Brain Dead Justifies Murder

Flanders

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Let me begin by saying that I could have put this thread in the Law and Justice forum. I posted it in this forum after deciding the premise is more about ethics than it is about law or religion.

The heart wrenching tragedy of Jahi McMath is worse than most “life-support” stories because all-powerful doctors and hospitals did it too her. You can be certain the tragedy will be compounded after the culture of death crowd marshals it forces —— the courts, the mainstream media, the “brain dead lobby” and the euthanasia crowd. They will all line up to end Jahi’s life. Brain dead is always the justification:


“As I am an expert in biblical theology, including Greek and Hebrew, with respect to the question of what evangelical Christians believe about death, I might be able to be of assistance in the way of providing expert testimony about what the conservative biblical tradition to which Ms. McMath’s mother belongs actually teaches, which is that death is defined not as absence of brain waves but rather the lack of a circulating blood supply,” he wrote.

“As the Bible states that the life of the flesh is in the blood (citing Leviticus in the Hebrew Scriptures) and not in brain wave activity, perhaps a compromise stipulation could be presented to ask the court to order that if Ms. McMath is disconnected from life support, if her heart continues to beat on its own that she should be maintained by fluid nutrition at the hospital’s expense, given that the hospital’s negligence is the proximate cause of this difficulty.”

Welty told WND that the Bible doesn’t define death as a cessation, reduction or absence of brain activity.

It defines life as being in the blood, and “as a closely held religious belief,” the family of the 13-year-old has a right to practice their faith.

Theologian: 'Brain-dead' doesn't really count
Offers to act as expert witness in case of 13-year-old incapacitated during surgery
Published: 15 hours ago
BOB UNRUH

Theologian: ?Brain-dead? doesn?t really count
The culture of death pins the success of its agenda on “brain dead.” There is much about brain dead that always troubled me. Long before I knew that the Bible “. . . defines life as being in the blood . . .” I said there is a false belief that says thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. originate in the brain. I’ve never been convinced that that is the case. When you cut your finger an impulse is sent to the brain telling you to feel the pain in your finger. The paralyzing fear a person feels in the pit of their stomach as their car skids towards an oncoming truck doesn’t originate in the brain. So who can deny that thoughts are only processed by the brain originating elsewhere as in pain or fear?

The brain is a processor and doesn’t feel pain. Even if it can be shown beyond a doubt that there is pain when the brain is not functioning the answer is painkillers not euthanasia.

Incidentally, those who would kill the brain dead always say the patient is not feeling pain.

NOTE: Sci-fi myth says that computers (machines) will someday be capable of original thought. Not only is it nonsense it is political propaganda. Computers are processors. They function like a brain. Computers are silent until someone sends them instructions. The artificial intelligence mavens will have to prove that a computer is feeling physical pain before they convince me they know what they are talking about.

In the unlikely event a court orders the hospital to keep Jahi McMath alive ——at the hospital’s expense —— you can bet that the euthanasia crowd will be screaming about the government interfering in our lives. Of course, it is not government interference when a judge orders the removal of a feeding tube.

How can anyone say that brain dead also excludes the pleasure and curiosity that triggers giggles in an infant? The euthanasia crowd will never admit to that possibility because they only speak for themselves. They assume that because they don’t want to live in a so-called vegetative state no one else does either.

What I’m trying to say is that a vegetative state is a physical thing with no proof that thoughts and emotions aren’t alive and well somewhere else. The Chinese always thought that the liver was the most important organ. Christians assigned courage and cowardliness to the heart: “He has the heart of a lion” or “He’s fainthearted.” To me that shows that there has always been a suspicion that thoughts and emotions reside someplace other than the brain. I never heard of any great body of thought that put the brain at the center of life. Those who believe in euthanasia are the only ones making that claim. I don’t consider their ideology a great body of thought.

Let’s take a look at euthanasia’s connection to totalitarianism.

Conquerors throughout history were totalitarians. For the most part they conquered and enslaved the vanquished. The conquered treated as spoils of war is pretty much a thing of the past. Totalitarians have accepted cheap labor as the inevitable substitute for slavery. Cheap labor is so plentiful it forced totalitarians to take an approach other than conquest in their drive to control life and the Earth’s resources. When slavery began to disappear totalitarians flirted with the pseudo-science of eugenics. Now they’ve moved their efforts to euthanasia. Euthanasia is an incremental step toward resurrecting eugenics.

As in everything else, there is never a shortage of misguided sign-carriers willing to demonstrate against their own best interests —— life itself.

The law

The person who actually pulls the plug commits murder. Let me explain with a slightly edited excerpt from a message I posted about Terri Schiavo back in March of 2005:


I’d like to know who removed the feeding tube? And why the hell weren’t they arrested? TV viewers are bombarded with government propaganda depicting hard-hitting cops and district attorneys ever-ready to lockup the bad guys, yet someone commits a deliberate act that will lead to the death of another person and there are no cops or district attorneys in sight. In fact, the policeman on duty in Terri’s room was told to leave the room so he would not be a witness called to identify the murderer. In addition, judges in Terri’s case may very well be guilty of aiding and abetting a premeditated homicide.

Someone in authority at Terri’s hospice should have told those judges: “If you want that feeding tube removed come and do it yourself.” The Socialist priests in our courts issue orders while making damn sure that real blood doesn’t soil their precious robes. And don’t compare the court-ordered murder of an innocent woman to the execution of a criminal after a decade or more of tax dollar funded appeals. In any event Terri Schiavo didn’t hurt anyone, but she was killed without her consent anyway.

I know that if I worked at Terri’s hospice and someone ordered me to remove the lady’s feeding tube I would have told them where to shove the job. By exonerating the person that did the act, are not the courts endorsing the Nazi defense? I was following orders. Bottom line: The courts must always judge the act not the justification.

One of the arguments I’ve heard for killing Terri cites her Right to abstain from receiving artificial life support. The word abstain was actually used. Of all of the sick perversions in this tragedy the abstain claim is the worst; more so since no one knew what Terri wanted. The government does not allow Americans to abstain from anything these days, now it appears that an exception has been made to accommodate the Grim Reaper.

And of course there is always this: “America is a nation of laws.” What a joke that is. America is a nation of judges issuing orders. Neither judges nor anyone else had the Right to end Terri’s life just because she couldn’t speak for herself.

Finally, the Left is forever citing the Nazis as the only villains in the twentieth century. Some try to equate conservatives to Nazis, yet a close look always shows that Socialists are the Nazi clones. Not punishing Terri Schiavo’s murderer is only one such example.
Everything I said about Terri Schiavo can be applied to Jahi McMath.

NOTE: Under no circumstances should a free people ever give their government the authority to kill for “humane reasons.” Governments begin with whatever is fashionable ——brain dead in America’s case —— and end with killing the physically and mentally impaired. Fashionable abortion is already evolving into killing children in the Netherlands. “Quality of life” replaces brain dead as justification. That’s why I’ve always said the Nazi occupation in WWII was the last good thing to happen in Holland.

Let me close with a bit of gallows humor:

Parts of the human body had a meeting to decide who was in charge.

"I should be in charge," said the brain, "because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood, "because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd all waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach," because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs, "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum, "Because I'm responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum and insulted him; so in a huff he shut down tight.

Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood was toxic. They quickly decided that the rectum should be the boss.

The moral of the story?

The asshole is usually in charge!​
 

Delta4Embassy

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Brain death shouldn't matter or define life. We don't bury conservatives afterall. ...Sorry, humour is my defense mechanism.

This girl's state has gone on now for over 2 weeks. If the parents wanna pay to keep her body functioning, except her brain, that's up to them. I'm unfamiliar with brain death issues as to whether anyone's ever 'come back,' but if her heart's pumping blood to her brain then it has the oxygen it needs. Maybe that'd be sufficient to stave off brain damage. But I think we're well into uncharted territory now and any miraculous recovery would be unprecedented. And even if brain activity resumed it's a question how damaged her brain would be. Whether enough of her would be left that she's like the daughter she was before.

Everything in the body heals with time, and as we know now even brain cells can grow back contrary to what some have been saying on tv. Google 'can neurons grow back?' to see the latest discoveries.

Google,
has anyone ever come back after being declared brain dead?

Seems there are some cases.
 
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syrenn

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The parents have said over and over..... they want god to work a miracle.

fine.... take her off human medical support....and LET GOD work it out.



All this is... is parents not wanting to let go....and also looking for a HUGE pay out. They got their second and third opinions.... and the nursing home that had initially said they would take her have backed out.....

I am all for sending her home with the parents.
 

mudwhistle

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Brain death shouldn't matter or define life. We don't bury conservatives afterall. ...Sorry, humour is my defense mechanism.

This girl's state has gone on now for over 2 weeks. If the parents wanna pay to keep her body functioning, except her brain, that's up to them. I'm unfamiliar with brain death issues as to whether anyone's ever 'come back,' but if her heart's pumping blood to her brain then it has the oxygen it needs. Maybe that'd be sufficient to stave off brain damage. But I think we're well into uncharted territory now and any miraculous recovery would be unprecedented. And even if brain activity resumed it's a question how damaged her brain would be. Whether enough of her would be left that she's like the daughter she was before.

Everything in the body heals with time, and as we know now even brain cells can grow back contrary to what some have been saying on tv. Google 'can neurons grow back?' to see the latest discoveries.

Google,
has anyone ever come back after being declared brain dead?

Seems there are some cases.
The only thing in the body that can heal completely and even regrow missing parts is the liver. Some damage cannot be repaired.
 

whitehall

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Brain dead is a legal definition of deceased. Regardless of the plethora of zombie movies you can't kill a person who is already dead. Society visited the concept a few years when a person alleged to be in a coma was deprived of food and water and died despite efforts of her family to prevent the intentional killing enforced by armed guards. Democrats applauded the murder of Terry Schiavo as a new concept in human behavior.
 

Mr Clean

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There's big difference between living and being alive.
 

Katzndogz

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Don't over analyze. You can't murder someone who is brain dead, because they are deceased and you can't murder someone who is already deceased. If you were to come upon the victim of a car accident and it was obvious they had been dead for awhile when you stabbed them in the heart, you would not have murdered them. It would be attempted murder but not murder.

The case of Jahi is different from Terri Schiavo in that Schiavo was not on life support. She was not on a ventilator, nothing was pumping her blood. She was breathing on her own, her heart was pumping on its own. Her brain was still regulating auto anatomical functions. She needed a feeding tube mostly because her husband successfully opposed the swallowing therapy that would have let her eat normally.

Jahi is brain dead, not only does her brain show no activity, but her brain stem shows no activity. The brain is controlling nothing, not even auto anatomical functions.

Brain cells do not grow back, nor do they regenerate. What can happen is that the neural pathways can be reformed. If someone has a stroke and part of their brain ceases to function, they cannot walk. The function that controls walking will reform using a part of the brain that is still healthy. The destroyed part does not heal.

This family is not sophisticated, knowledgeable, nor educated. They think she is asleep and God can wake her up. They do not understand the idea of brain death or how it affects the body. They see her breathing, they see the heart monitor recording the beats. To them she is still alive but asleep. They don't understand that her body isn't breathing, her heart isn't pumping. It's the machines that are doing it. Many times brain dead is confused with coma. People in a coma come back all the time. My mother was in a coma for three months before she woke up. People say brain dead when what they really mean is coma. That's where this family is confused. They think its the same thing.

I feel terribly sorry for them and I feel sorry for almost no one. They need lots of prayers for them to come to grips with the fact that their little girl is gone.
 

Wry Catcher

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I can't presume to know what the parents are feeling and can't imagine the horror of watching my child in a similar situation. I do believe the situation for the child to live a 'normal' life is over, and I don't blame the doctors at Children's Hospital. They have many 'miracles' in their resume.

That said, the death of a child under the circumstances as we are lead to believe has the potential to provide life and a greater quality of life to others living less than a normal life. Let the organs of the child live on in others!
 

Delta4Embassy

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The girl may be dead, but I'm not convinced she's gone. If all it takes for her to open her eyes and talk is brain activity, then zap her with some juice. Thoughts are just electrical impulses leaping between neurons afterall, if the rest of her body's alive and functioning, even with mechanical aide, and all that isn't working is her brain, zap the brain with some electricity and see if the current becomes self-sustaining.

Try everything before giving up. There is no heaven or afterlife. Don't accept death until everything's been tried.

The hospital screwed up and wants this to all go away. They wanna get sued and settle as quickly as possible as this daily coverage is hurting their bottom line. If another facility wants to take the girl in and keep her body functioning do it. Stranger things have happened like people freezing their heads hoping for eventual resuscitation. And if she does somehow recover, can you imagine how that would negatively effect the medical industry? All of a sudden people that are declared dead maybe aren't really dead any more. So naturally to prevent things like that the hospital has a vested interest in making sure she stays dead. Consequently they're the last ones anyone should be listening to.
 
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Vox

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legally and medically braind dead is DEAD.

she is dead and won't ever "wake up". She can only be buried.

Unfortunately.

The condition she is in is only a partial blame for the medical personnel. The main blame lies with her mother and family who made this girl extremely obese and because of that she suffered severe obstructive sleep apnea which was the reason she had series of operative measures undertaken. Operations are not benign procedures - they ALWAYS have the potential risk of bleeding and bleeding after tonsillectomy can be fatal even in a normal child, but in the child with severe obstructive sleep apnea ( which means she does not have any reserves when needed and desaturates in seconds) and extremely obese make this combination almost 100% lethal as securing the airway in this situation is almost impossible - you need an emergency tracheostomy and that takes time - minutes, but in the situation of a patient like this it is a verdict.

and that is what happened. It is extremely tragic for the family, but the girl has passed away. having her on a vent won't bring her back.
Let her go. May she rest in peace.
 

Vox

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The girl may be dead, but I'm not convinced she's gone. If all it takes for her to open her eyes and talk is brain activity, then zap her with some juice. Thoughts are just electrical impulses leaping between neurons afterall, if the rest of her body's alive and functioning, even with mechanical aide, and all that isn't working is her brain, zap the brain with some electricity and see if the current becomes self-sustaining.

Try everything before giving up. There is no heaven or afterlife. Don't accept death until everything's been tried.

The hospital screwed up and wants this to all go away. They wanna get sued and settle as quickly as possible as this daily coverage is hurting their bottom line. If another facility wants to take the girl in and keep her body functioning do it. Stranger things have happened like people freezing their heads hoping for eventual resuscitation. And if she does somehow recover, can you imagine how that would negatively effect the medical industry? All of a sudden people that are declared dead maybe aren't really dead any more. So naturally to prevent things like that the hospital has a vested interest in making sure she stays dead. Consequently they're the last ones anyone should be listening to.
there is nothing left. brain death is a legal definition of death in the US.
nothing can be done and it won't.
 
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Flanders

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Regardless of the plethora of zombie movies you can't kill a person who is already dead.
legally and medically braind dead is DEAD.

she is dead and won't ever "wake up". She can only be buried.
To whitehall and Vox: If that’s the case why not bury her as is? In short: Bury her alive since there is still life in her body.

Unfortunately for the brain dead crowd, burying her alive might upset too many people, not to mention triggering a charge of murder. Killing what life there is before burial would be the humane thing to do, but there too the charge of murder is present.
 

Vox

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Regardless of the plethora of zombie movies you can't kill a person who is already dead.
legally and medically braind dead is DEAD.

she is dead and won't ever "wake up". She can only be buried.
To whitehall and Vox: If that’s the case why not bury her as is? In short: Bury her alive since there is still life in her body.

Unfortunately for the brain dead crowd, burying her alive might upset too many people, not to mention triggering a charge of murder. Killing what life there is before burial would be the humane thing to do, but there too the charge of murder is present.
she is not alive. her heart is stilll beating and her organs ( some of them) are still functioning because she is mechanically ventilated.
the moment the vent is off she will die ( by conventional thinking) as she is not able to breathe on her own - she is dead. her heart will stop even with a vent eventually - her body is being ventilated and her heart is still beating, but nothing else is being done - she is legally and medically dead.
She should be taken off the vent and buried.

Nobody will charge murder - don't hold your breath. She is legally DEAD. brain death is a LEGAL definition of death in the US.
She is dead from the moment she was declared brain dead.
 
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rightwinger

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Let the poor girl go

It is cruel to put her through this
 

Katzndogz

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The girl isn't being put through anything. She's been dead for two weeks. The only charge if there is one would be assaulting a corpse, or many corpse vandalism. Since she has been kept ventillated and machines have taken over the auto anatomical functions, her organs can still be transplanted. That's about all.
 

Katzndogz

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The girl may be dead, but I'm not convinced she's gone. If all it takes for her to open her eyes and talk is brain activity, then zap her with some juice. Thoughts are just electrical impulses leaping between neurons afterall, if the rest of her body's alive and functioning, even with mechanical aide, and all that isn't working is her brain, zap the brain with some electricity and see if the current becomes self-sustaining.

Try everything before giving up. There is no heaven or afterlife. Don't accept death until everything's been tried.

The hospital screwed up and wants this to all go away. They wanna get sued and settle as quickly as possible as this daily coverage is hurting their bottom line. If another facility wants to take the girl in and keep her body functioning do it. Stranger things have happened like people freezing their heads hoping for eventual resuscitation. And if she does somehow recover, can you imagine how that would negatively effect the medical industry? All of a sudden people that are declared dead maybe aren't really dead any more. So naturally to prevent things like that the hospital has a vested interest in making sure she stays dead. Consequently they're the last ones anyone should be listening to.
Frankenstein was only a movie. No, zapping a corpse with some juice will not bring them back to life.
 

Katzndogz

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Regardless of the plethora of zombie movies you can't kill a person who is already dead.
legally and medically braind dead is DEAD.

she is dead and won't ever "wake up". She can only be buried.
To whitehall and Vox: If that’s the case why not bury her as is? In short: Bury her alive since there is still life in her body.

Unfortunately for the brain dead crowd, burying her alive might upset too many people, not to mention triggering a charge of murder. Killing what life there is before burial would be the humane thing to do, but there too the charge of murder is present.
There is no life in her body. She is gone and has been gone for two weeks.
 

AquaAthena

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Regardless of the plethora of zombie movies you can't kill a person who is already dead.
legally and medically braind dead is DEAD.

she is dead and won't ever "wake up". She can only be buried.
To whitehall and Vox: If that’s the case why not bury her as is? In short: Bury her alive since there is still life in her body.

Unfortunately for the brain dead crowd, burying her alive might upset too many people, not to mention triggering a charge of murder. Killing what life there is before burial would be the humane thing to do, but there too the charge of murder is present.
There is no life in her body. She is gone and has been gone for two weeks.
And 3 physicians agreed, there is no life in her body. It is time to let her go, unless a benevolent donation is received to let her die in perpetuity...
 

Katzndogz

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The unfortunate circumstance is that the family hired their own doctor to examine her and got up the money to pay that doctor. That doctor said there was no brain activity at all, not in the brain, not in the brain stem. That's pretty final. The child is dead. Let her go, perform an exhaustive autopsy to determine what went wrong and carry on from there.
 

rightwinger

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The girl isn't being put through anything. She's been dead for two weeks. The only charge if there is one would be assaulting a corpse, or many corpse vandalism. Since she has been kept ventillated and machines have taken over the auto anatomical functions, her organs can still be transplanted. That's about all.
Modern medicine can keep a body going indefinitely. Once the brain is gone, it is not coming back

Just because you can keep a body alive doesn't mean you should
 

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