What's new
US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Breeding terrorists through bad policy.

Daniyel

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
4,715
Reaction score
890
Points
245
Location
LA
Source for ME extremism?
Solving the conflict may have positive consequences including some negative consequences but no, I don't think it's THE source for extremism - the conflict is just what the people focus on when there's no pressing matters.
 

Shusha

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
12,258
Reaction score
1,782
Points
290
The cause of extremism is a particular Muslim/Arab ideology which states that Islam both must and can win (as a fulfillment of Allah's will) control of, eventually, the entire world and that violence is an acceptable method to achieve this goal. It is rooted in a religious theology, but it is the result of 7th century conquest thinking which has not adequately kept pace with modern humanitarian thinking.

The reason Israel is targeted is because Israel, being in the middle of the mess, is most loudly and urgently standing on the front lines say, "No, we can not and will not allow this ideology to spread. It is an ideology which has caused great harm in the past and we will stand against it. Never again."

The Palestinians serve as useful idiots who have become the symbol of justification for violence used against those who oppose the ideology of this particular brand of Islam. Its a reversal of victim and aggressor where Israel (read: Jews) becomes the evil that must be vanquished through violence and murder. Its an excuse for "ridding the world of evil" but defining 'evil' as the Jewish wish for our own self-determination and not to be under the rule of Islam, rather than defining 'evil' as the wish to put all peoples under Islamic rule because "that's the way Allah says it should be".




(Please note, I understand not all Muslims subscribe to this ideology).
 

Elvis Obama

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
852
Reaction score
140
Points
70
I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.

What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
 
OP
Tommy Tainant

Tommy Tainant

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
27,419
Reaction score
7,211
Points
290
Location
Y Cae Ras
I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.

What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
Fanaticism is an inherent human trait. It is present in every country and every faith. If only there was a pill that they could take.I agree with your final paragraph although it would take a brighter intellect than mine to pick a path through it.
I think that a lot of these countries get away with things because they have oil.
Look at Saudi Arabia ? How is their "model" acceptable in the modern world ?

A cruel and repressive regime that is backed up by the west and exports terrorism through the back door. In the last year Britain has sold them £6bn of weapons which they are using to destroy Yemen.
 

P F Tinmore

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
61,972
Reaction score
2,853
Points
1,815
Where have there been problems where we were not there stirring the pot?
 

MJB12741

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
12,826
Reaction score
2,255
Points
280
Where have there been problems where we were not there stirring the pot?

Eh, Tinmore. If you're so unhappy here in the USA with our policies, you are free to leave. Bon Voyage!
 

Dogmaphobe

Diamond Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
18,643
Reaction score
10,512
Points
1,295
Location
Or uh gun
We just need to understand here that the term "bad policy' for these haters really means "Jews existing".
 

Dogmaphobe

Diamond Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
18,643
Reaction score
10,512
Points
1,295
Location
Or uh gun
Where have there been problems where we were not there stirring the pot?

Arab terrorism against Jews predates the establishment of Israel by a considerable margin and at a time when the United States was not involved in the least, but don't let facts get in the way of your simple-minded propaganda, now, k?
 

Dogmaphobe

Diamond Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
18,643
Reaction score
10,512
Points
1,295
Location
Or uh gun
Not really.



I'm curious, pf.

Did you learn your Jew hatred from your parents those many long years ago, or did you develop it on your own due to intense feelings of inadequacy that resulted in your scapegoating a small ethnicity for all your considerable shortcomings?
 

RoccoR

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
10,815
Reaction score
2,963
Points
290
Location
Reynoldsburg, OH
Shusha, Elvis Obama, Tommy Tainant, et al,

There are a number of insightful commentaries here. But, I'm not sure that were are dogmatically stuck in a loop --- looking for the proverbial silver bullet. America has a tendency (ever since the post Vietnam era) to look for surgical tactics and expensive pinpoint targeting to address a target. Sometimes, we just need to drop the fancy stuff and adopt the time tested and successful volume of fire techniques (politically and militarily).

For better results, we need to readjust our application of humanitarian intervention and theories on human rights --- and concentrate on defeating the aggressor. You simply cannot use Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL) or attempt to apply Human Rights (HR) when combating DAESH (Salafi jihadist militant group that follows an Islamic fundamentalist -- ISIS/ISIL) or even HAMAS (a Sunni Islamic Resistance Movement). They have not been honorable in the past; and are not expected to suddenly become Customary IHL, HR.

The cause of extremism is a particular Muslim/Arab ideology which states that Islam both must and can win (as a fulfillment of Allah's will) control of, eventually, the entire world and that violence is an acceptable method to achieve this goal. It is rooted in a religious theology, but it is the result of 7th century conquest thinking which has not adequately kept pace with modern humanitarian thinking.
(COMMENT)

I don't disagree. But the real danger is that the interventionism of IHL and HR seriously handicap conventional methods of Terrorist, Jihadist, and Resistance activities that manipulate movements to contact and engagements that are prevented from tacking the necessary action that would culminate in a decisive victory.

We have seen the Arab Palestinian intentional launch rockets from densely populated areas; and ignoring Rule 23 (military objectives in densely populated areas). They do this not complying with Rule 24 (Removal of civilians) to render HAMAS hostile Palestinian Activity immune from attack:
  • If Israel responds, civilians will be killed and the Arab Palestinians lodge a complaint that Israel is:
∆ Disproportionally engaged.
∆ Intentionally targeting civilians.

The reason Israel is targeted is because Israel, being in the middle of the mess, is most loudly and urgently standing on the front lines say, "No, we can not and will not allow this ideology to spread. It is an ideology which has caused great harm in the past and we will stand against it. Never again."
(COMMENT)

This is a containment concept. And the attempt to prevent further contamination and the incitement; the harm has already been done. All IHL and HR do is prevent eradication of the contamination.

S/RES/1624 (2005)
Threats to international peace and security (Security Council Summit)

1. Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:

(a) Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
(b) Prevent such conduct;
(c) Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been guilty of such conduct;

Israel is targeted, not because it 's proximity (although that does play a part). But because, in may respects, it has been the vanguard in the fight against fundamentalist and radicalized Islamic Terrorist; a small but determined nation leading the way in the development of strategies to detect, exploit and neutralize (DEN) Jihadist (as self-proclaimed like HAMAS), terrorist, insurgents and asymmetric combatants that attempt to operate outside the Basic Tenant of the UN Charter (Article 2). Israel is directly engaged and locked in combat with, radical Islamic Resistance and associated groups that have declared Jihad. Fighting under the cover and concealment as Freedom Fighters, they attempt to Intimidates governments and the civilian populace to join in the fight against Jewish society; with the goal of destroying the Jewish National Home. Since before the Jewish State declared independence, the Arab League made it clear that they would never support the establishment of a Jewish State in any part of Palestine (as defined by the Palestine Order in Council).

As the tip of the spear, Israel and America are in the cross-hairs against radicalized Islam.

The Palestinians serve as useful idiots who have become the symbol of justification for violence used against those who oppose the ideology of this particular brand of Islam. Its a reversal of victim and aggressor where Israel (read: Jews) becomes the evil that must be vanquished through violence and murder. Its an excuse for "ridding the world of evil" but defining 'evil' as the Jewish wish for our own self-determination and not to be under the rule of Islam, rather than defining 'evil' as the wish to put all peoples under Islamic rule because "that's the way Allah says it should be".
(COMMENT)

Well, most conflicts have an element of demonization involved with the context of the struggle. The Arab-Israeli conflict is no different.

What is interesting is the Arab-Palestinian approach taken.
In most wars, the opposing forces represent two competing states. For the first 70 years (1918-1988) the Arab Palestinians only pretended to have a country. And even today, attempt to contradict the Surrender of the Ottoman-Turk Title and Rights on the territory to the Allied Powers. The Arab Palestinians will try to convince people that in the early years of the 20th Century (nearly a century ago) there was some sort of magic that granted sovereignty to the inhabitance. But they really did no have a independent state, although they could have if they had cooperated with the Mandatory Power.

One of the principle purposes of the Mandate, was to establish a Jewish National Home. Something the Jewish People from around the world could withdraw to, if the nation in which they reside used the color of law to persecute and oppress the Jewish People as a means of genocide and the confiscation of wealth and treasure. There were many Prominent Arab Palestinians that either actively fought against the Allied Powers in either WWI or WWII.

• Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti, was an Artillery Officer in the Ottoman Army, was criminally implicated in the 1920 Nebi Musa riots conspiracy, established himself in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. recruited for Muslims to join the SS, and was the Prime Minister in the All Palestine Government (APG).
• Ahmed Hilmi Abd al-Baqi, was a General Officer in the Ottoman Army, became President of the APG.
• Hasan Salama, Commander of the Palestinian Holy War Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, had been a special commando unit of the Waffen SS,
• Fawzi al-Qawuqji, Commander of the Arab Liberation Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, Graduate of the Military Academy (Kara Harp Okulu), was a Field Artillery Captain during WWI, was later a Wehrmacht Colonel, German Army WWII.
What is funny is that, more often then not, you hear the pro-Palestinian accuse the Jewish Immigrants of being NAZIs (as if their senior leadership was clean) and attempt to compare the Gaza Strip and West Bank ( ≈ 2,400 sq mi) to a WWII Warsaw Ghetto (smaller than 2 sq mi) (1940-1943) where ≈ 250,000 + Jews were put to death. In the last century (100 years), the Arab-Jewish Conflict has only resulted in less than 100,000 Arab-Palestinian deaths; from all sources.

I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.
What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
(COMMENT)

I'm not sure. Maybe our friend "Elvis Obama" has a point. But I tend to think that just as Osama bin Laden used it in his Open Letter to the American People (NOV 2002), right off the bat, he cites Palestine first among reasons; calling it an America's attack on Palestine. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a propaganda gold mine for the Arabs, anyone to use as a reason to jump on the bandwagon. The Arabs of Palestine don't need to be truthfully. Virtually everything they print will be believed and repeated over and over against until is takes on a life of its own.

Most Respectfully,
R​
 

Elvis Obama

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
852
Reaction score
140
Points
70
I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.

What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
Fanaticism is an inherent human trait. It is present in every country and every faith. If only there was a pill that they could take.I agree with your final paragraph although it would take a brighter intellect than mine to pick a path through it.
I think that a lot of these countries get away with things because they have oil.
Look at Saudi Arabia ? How is their "model" acceptable in the modern world ?

A cruel and repressive regime that is backed up by the west and exports terrorism through the back door. In the last year Britain has sold them £6bn of weapons which they are using to destroy Yemen.
Yeah, it is a human trait, and they're very dangerous. Media exploitation is a factor in building up extremism in the US. There was a constant drumbeat about irrelevant nonsense like militias and Waco and Ruby Ridge, then an extremist nut like Timothy McVeigh tells himself, "I must do what other want to do, but dare not!" Boom.

In the ME there is an entire culture to promote extremism, and far too few alternatives for young people to choose. A middle class is the greatest tool for marginalizing extremists. It will not remove the extremists, but it will rob them of their disaffected recruits. It will keep their forces small and in the shadows.

Modernization is the path towards secularism, a separation of church and state. That's a huge step that the ME has proven unable to take. Until they do, what can we do?
 

Elvis Obama

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
852
Reaction score
140
Points
70
Where have there been problems where we were not there stirring the pot?
Yeah, it's called globalization. So? The only important measure is how advanced countries are, culturally and technologically.The more advanced cultures dominate the less advanced, as they have throughout human history. Is it moral? Of course not. Does anyone really care? Sure. Can they do anything about it? No.
 

Elvis Obama

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
852
Reaction score
140
Points
70
Shusha, Elvis Obama, Tommy Tainant, et al,

There are a number of insightful commentaries here. But, I'm not sure that were are dogmatically stuck in a loop --- looking for the proverbial silver bullet. America has a tendency (ever since the post Vietnam era) to look for surgical tactics and expensive pinpoint targeting to address a target. Sometimes, we just need to drop the fancy stuff and adopt the time tested and successful volume of fire techniques (politically and militarily).

For better results, we need to readjust our application of humanitarian intervention and theories on human rights --- and concentrate on defeating the aggressor. You simply cannot use Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL) or attempt to apply Human Rights (HR) when combating DAESH (Salafi jihadist militant group that follows an Islamic fundamentalist -- ISIS/ISIL) or even HAMAS (a Sunni Islamic Resistance Movement). They have not been honorable in the past; and are not expected to suddenly become Customary IHL, HR.

The cause of extremism is a particular Muslim/Arab ideology which states that Islam both must and can win (as a fulfillment of Allah's will) control of, eventually, the entire world and that violence is an acceptable method to achieve this goal. It is rooted in a religious theology, but it is the result of 7th century conquest thinking which has not adequately kept pace with modern humanitarian thinking.
(COMMENT)

I don't disagree. But the real danger is that the interventionism of IHL and HR seriously handicap conventional methods of Terrorist, Jihadist, and Resistance activities that manipulate movements to contact and engagements that are prevented from tacking the necessary action that would culminate in a decisive victory.

We have seen the Arab Palestinian intentional launch rockets from densely populated areas; and ignoring Rule 23 (military objectives in densely populated areas). They do this not complying with Rule 24 (Removal of civilians) to render HAMAS hostile Palestinian Activity immune from attack:
  • If Israel responds, civilians will be killed and the Arab Palestinians lodge a complaint that Israel is:
∆ Disproportionally engaged.
∆ Intentionally targeting civilians.

The reason Israel is targeted is because Israel, being in the middle of the mess, is most loudly and urgently standing on the front lines say, "No, we can not and will not allow this ideology to spread. It is an ideology which has caused great harm in the past and we will stand against it. Never again."
(COMMENT)

This is a containment concept. And the attempt to prevent further contamination and the incitement; the harm has already been done. All IHL and HR do is prevent eradication of the contamination.

S/RES/1624 (2005)
Threats to international peace and security (Security Council Summit)

1. Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:

(a) Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
(b) Prevent such conduct;
(c) Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been guilty of such conduct;

Israel is targeted, not because it 's proximity (although that does play a part). But because, in may respects, it has been the vanguard in the fight against fundamentalist and radicalized Islamic Terrorist; a small but determined nation leading the way in the development of strategies to detect, exploit and neutralize (DEN) Jihadist (as self-proclaimed like HAMAS), terrorist, insurgents and asymmetric combatants that attempt to operate outside the Basic Tenant of the UN Charter (Article 2). Israel is directly engaged and locked in combat with, radical Islamic Resistance and associated groups that have declared Jihad. Fighting under the cover and concealment as Freedom Fighters, they attempt to Intimidates governments and the civilian populace to join in the fight against Jewish society; with the goal of destroying the Jewish National Home. Since before the Jewish State declared independence, the Arab League made it clear that they would never support the establishment of a Jewish State in any part of Palestine (as defined by the Palestine Order in Council).

As the tip of the spear, Israel and America are in the cross-hairs against radicalized Islam.

The Palestinians serve as useful idiots who have become the symbol of justification for violence used against those who oppose the ideology of this particular brand of Islam. Its a reversal of victim and aggressor where Israel (read: Jews) becomes the evil that must be vanquished through violence and murder. Its an excuse for "ridding the world of evil" but defining 'evil' as the Jewish wish for our own self-determination and not to be under the rule of Islam, rather than defining 'evil' as the wish to put all peoples under Islamic rule because "that's the way Allah says it should be".
(COMMENT)

Well, most conflicts have an element of demonization involved with the context of the struggle. The Arab-Israeli conflict is no different.

What is interesting is the Arab-Palestinian approach taken.
In most wars, the opposing forces represent two competing states. For the first 70 years (1918-1988) the Arab Palestinians only pretended to have a country. And even today, attempt to contradict the Surrender of the Ottoman-Turk Title and Rights on the territory to the Allied Powers. The Arab Palestinians will try to convince people that in the early years of the 20th Century (nearly a century ago) there was some sort of magic that granted sovereignty to the inhabitance. But they really did no have a independent state, although they could have if they had cooperated with the Mandatory Power.

One of the principle purposes of the Mandate, was to establish a Jewish National Home. Something the Jewish People from around the world could withdraw to, if the nation in which they reside used the color of law to persecute and oppress the Jewish People as a means of genocide and the confiscation of wealth and treasure. There were many Prominent Arab Palestinians that either actively fought against the Allied Powers in either WWI or WWII.

• Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti, was an Artillery Officer in the Ottoman Army, was criminally implicated in the 1920 Nebi Musa riots conspiracy, established himself in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. recruited for Muslims to join the SS, and was the Prime Minister in the All Palestine Government (APG).
• Ahmed Hilmi Abd al-Baqi, was a General Officer in the Ottoman Army, became President of the APG.
• Hasan Salama, Commander of the Palestinian Holy War Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, had been a special commando unit of the Waffen SS,
• Fawzi al-Qawuqji, Commander of the Arab Liberation Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, Graduate of the Military Academy (Kara Harp Okulu), was a Field Artillery Captain during WWI, was later a Wehrmacht Colonel, German Army WWII.
What is funny is that, more often then not, you hear the pro-Palestinian accuse the Jewish Immigrants of being NAZIs (as if their senior leadership was clean) and attempt to compare the Gaza Strip and West Bank ( ≈ 2,400 sq mi) to a WWII Warsaw Ghetto (smaller than 2 sq mi) (1940-1943) where ≈ 250,000 + Jews were put to death. In the last century (100 years), the Arab-Jewish Conflict has only resulted in less than 100,000 Arab-Palestinian deaths; from all sources.

I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.
What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
(COMMENT)

I'm not sure. Maybe our friend "Elvis Obama" has a point. But I tend to think that just as Osama bin Laden used it in his Open Letter to the American People (NOV 2002), right off the bat, he cites Palestine first among reasons; calling it an America's attack on Palestine. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a propaganda gold mine for the Arabs, anyone to use as a reason to jump on the bandwagon. The Arabs of Palestine don't need to be truthfully. Virtually everything they print will be believed and repeated over and over against until is takes on a life of its own.

Most Respectfully,
R​
"I'm not sure. Maybe our friend "Elvis Obama" has a point. But I tend to think that just as Osama bin Laden used it in his Open Letter to the American People (NOV 2002), right off the bat, he cites Palestine first among reasons; calling it an America's attack on Palestine. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a propaganda gold mine for the Arabs, anyone to use as a reason to jump on the bandwagon. The Arabs of Palestine don't need to be truthfully. Virtually everything they print will be believed and repeated over and over against until is takes on a life of its own."

Yeah, mystifying. We love to paint the Arabs as primitives, when they chop people's heads off, when they throw acid in the faces of little girls trying to go to school, when they persecute gay people, when they destroy antiquities, but when they're Palestinians, they're blameless victims of the evil Israelis. Give them credit, they've managed the PR well.

Unfortunately for them, the Palestinians are losing pals. The more the region falls into chaos, the less realistic concentrating on the Palestinians becomes. ISIS is fighting for hegemony, not the Palestinians. ISIS doesn't care about the UN. Even though they're pretty decent at PR themselves, it's for the purpose of building up a caliphate. Then they'll destroy Israel. Then we'll see what they make of the right of return. Hopefully none of that will come to pass, but the situation is a bit alarming. The Gulf States are comatose. Iraq and Syria are... you know. Establishing a new Arab state right now seems a long shot.
 

Billo_Really

Litre of the Band
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
31,149
Reaction score
2,596
Points
1,115
Location
Long Beach, Ca
The cause of extremism is a particular Muslim/Arab ideology which states that Islam both must and can win (as a fulfillment of Allah's will) control of, eventually, the entire world and that violence is an acceptable method to achieve this goal. It is rooted in a religious theology, but it is the result of 7th century conquest thinking which has not adequately kept pace with modern humanitarian thinking.

The reason Israel is targeted is because Israel, being in the middle of the mess, is most loudly and urgently standing on the front lines say, "No, we can not and will not allow this ideology to spread. It is an ideology which has caused great harm in the past and we will stand against it. Never again."

The Palestinians serve as useful idiots who have become the symbol of justification for violence used against those who oppose the ideology of this particular brand of Islam. Its a reversal of victim and aggressor where Israel (read: Jews) becomes the evil that must be vanquished through violence and murder. Its an excuse for "ridding the world of evil" but defining 'evil' as the Jewish wish for our own self-determination and not to be under the rule of Islam, rather than defining 'evil' as the wish to put all peoples under Islamic rule because "that's the way Allah says it should be".




(Please note, I understand not all Muslims subscribe to this ideology).
Islam is nothing more than another way people worship. It's a religion. That's all.

I find it strange that you so willingly shoot at people fishing (with a .50 cal), yet call Muslims extreme? That's a perfect example of how ridiculous the Zionist narrative is. Because shooting at someone while they fish, is pretty out there. Yet it doesn't even register a blip on your map.

Earth to Shusha,
Shooting at people while they fish, proliferates the violence.
Shooting at people while they farm, pisses people off.
Restricting the movement of an entire population of people, causes unrest.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian's via the occupation and blockade, is the cause of all the violence in the ME. All of it!

You people need to wake up and smell the coffee, little Suzy.
 

P F Tinmore

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
61,972
Reaction score
2,853
Points
1,815
Shusha, Elvis Obama, Tommy Tainant, et al,

There are a number of insightful commentaries here. But, I'm not sure that were are dogmatically stuck in a loop --- looking for the proverbial silver bullet. America has a tendency (ever since the post Vietnam era) to look for surgical tactics and expensive pinpoint targeting to address a target. Sometimes, we just need to drop the fancy stuff and adopt the time tested and successful volume of fire techniques (politically and militarily).

For better results, we need to readjust our application of humanitarian intervention and theories on human rights --- and concentrate on defeating the aggressor. You simply cannot use Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL) or attempt to apply Human Rights (HR) when combating DAESH (Salafi jihadist militant group that follows an Islamic fundamentalist -- ISIS/ISIL) or even HAMAS (a Sunni Islamic Resistance Movement). They have not been honorable in the past; and are not expected to suddenly become Customary IHL, HR.

The cause of extremism is a particular Muslim/Arab ideology which states that Islam both must and can win (as a fulfillment of Allah's will) control of, eventually, the entire world and that violence is an acceptable method to achieve this goal. It is rooted in a religious theology, but it is the result of 7th century conquest thinking which has not adequately kept pace with modern humanitarian thinking.
(COMMENT)

I don't disagree. But the real danger is that the interventionism of IHL and HR seriously handicap conventional methods of Terrorist, Jihadist, and Resistance activities that manipulate movements to contact and engagements that are prevented from tacking the necessary action that would culminate in a decisive victory.

We have seen the Arab Palestinian intentional launch rockets from densely populated areas; and ignoring Rule 23 (military objectives in densely populated areas). They do this not complying with Rule 24 (Removal of civilians) to render HAMAS hostile Palestinian Activity immune from attack:
  • If Israel responds, civilians will be killed and the Arab Palestinians lodge a complaint that Israel is:
∆ Disproportionally engaged.
∆ Intentionally targeting civilians.

The reason Israel is targeted is because Israel, being in the middle of the mess, is most loudly and urgently standing on the front lines say, "No, we can not and will not allow this ideology to spread. It is an ideology which has caused great harm in the past and we will stand against it. Never again."
(COMMENT)

This is a containment concept. And the attempt to prevent further contamination and the incitement; the harm has already been done. All IHL and HR do is prevent eradication of the contamination.

S/RES/1624 (2005)
Threats to international peace and security (Security Council Summit)

1. Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:

(a) Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
(b) Prevent such conduct;
(c) Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been guilty of such conduct;

Israel is targeted, not because it 's proximity (although that does play a part). But because, in may respects, it has been the vanguard in the fight against fundamentalist and radicalized Islamic Terrorist; a small but determined nation leading the way in the development of strategies to detect, exploit and neutralize (DEN) Jihadist (as self-proclaimed like HAMAS), terrorist, insurgents and asymmetric combatants that attempt to operate outside the Basic Tenant of the UN Charter (Article 2). Israel is directly engaged and locked in combat with, radical Islamic Resistance and associated groups that have declared Jihad. Fighting under the cover and concealment as Freedom Fighters, they attempt to Intimidates governments and the civilian populace to join in the fight against Jewish society; with the goal of destroying the Jewish National Home. Since before the Jewish State declared independence, the Arab League made it clear that they would never support the establishment of a Jewish State in any part of Palestine (as defined by the Palestine Order in Council).

As the tip of the spear, Israel and America are in the cross-hairs against radicalized Islam.

The Palestinians serve as useful idiots who have become the symbol of justification for violence used against those who oppose the ideology of this particular brand of Islam. Its a reversal of victim and aggressor where Israel (read: Jews) becomes the evil that must be vanquished through violence and murder. Its an excuse for "ridding the world of evil" but defining 'evil' as the Jewish wish for our own self-determination and not to be under the rule of Islam, rather than defining 'evil' as the wish to put all peoples under Islamic rule because "that's the way Allah says it should be".
(COMMENT)

Well, most conflicts have an element of demonization involved with the context of the struggle. The Arab-Israeli conflict is no different.

What is interesting is the Arab-Palestinian approach taken.
In most wars, the opposing forces represent two competing states. For the first 70 years (1918-1988) the Arab Palestinians only pretended to have a country. And even today, attempt to contradict the Surrender of the Ottoman-Turk Title and Rights on the territory to the Allied Powers. The Arab Palestinians will try to convince people that in the early years of the 20th Century (nearly a century ago) there was some sort of magic that granted sovereignty to the inhabitance. But they really did no have a independent state, although they could have if they had cooperated with the Mandatory Power.

One of the principle purposes of the Mandate, was to establish a Jewish National Home. Something the Jewish People from around the world could withdraw to, if the nation in which they reside used the color of law to persecute and oppress the Jewish People as a means of genocide and the confiscation of wealth and treasure. There were many Prominent Arab Palestinians that either actively fought against the Allied Powers in either WWI or WWII.

• Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti, was an Artillery Officer in the Ottoman Army, was criminally implicated in the 1920 Nebi Musa riots conspiracy, established himself in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. recruited for Muslims to join the SS, and was the Prime Minister in the All Palestine Government (APG).
• Ahmed Hilmi Abd al-Baqi, was a General Officer in the Ottoman Army, became President of the APG.
• Hasan Salama, Commander of the Palestinian Holy War Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, had been a special commando unit of the Waffen SS,
• Fawzi al-Qawuqji, Commander of the Arab Liberation Army during the 1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence, Graduate of the Military Academy (Kara Harp Okulu), was a Field Artillery Captain during WWI, was later a Wehrmacht Colonel, German Army WWII.
What is funny is that, more often then not, you hear the pro-Palestinian accuse the Jewish Immigrants of being NAZIs (as if their senior leadership was clean) and attempt to compare the Gaza Strip and West Bank ( ≈ 2,400 sq mi) to a WWII Warsaw Ghetto (smaller than 2 sq mi) (1940-1943) where ≈ 250,000 + Jews were put to death. In the last century (100 years), the Arab-Jewish Conflict has only resulted in less than 100,000 Arab-Palestinian deaths; from all sources.

I'd say quite a pocket of change has already dropped. Frankly, the Israeli/Palestinian mess is pretty inconsequential, in the macabre science of compiling body counts. Let's hope it stays that way.
What is the source of extremism, though? Fanaticism. A lack of better options. Or you could say is is the existence of Israel. There is no solution except to turn these countries into modern nations. Nations that exist to serve the needs of their people. Then their young people will have better things to do than blow up stuff to the glory of Allah.
(COMMENT)

I'm not sure. Maybe our friend "Elvis Obama" has a point. But I tend to think that just as Osama bin Laden used it in his Open Letter to the American People (NOV 2002), right off the bat, he cites Palestine first among reasons; calling it an America's attack on Palestine. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a propaganda gold mine for the Arabs, anyone to use as a reason to jump on the bandwagon. The Arabs of Palestine don't need to be truthfully. Virtually everything they print will be believed and repeated over and over against until is takes on a life of its own.

Most Respectfully,
R​
Israel is targeted, not because it 's proximity (although that does play a part). But because, in may respects, it has been the vanguard in the fight against, blah, blah, blah...​

All of that bullshit aside, Israel gets targeted because it is in Palestine.
 

theliq

Platinum Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
13,805
Reaction score
4,297
Points
360
Location
Australia,Mullaloo
Source for ME extremism?
Solving the conflict may have positive consequences including some negative consequences but no, I don't think it's THE source for extremism - the conflict is just what the people focus on when there's no pressing matters.
Danny,this is not extremism but ISIS and their Hordes are,here Israel should be concerned,,steve
 

USMB Server Goals

Total amount
$515.00
Goal
$350.00

New Topics

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top