Breeding terrorists through bad policy.

[Billo_Really]

But the point I was making with that comment was not that this is what the Jewish people think (we don't), but that this is the argument presented by the anti-Israel side. The WHOLE point being that the anti-Israel side finds it acceptable practice when Arab Muslim Palestinians do it but heinous when the tables are turned. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the anti-Israel side. And you walked right into it.

I can only speak for myself and I'm anti-Israeli. I can tell you right now, it has nothing to do with what "Arab Muslim Palestinian's" do; it has everything to do with what Israeli's do.

Israel is not criticized, because people simply don't like Israel. Israel is criticized, because Israel is doing some very bad things.

Why is it, the pro-Israeli crowd can bring themselves to blame Israel for anything? And why does the pro-Israeli crowd take the position that Israel is blamed for everything?

No.1 - You don't blame Israel at all.
No.2 - You think Israel is blamed for everything.
No.3 - You blame the Pals for everything.​

You get so ridiculous, that you even try to blame the Pals, for Israel shooting at their fishermen. You drop 2000 pound bombs that take out entire neighborhoods, but its the Pals fault for using human shields? You've maintained a brutal occupation for the last 70 years, but it's the rockets (which started 34 years after the occupation began), that are the problem?

The bottom line is, you want people to believe the emperor has new clothes and that's not going to happen.

 

[Billo_Really]

The world will have to provide security for the Israeli people in order for progress to be made. Their aggression is based on fear.
Both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations.

I think the Palestinian's have done enough compromising. They've basically agreed to give Israel what it wants and Israel still rejects peace.

How about Israel just start respecting international law and human rights?

 

[Moonglow]

Palestine: Still key to stability in the Middle East

At some point the penny will drop.

What time does the breeding start?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The world will have to provide security for the Israeli people in order for progress to be made. Their aggression is based on fear.
Both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations.

I think the Palestinian's have done enough compromising. They've basically agreed to give Israel what it wants and Israel still rejects peace.

How about Israel just start respecting international law and human rights?

Whilst they live in fear that aint going to happen. It is clear who is the aggressor here but you wont get a solution by pointing fingers at each other.
You have to deal with what you have.
I saw it in Ulster where the antagonism went back a lot further.
Both sides saw the others as terrorists and both sides were right.

 

[Billo_Really]

I haven't? Oh, my apologies. I will rectify that forthwith. I vehemently condemn the consequences of war brought on by the Hostile Arab Palestinians and their Arab League supporters resulting from a large scale, co-ordinated attack on the nascent State of Israel by belligerent enemies in an attempt to destroy the nation and take her land by aggression.

Here again, you don't blame Israel for its role in the hostilities. Get this through you fucking head, there was no hostility in that area until the Zionists showed up.

Had the Arab Palestinians only accepted one of the partition plans (either the original one with Jordan or the subsequent suggestion of 181), then the Arab Palestinians would be part of a vibrant multi-cultural, successful nation of Israel or would have their own nation. Better?

181 was not a fair deal. No one in their right mind would've accepted that. Why would 70% of the population, accept a deal where it would whined up with 30% of the land?

Now, why don't you condemn the actual expulsion of 900,000 Jewish people from the Middle East? Why don't you support their right of return? Why don't you support their self-determination and sovereignty in land they have lived on for thousands of years?

Start a thread, provide the link and we'll talk about it.

 

[Billo_Really]

Whilst they live in fear that aint going to happen. It is clear who is the aggressor here but you wont get a solution by pointing fingers at each other.
You have to deal with what you have.
I saw it in Ulster where the antagonism went back a lot further.
Both sides saw the others as terrorists and both sides were right.

I get it. I firmly believe in a military solution. I think the UN should send in a coalition force and drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel, then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot anybody that enters it from either side.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Whilst they live in fear that aint going to happen. It is clear who is the aggressor here but you wont get a solution by pointing fingers at each other.
You have to deal with what you have.
I saw it in Ulster where the antagonism went back a lot further.
Both sides saw the others as terrorists and both sides were right.

I get it. I firmly believe in a military solution. I think the UN should send in a coalition force and drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel, then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot anybody that enters it from either side.

It will never work unless both sides believe in it.

Clause 1 of Barts agreement with Nelson was that "Nelson acknowledges Barts right to exist".

Wise words.

 

[Billo_Really]

It will never work unless both sides believe in it.

Clause 1 of Barts agreement with Nelson was that "Nelson acknowledges Barts right to exist".

Wise words.

I've said all along Israel has only two options:

1. End the occupation voluntarily
2. Or be forced to

Sooner or later, the world community is going to deal with Israel, the same way it dealt with Germany when it tried to annex Poland.

 

[RoccoR]

Tommy Tainant, et al,

I agree with your assessment; but I'm having trouble with your solution.

The world will have to provide security for the Israeli people in order for progress to be made. Their aggression is based on fear.
Both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations.

(COMMENT)

The original purpose for the establishment of a Jewish National Home was to create an entity such that the Jewish would have a safe haven that they can defend against the tyranny of the majority that could, create a legal environment such that the Jewish people and even the culture, could be put at risk.

The international community cannot be trusted to protect, on any long-term basis, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Israel (Jewish State or otherwise). When push came to shove, NATO could not the Russian take-over and annexation of the Crimea. Arab and Islamic states are inherently unstable. While it might be possible to construct a security arrangement today, there is nothing in the longer term that anyone can rest a reasonable assurance against the Arab League shifting Politically and attempt to overthrow yet again, the State of Israel.

You say the Israel's "aggression is based on fear." I would say that Israel's risk assessment has determined that the Arab League, and in particular, the 1988 State of Palestine are not politically stable enough to warrant another unilateral withdraw. And while they have consistently whined that they have been denied sovereignty and independence, at no time have they even attempted to meet the Article 22 criteria in the demonstrated ability to stand alone. Even when the Israeli's tested the water and unilaterally disengaged from the Gaza Strip, the Hostile Arab Palestinians continued to launch rockets during and after the withdraw. (No one took notice of that; not the UN, not the Arab League, and not the media). In fact, if anything, the 2005 disengagement was evidence that the Arab Palestinians follow the established pattern of criminal behavior.

As you say, "both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations." But the Arab Palestinians have not deviated from the 1948 pledge to not recognize the establishment of a Jewish State anywhere in Arab Territory, they have not altered from the Khartoum Resolution (No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel); and they have reaffirmed their political position: "We will not, in any way, recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. This is a principled, political, and moral position. We do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, nor do we acknowledge “Israel” or the legality of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long it remains."

The hesitation on the part of NATO to react in Crimea, cost the Crimean they have lost their sovereignty. Such a delay in an emergency response to Israel, would spell the end for Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tommy Tainant, et al,

I agree with your assessment; but I'm having trouble with your solution.

The world will have to provide security for the Israeli people in order for progress to be made. Their aggression is based on fear.
Both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations.

(COMMENT)

The original purpose for the establishment of a Jewish National Home was to create an entity such that the Jewish would have a safe haven that they can defend against the tyranny of the majority that could, create a legal environment such that the Jewish people and even the culture, could be put at risk.

The international community cannot be trusted to protect, on any long-term basis, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Israel (Jewish State or otherwise). When push came to shove, NATO could not the Russian take-over and annexation of the Crimea. Arab and Islamic states are inherently unstable. While it might be possible to construct a security arrangement today, there is nothing in the longer term that anyone can rest a reasonable assurance against the Arab League shifting Politically and attempt to overthrow yet again, the State of Israel.

You say the Israel's "aggression is based on fear." I would say that Israel's risk assessment has determined that the Arab League, and in particular, the 1988 State of Palestine are not politically stable enough to warrant another unilateral withdraw. And while they have consistently whined that they have been denied sovereignty and independence, at no time have they even attempted to meet the Article 22 criteria in the demonstrated ability to stand alone. Even when the Israeli's tested the water and unilaterally disengaged from the Gaza Strip, the Hostile Arab Palestinians continued to launch rockets during and after the withdraw. (No one took notice of that; not the UN, not the Arab League, and not the media). In fact, if anything, the 2005 disengagement was evidence that the Arab Palestinians follow the established pattern of criminal behavior.

As you say, "both communities will have to compromise or lives will be blighted for generations." But the Arab Palestinians have not deviated from the 1948 pledge to not recognize the establishment of a Jewish State anywhere in Arab Territory, they have not altered from the Khartoum Resolution (No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel); and they have reaffirmed their political position: "We will not, in any way, recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. This is a principled, political, and moral position. We do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, nor do we acknowledge “Israel” or the legality of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long it remains."

The hesitation on the part of NATO to react in Crimea, cost the Crimean they have lost their sovereignty. Such a delay in an emergency response to Israel, would spell the end for Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Racist as usual.

 

[Shusha]

I think the UN should send in a coalition force and drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel, then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot anybody that enters it from either side.

Even the farmers?

 

[Billo_Really]

Even the farmers?

If they enter the DMZ, then they are obviously not farming, are they?

 

[Shusha]

Even the farmers?

If they enter the DMZ, then they are obviously not farming, are they?

Thank you! Now apply that thinking to Gaza.

 

[Billo_Really]

Thank you! Now apply that thinking to Gaza.

As soon as you apply that to Israel.

 

[Billo_Really]

Even the farmers?

You think its funny Israel deliberately shoots at people harvesting their crops?

 

[Shusha]

Even the farmers?

You think its funny Israel deliberately shoots at people harvesting their crops?

No. I don't think it is even remotely funny.

What is 'funny', as in odd, is that you can hold such a weirdly hypocritical view of things. You are perfectly fine with shooting people who enter a no-go zone. And yet that is EXACTLY what the border between Gaza and Israel is and you suddenly have a problem with it. Its a bias that is so obvious and so lop-sided it defies explanation. I don't understand how a person can hold two such blatantly opposite views at the same time.

 

[Billo_Really]

No. I don't think it is even remotely funny.

What is 'funny', as in odd, is that you can hold such a weirdly hypocritical view of things. You are perfectly fine with shooting people who enter a no-go zone. And yet that is EXACTLY what the border between Gaza and Israel is and you suddenly have a problem with it. Its a bias that is so obvious and so lop-sided it defies explanation. I don't understand how a person can hold two such blatantly opposite views at the same time.

It's one thing for an international coalition to set up a DMZ between two states in the interest of peace, it's quite another for a country to build a wall on land that isn't theirs and enforce a buffer zone in an area they have no legal jurisdiction to be in.

And how could I possibly be hypocritical when I said, "shoot anyone from either side"?

If I was a hypocrite, I'd shoot people on one side and allow the other side to pass.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Even the farmers?

You think its funny Israel deliberately shoots at people harvesting their crops?

No. I don't think it is even remotely funny.

What is 'funny', as in odd, is that you can hold such a weirdly hypocritical view of things. You are perfectly fine with shooting people who enter a no-go zone. And yet that is EXACTLY what the border between Gaza and Israel is and you suddenly have a problem with it. Its a bias that is so obvious and so lop-sided it defies explanation. I don't understand how a person can hold two such blatantly opposite views at the same time.

So why don't those freeloaders put their buffer zone on their own side of the fence?

 

[Shusha]

It's one thing for an international coalition to set up a DMZ between two states in the interest of peace, it's quite another for a country to build a wall on land that isn't theirs and enforce a buffer zone in an area they have no legal jurisdiction to be in.

And how could I possibly be hypocritical when I said, "shoot anyone from either side"?

If I was a hypocrite, I'd shoot people on one side and allow the other side to pass.

There is no border dispute with Gaza and there are no settlements in Gaza. So there is no "land that isn't theirs". (Unless you believe in dismantling Israel). So the real problem is that Israel is the one monitoring the no-go zone, yes? If the no-go zone was monitored by someone other than Israel, you would be fine with "shooting everyone who enters", yes? Even 'farmers'?

 

[Billo_Really]

There is no border dispute with Gaza and there are no settlements in Gaza. So there is no "land that isn't theirs". (Unless you believe in dismantling Israel). So the real problem is that Israel is the one monitoring the no-go zone, yes? If the no-go zone was monitored by someone other than Israel, you would be fine with "shooting everyone who enters", yes? Even 'farmers'?

There is a border with Gaza. And on the Gazan side of that border, is a buffer zone. Whatever is on the Gazan side of the border, is not Israel. Therefore, Israel has no legal right enforcing anything on that side of the border.

You really need to drop this "Israel is the victim" BS, because that lie is what is creating the violence.