to the UK from the EU has reached the joint highest level on record, the final batch of official figures before the referendum have revealed.

The measure - the difference between the number of people arriving and leaving- was estimated at 184,000 in 2015. This is equal to the previous peak - recorded in the 12 months to March last year.

Meanwhile, overall net international migration increased to 333,000 - the second highest recorded.

It is 3,000 short of the all-time high posted last year and three times the Government's target level.

EU net migration was up compared to the previous year, when it stood at 174,000, but this was not a "statistically significant" change.

The apparent rise was largely due to an increase in net migration of citizens from Bulgaria and Romania, from 44,000 to 58,000, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

Estimated EU immigration - just the number of people coming to the UK from the bloc - was 270,000, compared to 264,000 in the previous year.

They are the final official figures on the issue to be published before next month's referendum, and prompted a fresh clash between the two camps.

There's only one cure for dealing with sky-high EU-based immigration, which comes about thanks to the EU's open border policy ... GET SHOT OF THE EU. This is the ONE and ONLY answer.

And get 3m pensioners back from Spain. Mental !!

 

[ESay]

And did they come in because the UK is in the EU? Not they did not. They came in because Pakistan was part of the Empire, and the British government (without any help from the EU) let them in.

So, again, how does leaving the EU change anything?

Exactly. Actually, the issue of immigration is absolutely illogical pretext for Brexiters to leave the EU. I have no doubts that the UK and the EU as a whole should do something with this issue. But… It is Muslims who make problems, but what do you propose? You propose to ban free access for the Poles to the UK who work hard (the vast majority of them at least) and benefit the UK’s economy. Yeah, it is very wise decision.

BTW, I have read here that the European rules thwart the UK to deport extreme islamists. But what would you do if these islamists had the UK’s citizenship?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Not all immigrants come from the EU. Just a very sizeable proportion of them. Data just published ...

EU net migration equals record high of 184,000 - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Net long-term migration to the UK from the EU has reached the joint highest level on record, the final batch of official figures before the referendum have revealed.

The measure - the difference between the number of people arriving and leaving- was estimated at 184,000 in 2015. This is equal to the previous peak - recorded in the 12 months to March last year.

Meanwhile, overall net international migration increased to 333,000 - the second highest recorded.

It is 3,000 short of the all-time high posted last year and three times the Government's target level.

EU net migration was up compared to the previous year, when it stood at 174,000, but this was not a "statistically significant" change.

The apparent rise was largely due to an increase in net migration of citizens from Bulgaria and Romania, from 44,000 to 58,000, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

Estimated EU immigration - just the number of people coming to the UK from the bloc - was 270,000, compared to 264,000 in the previous year.

They are the final official figures on the issue to be published before next month's referendum, and prompted a fresh clash between the two camps.

There's only one cure for dealing with sky-high EU-based immigration, which comes about thanks to the EU's open border policy ... GET SHOT OF THE EU. This is the ONE and ONLY answer.

Yes, it changes year on year depending, but it's about 50%!

 

[Drummond]

Just think. To regain 50% (or thereabouts) of, yes, actual CONTROL over our OWN borders !!! The day we manage that would surely be a day of celebration ... yes ?

Well, it could be less than a month away ! Prepare the champagne .....

 

[Drummond]

And did they come in because the UK is in the EU? Not they did not. They came in because Pakistan was part of the Empire, and the British government (without any help from the EU) let them in.

So, again, how does leaving the EU change anything?

Exactly. Actually, the issue of immigration is absolutely illogical pretext for Brexiters to leave the EU. I have no doubts that the UK and the EU as a whole should do something with this issue. But… It is Muslims who make problems, but what do you propose? You propose to ban free access for the Poles to the UK who work hard (the vast majority of them at least) and benefit the UK’s economy. Yeah, it is very wise decision.

BTW, I have read here that the European rules thwart the UK to deport extreme islamists. But what would you do if these islamists had the UK’s citizenship?

Strange though it may seem, the UK did, in its history, have a period of prosperity and stand-alone viability, BEFORE the Poles came along ! Ditto other EU migrants to our shores.

Try a Trump-like ban on Muslims specifically ... and whatever power trying it would be committing 'PC' suicide. Pressure groups, rampaging Lefties, and yes, Muslims already here, would never stand for it. We could even see riots in the streets, or worse. Ah, but ... make it a generalised issue about immigration, and the complaints about bias and bigotry don't have traction. Besides, what's wrong with enhancing our border controls to the maximum extent ??? Does it offend some PC-brainwashed Leftie out there to even think of that ??

One thing we do know ... it DOES offend the EU, that we should have, and take, such a level of control. How dare we !! After all, THEY want that power ... don't they ?

 

[frigidweirdo]

And did they come in because the UK is in the EU? Not they did not. They came in because Pakistan was part of the Empire, and the British government (without any help from the EU) let them in.

So, again, how does leaving the EU change anything?

Exactly. Actually, the issue of immigration is absolutely illogical pretext for Brexiters to leave the EU. I have no doubts that the UK and the EU as a whole should do something with this issue. But… It is Muslims who make problems, but what do you propose? You propose to ban free access for the Poles to the UK who work hard (the vast majority of them at least) and benefit the UK’s economy. Yeah, it is very wise decision.

BTW, I have read here that the European rules thwart the UK to deport extreme islamists. But what would you do if these islamists had the UK’s citizenship?

Strange though it may seem, the UK did, in its history, have a period of prosperity and stand-alone viability, BEFORE the Poles came along ! Ditto other EU migrants to our shores.

Try a Trump-like ban on Muslims specifically ... and whatever power trying it would be committing 'PC' suicide. Pressure groups, rampaging Lefties, and yes, Muslims already here, would never stand for it. We could even see riots in the streets, or worse. Ah, but ... make it a generalised issue about immigration, and the complaints about bias and bigotry don't have traction. Besides, what's wrong with enhancing our border controls to the maximum extent ??? Does it offend some PC-brainwashed Leftie out there to even think of that ??

One thing we do know ... it DOES offend the EU, that we should have, and take, such a level of control. How dare we !! After all, THEY want that power ... don't they ?

It also had a period of prosperity with the Romans, but hey...

 

[ESay]

And did they come in because the UK is in the EU? Not they did not. They came in because Pakistan was part of the Empire, and the British government (without any help from the EU) let them in.

So, again, how does leaving the EU change anything?

Exactly. Actually, the issue of immigration is absolutely illogical pretext for Brexiters to leave the EU. I have no doubts that the UK and the EU as a whole should do something with this issue. But… It is Muslims who make problems, but what do you propose? You propose to ban free access for the Poles to the UK who work hard (the vast majority of them at least) and benefit the UK’s economy. Yeah, it is very wise decision.

BTW, I have read here that the European rules thwart the UK to deport extreme islamists. But what would you do if these islamists had the UK’s citizenship?

Strange though it may seem, the UK did, in its history, have a period of prosperity and stand-alone viability, BEFORE the Poles came along ! Ditto other EU migrants to our shores.

Try a Trump-like ban on Muslims specifically ... and whatever power trying it would be committing 'PC' suicide. Pressure groups, rampaging Lefties, and yes, Muslims already here, would never stand for it. We could even see riots in the streets, or worse. Ah, but ... make it a generalised issue about immigration, and the complaints about bias and bigotry don't have traction. Besides, what's wrong with enhancing our border controls to the maximum extent ??? Does it offend some PC-brainwashed Leftie out there to even think of that ??

One thing we do know ... it DOES offend the EU, that we should have, and take, such a level of control. How dare we !! After all, THEY want that power ... don't they ?

I want to remind you that it is not the EU’s bureaucrats but your own government let the Pakistanis move in decades ago.

What will you do with those Muslims who already have the British citizenship?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Just think. To regain 50% (or thereabouts) of, yes, actual CONTROL over our OWN borders !!! The day we manage that would surely be a day of celebration ... yes ?

Well, it could be less than a month away ! Prepare the champagne .....

Does the UK not have control over its own borders?

Come off it? The UK is not in the Schengen Agreement.

Norway and Switzerland are. The UK could join if it left the EU.

 

[Mindful]

So THAT'S why they don't want us to leave: Brexit set to send German exporters bust

 

[Mindful]

Do the French want out?

Now French voters call for FREXIT after Germany face demands for EU referendum

 

[Tilly]

Ooooooerrrrrrr. Not really a sensible threat to issue right now.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding
EASTERN European countries who refuse to take in refugees face losing billions of pounds in European Union (EU) funding, a top Eurocrat has warned.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding

 

[Vikrant]

Do the French want out?

Now French voters call for FREXIT after Germany face demands for EU referendum

Exit will be in this order:

1. UK
2. France
3. Germany

 

[Drummond]

Just think. To regain 50% (or thereabouts) of, yes, actual CONTROL over our OWN borders !!! The day we manage that would surely be a day of celebration ... yes ?

Well, it could be less than a month away ! Prepare the champagne .....

Does the UK not have control over its own borders?

Come off it? The UK is not in the Schengen Agreement.

Norway and Switzerland are. The UK could join if it left the EU.

Limited control, yes. Leaving the EU would substantially enhance that control, however.

Here's an example of why it matters - why the current situation is not only 'far from ideal', but actually has wide-ranging security implications ...

Britain part of group of EU countries pushing for firmer border controls over Isil threat

Britain and seven EU countries will push for European Union to restrict free movement rights at Europe's borders over jihadist threat, confidential document reveals.

Officials estimate that there are up to 3,000 "foreign fighters" who are Europeans in Syria and Iraq who benefit from EU free movement rights that allow them to return from conflict zones without border checks.

The EU's open border regime is nothing short of absolute madness. Quite apart from the 'immigration numbers' argument (highly valid in its own right), the EU's immovability over what it's pleased to call a 'foundling principle' - in defiance of sheer commonsense ! - is something that'll give us all an immense security headache for years, possibly decades, ahead.

Again -- the sooner we can get shot of these EU nutters, the better ....

 

[Drummond]

Ooooooerrrrrrr. Not really a sensible threat to issue right now.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding
EASTERN European countries who refuse to take in refugees face losing billions of pounds in European Union (EU) funding, a top Eurocrat has warned.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding

This, of course, concerns 'refugees' who can't possibly have been adequately checked out beforehand. The sheer numbers involved argues for that ... as does the war-torn conditions of the region they've come from.

It seems that the EU has far less concern for its members' security concerns, and far more for dictating 'PC' imperatives of its own invention. An example of sheer power-dictatorship overriding the fundamental interests of individual nations.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Just think. To regain 50% (or thereabouts) of, yes, actual CONTROL over our OWN borders !!! The day we manage that would surely be a day of celebration ... yes ?

Well, it could be less than a month away ! Prepare the champagne .....

Does the UK not have control over its own borders?

Come off it? The UK is not in the Schengen Agreement.

Norway and Switzerland are. The UK could join if it left the EU.

Limited control, yes. Leaving the EU would substantially enhance that control, however.

Here's an example of why it matters - why the current situation is not only 'far from ideal', but actually has wide-ranging security implications ...

Britain part of group of EU countries pushing for firmer border controls over Isil threat

Britain and seven EU countries will push for European Union to restrict free movement rights at Europe's borders over jihadist threat, confidential document reveals.

Officials estimate that there are up to 3,000 "foreign fighters" who are Europeans in Syria and Iraq who benefit from EU free movement rights that allow them to return from conflict zones without border checks.

The EU's open border regime is nothing short of absolute madness. Quite apart from the 'immigration numbers' argument (highly valid in its own right), the EU's immovability over what it's pleased to call a 'foundling principle' - in defiance of sheer commonsense ! - is something that'll give us all an immense security headache for years, possibly decades, ahead.

Again -- the sooner we can get shot of these EU nutters, the better ....

Well it could, but doesn't mean it will increase that control. Seeing as a lot of people are still entering the UK from OUTSIDE of the EU.

Also, it causes a problem. The UK exports old people abroad, and imports workers to the UK, if that were to change, then what? A lot of people living in the UK who aren't working any more. Doesn't exactly help, does it?

What happens if the UK government decides it has to join the Schengen Agreement? Then what?

So, the UK is pushing for tighter border controls WITHIN the EU. So why does it need to leave? Just push for tighter border controls.

No, the EU's open border situation isn't madness. What is madness is when different countries can let in whoever they like and then move them on straight away. If the EU is going to have open borders, those borders need to be much tighter with non-EU countries.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Ooooooerrrrrrr. Not really a sensible threat to issue right now.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding
EASTERN European countries who refuse to take in refugees face losing billions of pounds in European Union (EU) funding, a top Eurocrat has warned.

EU's latest THREAT: Do as we say over migrant quotas or you’ll lose your funding

This, of course, concerns 'refugees' who can't possibly have been adequately checked out beforehand. The sheer numbers involved argues for that ... as does the war-torn conditions of the region they've come from.

It seems that the EU has far less concern for its members' security concerns, and far more for dictating 'PC' imperatives of its own invention. An example of sheer power-dictatorship overriding the fundamental interests of individual nations.

But the UK didn't have to let in refugees. It did, and it was the UK GOVERNMENT that decided this.

So, what's this got to do with the EU?

 

[Drummond]

Just think. To regain 50% (or thereabouts) of, yes, actual CONTROL over our OWN borders !!! The day we manage that would surely be a day of celebration ... yes ?

Well, it could be less than a month away ! Prepare the champagne .....

Does the UK not have control over its own borders?

Come off it? The UK is not in the Schengen Agreement.

Norway and Switzerland are. The UK could join if it left the EU.

Limited control, yes. Leaving the EU would substantially enhance that control, however.

Here's an example of why it matters - why the current situation is not only 'far from ideal', but actually has wide-ranging security implications ...

Britain part of group of EU countries pushing for firmer border controls over Isil threat

Britain and seven EU countries will push for European Union to restrict free movement rights at Europe's borders over jihadist threat, confidential document reveals.

Officials estimate that there are up to 3,000 "foreign fighters" who are Europeans in Syria and Iraq who benefit from EU free movement rights that allow them to return from conflict zones without border checks.

The EU's open border regime is nothing short of absolute madness. Quite apart from the 'immigration numbers' argument (highly valid in its own right), the EU's immovability over what it's pleased to call a 'foundling principle' - in defiance of sheer commonsense ! - is something that'll give us all an immense security headache for years, possibly decades, ahead.

Again -- the sooner we can get shot of these EU nutters, the better ....

Well it could, but doesn't mean it will increase that control. Seeing as a lot of people are still entering the UK from OUTSIDE of the EU.

Also, it causes a problem. The UK exports old people abroad, and imports workers to the UK, if that were to change, then what? A lot of people living in the UK who aren't working any more. Doesn't exactly help, does it?

What happens if the UK government decides it has to join the Schengen Agreement? Then what?

So, the UK is pushing for tighter border controls WITHIN the EU. So why does it need to leave? Just push for tighter border controls.

No, the EU's open border situation isn't madness. What is madness is when different countries can let in whoever they like and then move them on straight away. If the EU is going to have open borders, those borders need to be much tighter with non-EU countries.

Your first point is surely disingenuous ? Yes, a lot of people are entering the UK from outside the EU, but that particular issue is as much a part of our control as we choose it to be, whereas .. in the case of EU citizens coming over here, they have a right to do so, sanctioned NOT exclusively by us, but instead by the EU - acting on its own authority, NOT ours.

Your second point is simplistic. We don't 'export' old people ... such people choose to move. We import 'workers' to the UK, but this is far from controllable by our own authorities, which is, after all, the point !! And these 'workers' ... do they take jobs that our own, UK-based people, could otherwise take on ?

How many of our own citizens are denied employment opportunities that these others take instead ?

You say 'What happens if the UK government decides it has to join the Schengen Agreement?'. Kindly clarify. By 'has to', are you saying we will have this dictated to us, or, be otherwise FORCED to take it on ? Surely, the central reason for getting shot of the EU is for us to gain the freedom to govern our own affairs, as WE see fit ? Are you saying that European influences will be brought to bear to still deny us our freedoms ?

You say 'So, the UK is pushing for tighter border controls WITHIN the EU. So why does it need to leave? Just push for tighter border controls.'

Such a 'push' would of itself guarantee ... NOTHING. Such controls would be conferred to us .. we'd have no direct means of ensuring they were brought in. The UK vote is very much a minority compared with all those other EU Member States.

Self-determination is what the Brexit side is fighting for, and stands for. Denying us this is what its opposition is all about.