bloodiest day in bagdhad since 'end of aggression'

[spillmind]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031028/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

i hate to sound like a broken record, but...

 

[jimnyc]

You do sound like a broken record, and it comes off as if you are gloating yet again over terrible news.

Did you gloat and say "I told you so" when the terrorists crashed 2 planes into the World Trade Center and killed 3,000 citizens? Did you gloat when they crashed a plane into the Pentagon and downed a plane in Pennsylvania?

There wasn't much of a difference in these suicide attacks. This time it was volunteer organizations and Iraqi citizens. Does that somehow make the acts not worthy of condemning? Your mindset seems to be a bit warped and you've now forgotten the difference between right and wrong. Your desire to claim the USA is wrong for it's actions has blinded you to the facts of why we are there. These acts are prime examples of EXACTLY why we are there.

Although unrealistic, I respect those that are anti-war and wish for nothing more than peace. I haven't a problem with those that are dead set against any type of actions against foreign countries for humanitarian reasons.

I do have a problem with those that condemn war and gloat over the deaths of our soldiers solely because of what political administration is running the White House.

So get a clue, my liberal friend. This will not deter the USA. The campaign will continue. When the USA hands the reigns back over to the Iraqi people they will be much better off for our actions. You cannot rid them of all their evil, but they will certainly now be free to decide that for themselves. Saddam and his regime are gone and will not be coming back to power. Many lives have been lost and more will follow in order to help them attain their freedom and live peaceful lives. I salute all the soldiers and citizens alike for their bravery against these cowardly opponents.

 

[5stringJeff]

What a great way to celebrate the beginning of Ramadan! Sure makes we want to convert!

 

[spillmind]

um... i'm not gloating. and i *am* condemning this attack!!

you think i am dancing around and celebrating? get real. honestly.

it seems so profoundly amazing to me that you people STILL DON'T GET IT.

IRAQ IS NOT GOING TO HOUSE A DEMOCRATIC, WESTERN SERVING DEMOCRACY. not now, not ever.

this attempt at a surrogate israel is costly in terms of lives and in funds, and there will never be stability there! there are too many neighboring hostile countries!

until we find an energy solution, we will continue to funnel money and energy into this region. even still, the saudis have amassed so much wealth, they will still be right there.

spare me the liberal friend bullshit. this is COMMON SENSE people!!!! just look at the history!

 

[metanoia2k]

jimny said:

"I respect those that are anti-war and wish for nothing more than peace..."

tsk-tsk, Jimmy...you go to hell for lying...

 

[Creek]

Yes..the attack was terrible to say the least Spillmind...Being honest...I probly do aggree we cant have a working government as we do here in the U.S...A Democratic Government.........The thing is now what do we do?...I'm glad steps ..and progress is being made to hand control back to the Iraqi people...I do fear civil war there if the U.S backs out now...or too soon.......I'm in no way saying all is fine..and dandy...Alot of people are still dying there...U.S..and Iraqi...some small outside influnce from other countries such as Syria..and Iran will try to hamper things...Iraq wants it's country back...and we're making progress in doing so....


I'm not telling you this is gona be easy..but we gota ride this out...and I pray to God all ends well for the Iraqi people..and the U.S. to get back home also......Only time will tell...and we can't be so negative on this...Telling us it's all over for any chance of peace there..is turning your back on the Iraqi people....Only supporting the U.S..is the only chance left...Yes..it was a chance to start this war..and death...but for those who died,and will die...just saying all negative things is not helping the situation......

That's my two bits...no offence...

Creek

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by metanoia2k
jimny said:

"I respect those that are anti-war and wish for nothing more than peace..."

tsk-tsk, Jimmy...you go to hell for lying...

Do I strike you as someone that is afraid to type exactly how I feel?

It's actually quite rare to find a "peace loving" person that isn't biased by their political loyalties. Should such a diamond in the rough be found, you'll see nothing but respect from my part.

I may not agree with them, but at least their beliefs aren't blinded.

 

[Creek]

Jim says it like it is...If any of you would in a nice manner tell us how you feel...and be a little more compassionate...you wouldnt feel so threatened..and intimidated......

Jim is the most opened minded person at this board...and bends over backwards trying to express his point of view..in a mannerly fassion.........Now c'mon now people...be nice!!....or you'll deal with me....(smile).....

 

[jimnyc]

Jim is the most opened minded person at this board

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Let's not exaggerate to much!

Thanks for your kind words, Creek.

 

[Creek]

(smile)..I may sit and not post much for long periods of time...and that's gona change!!...I'm with ya buddy!!...Now lets get this army back on the road...Oh..I'm gona make some U.S. Message Board Day Care banners for fun..Have little babies on them!!!..(smile)

 

[spillmind]

a little too much back slapping for a truly grim reality.

creek: i'm glad you renounced your role of a militie leader, yet i still wonder-

anyway:

'The thing is now what do we do?...'

well discounting the fact that people still think that we would have perished from saddam-terror by now, i don't think this should have happened in the first place PERIOD.

as time goes on, the problems not only continue, but grow exponentially, those who were staunch proponents of this aggression are slowly but surely backing off the gung ho operation liberation iraq (thank god).

many of these people (that are not resigned to apathy) are seeing the (redundant) reality in iraq, more killings, escalated violence, with no legitimate REASON for optimism- and are seeing the light. (as blindingly bright as it has been to my common sense)

there ain't jack we can do now... things are so chaotic and dissent is so high, that we have gone down a terrible path and are now committed to it. just don't be suprised to see the violence GET WORSE.

and i won't say i told you so, because we all know it.

i repeat:

at best in iraq: a demilitarized zone in iraq gaurding oil supplies while the unstable surrogate government struggles with power. why is it that the people weren't fighting saddam as hard as they are fighting their 'liberators'? easy answer to me, and no coincidence.

i think all of us here have a conscience, and realise what is right and wrong, and see the mess in iraq, and somewhere know that thing's aren't right.

so next time, i guess we won't follow our lobbyist sponsored corrupt politicians into a quagmire of bullshit? probably not.

so much for that 'war on terror' sheesh... as much of a joke as the 'war on drugs'.

here's to NT :cof: and his dreams of owning that 'awesome' H2

 

[Creek]

Very nicely stated Spillmind...It leaves a hard answer back on my behalf...
In reality,and how the situation looks now..does look grim,and a path we shouldnt of possibly gone down in the first place.....being ..or should say I'm trying to stay as positive as I can on this crisis...Yes..it's a crisis alright...a mess of the worst sort..especialy the death...Yes..Innocent Iraqis...almost feels like murder......It does when not an Iraqi soul threatened the life of any American on our soil...that they pay the price of an invation by the U.S....It's also something that I believe this war would never have happened with Clinton in office..or a Democrat..........

The stage was all set after 911 for wars,attacks..and invasions....by the U.S....Ya know what really will be a bigger mess....if for some reason now that the U.S. has to go to war,and the reason is just...The world will see any part of any future part of a U.S. force anywhere..as we are a waring country.......

I care about all this...and want the killing to stop......That what this whole war is...is kiliing more than a war,and I feel outaplace alot at times...cause I can't believe..or understand why people can't live together in peace...

I'm a good guy..not a miltia leader..(smile)...Actualy too good hearted...and love flower,and vegetable gardening....nature..and peace.My heart gets sad cause there are people in this world with hearts as cold as ice...killing one another....I wish I could do something to make it a better place......Great posting Spillmind......!

 

[Creek]

..I do support our troops,and commander in chief....and what we have to do..to finish this Iraq crisis....

I'm just bothered...and worry that trying to create a Democracy there..is almost as hopeless..as establishing Christianity there....How many will die in something that might not work in the first place like Spillmind said...?..

Yes..this Iraq thing bothers me.........I also believe we have to take action on these countries/governments that support attacks against us...but how far do we go by changing their whole political way of life in these muslim countries....It's mind boggling.....it's like King Richard said.."It's sanity to think you can change a mans belief by the sword"....their government is their religion........This also could be the begining of a new Iraq...a better one...but things look confusing...(smile)...

...

 

[Amras]

IRAQ IS NOT GOING TO HOUSE A DEMOCRATIC, WESTERN SERVING DEMOCRACY. not now, not ever.

No matter how we look at the conflict, the US must succeed. If not then entire region will be seriously destabilized and this would have consequences for all of us.

Iraq is a fragile construction that was left behind by the British who defined the territorial limits of Iraq with little correspondence to natural frontiers or traditional tribal and ethnic settlements. The history of Iraq is a long story of coups, instability and war.
Democracy is nice and all, but to date no one is able to offer a solution to bring that multi-ethnic multi-sectarian society into a representative government that will remain stable.

What a huge burden! Are you sure that you don't want to share it more with the UN?

 

[dijetlo]

Their's progress in Iraq. Bridges, hospitals, schools, etc, though perhaps not newsworthy as individual accomplishments, are the exit strategy for Iraq. (On that sidebar, if weekly aggregates with some indication of what the administrations target goals are would qualify as "good news" to you guys, I'd be satisfied with that). Without infrastructure, the Iraqi government will be unable to survive without our direct intervention.
The most troubling and least reported part of the reconstruction is the Iraqi military. Unless the military is loyal to the elected office and not the man, Iraq will fall back into despotism as swiftly as we withdrawal.
10/1 Iraqi Army fires on jobless Protesters
We are in the thicket, boys and girls, do you really think GWB is gonna put the interests of the Iraqi people over the interests of his campaign contributors and lead us out of this mess? Has he ever put anyones interests ahead of his campaign contributors? Has any of the Democrats? Rummy had it, we're just gonna have to hold our nose and slog through this mess.

 

[spillmind]

'If not then entire region will be seriously destabilized and this would have consequences for all of us.'

is a statement contradicted by your following statement about the british. do you know why the british left iraq? i'm pretty sure you do since you referenced it in your post. however, this was about 80 years ago, and the brits don't have much bearing on society when seen in a parallel perspective with the history of that country (region).

the UN only comes into reference when the US finds it convenient. how many times have the UN condemned our actions or the actions of our 51st adopted state israel?

only the united states is allowed to murder innocent civilians and not be taken to task for it.

the solution is an energy one. and all this talk about humanitarian crisis is and has always been sorely lacking in global consistency.

the question is, how bad does it REALLY have to get for the american people to put down the krispy kreme happy meal and give a shit?

 

[Creek]

....Alota good posting on this topic...Makes me think of what the outcome will be....I understand the withdrawl principles...If not done right..The Iraqi People...will be in worse shape than before.........Another thing is the big business wanting to get in there also.........

With no U.S. there...what would happen?..A scary thought..Good posting people...!!

Creek

 

[Creek]

I don't think the American public really follow all this..as we do here..as a whole at this board....Nobody is protesting..nor will.....It will come down to if Bush is re-elected...or not...I think that's the only thing that would make big policy changes in all this.......I think the public as a whole is numb about this....and has it's hands tied....It's like we have no choice but to hope for the best,cause we can't shut this off now...gota see it through...Hope that made sence....It's a catch 22........

 

[Amras]

is a statement contradicted by your following statement about the british.

The British simply drew boundary lines of new countries like Iraq, Kuwait and even adjusting Saudi Arabia's claims on oil rich lands and installed Faisal, a foreign prince, in power. In 1958, General Qussam staged a coup against the Hatschemite monarchy. Just on a sidenote, that general also declared that Kuwait is a part of Iraq because it had been a part of province of the Basrah during the rule of the Ottoman empire. He was, like Saddam Hussein, an arab nationalist who dreamed of one huge Arab state.

As a nation, Iraq has serious deficits, but that construction is according to a lot of people a better solution than the chaos that would break out if the country fell apart.
Let's do some brainstorming and imagine what would happen if it fell apart. The Shias would fall under the influence of Iran, the Turks would do everything they could to prevent an independent Kurdistan. It's not imaginable that the 3 major parties in Iraq could agree on new boundaries, how would you distribute for instance the rich oil fields. A few more wars would be programmed.
That's why I believe that the US has to succeed. Failure is simply not an option.

 

[spillmind]

i hate to be a downer on seemingly genuine optimism, but the US is not succeeding as we speak. the best we could do is to set up an interim government- one run by iraqis- but even then corruption will soon set in, and bloody coups to follow.

its that or keep our boys stationed in that shooting gallery until a battalion gets nailed, or something equivalent. the aggressions would be persisting even if the democracy was in place AS WE SPEAK. it's common sense.

until we stop funnelling all of our money and energy into the middle east, the aggressors will retain the power/capacity for terror! oh but then again, we have so much (collectively as a nation) vested in petrol, that we cannot get away from it.

it's our own dependance on the black gold that has bitten us back all through our history.

let's look to afghanistan to see how the american re-org panned out there:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3209639.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3192880.stm

i wish i could share your optimism, but i simply don't.