Because I'm not 'woke'

[Harry Dresden]

Nothing good came of Columbus discovering America?


Do tell.

did he discover America or some islands in the Caribbean Sea?.....

 

[yumegari]

negative compared to what?

We have no idea what would have happened had he not invaded.

We have no idea what would have happened had Rome not risen and fallen.

We have no idea what would have happened had the Mongols not risen and fallen.

A comparison need not be made. The death of millions of people is in and of itself negative. Sure, if Columbus didn't discover America, someone else would have. I never said Columbus was a bad person (or a good person, for that matter). I just don't see what's worth being celebrated, given that the consequences of his actions have been negative, at least in accordance with the argument I made above.

Isn't that obvious?

It discouraged free traders.

It is the same with state funded "science," today.

The control of knowledge and information has always been the greatest source of power by the oligarchy. If you believe that you are going to receive the whole truth in Universities controlled by endowments set up by the tax free foundations of billionaires?

Let me interest you in some lake front properties in the Mohave dessert.

How does it discourage free traders? I don't see it.

did he discover America or some islands in the Caribbean Sea?.....

Seems like an arbitrary distinction.

 

[irosie91]

A comparison need not be made. The death of millions of people is in and of itself negative. Sure, if Columbus didn't discover America, someone else would have. I never said Columbus was a bad person (or a good person, for that matter). I just don't see what's worth being celebrated, given that the consequences of his actions have been negative, at least in accordance with the argument I made above.

How does it discourage free traders? I don't see it.

Seems like an arbitrary distinction.

It's nice Italian-american holiday

 

[MisterBeale]

I just don't see what's worth being celebrated, given that the consequences of his actions have been negative

So. . . on balance, it is your position, that the majority of the world's population is miserable, and the Bill of Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a bad thing?

 

[MisterBeale]

How does it discourage free traders? I don't see it.

If folks that aren't sailor, or know sailors, and investors that wanted to get into international trade wanted to set up companies to explore new opportunities. . . what would be the point, the known world is static.

 

[yumegari]

So. . . on balance, it is your position, that the majority of the world's population is miserable, and the Bill of Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a bad thing?

If you're going to make a strawmen, please at least substantiate it, especially given that I've been so calm and respectful in the course of this discussion.

If folks that aren't sailor, or know sailors, and investors that wanted to get into international trade wanted to set up companies to explore new opportunities. . . what would be the point, the known world is static.

Ah, I completely misunderstood what you said originally. We were thinking of two different time periods, I guess.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

By our standards today? If you read the logs of Columbus' second, who recorded everything that was happening, and you really know the truth? Yeah, what they did, and had been doing? Sounded absolutely horrific, I read them myself in Howard Zinn's book. It would make a good horror movie. It honestly would.

OTH? If you keep perspective about how ALL NATIONS AND CIVILIZATIONS on the planet behaved at that time in history? What Columbus did was what had to be done for Empires to succeed.

Naturally, from a global socialist mindset, folks today can't comprehend competition between civilizations. The strongest survived. If you study anthropology, and found out how the Mongols were successful? It would turn your stomach. The Romans were NOT softies. Nor were the Aztecs.
It takes more than a major in history to understand this, it takes study in political philosophy and study in cutulural anthropology to understand this as well. I would also recommend understanding how Universities get their endowments, how they are politically organized, and their place in culture, so your mind remains independent in it's crtical thinking.

If a civilization wanted to survive, grow and thrive, it had to be blood thirsty and vicious in the past, this is just a fact.

Probably the most benevolent and kind empire to ever exist in the history of humanity is the United State of America. . . it gives folks who are indoctrinated in critical theory today the freedom to slag Columbus, because they are too ignorant to understand any of this.

There seems to be no historical perspective. NONE

Now, the reason I state that it is a good thing the New World was discovered before the Enlightenment, is because, the United States, was created almost by a divine confluence of Grace . . . and luck?

It is the outgrowth of two events. Enlightenment philosophies with the likes of Adam Smith's economic writings on natural law, the Greek and Roman traditions, and the Iroquois experiments in government. Had these two unique traditions, like chocolate and peanut butter, not met, when they did, there never would have been an experiment in self-government the likes of which we have today, known as the United State of America.

The Secret of the U.S. Constitution​

The Secret of the U.S. Constitution

The true history of the basis of the U.S. Constitution will surprise most people. And, sadly, it's not taught in schools.

mollylarkin.com

The True History of our Constitution​

". . .The truth is that the U.S. Constitution is modeled in both principle and form on the Great Law of Peace of the Native American tribe known as the Iroquois.

This is absolutely, unequivocally historical fact. While there may have been other influences, when compared side by side, the influence of the Great Law of Peace is irrefutable.

In 1987, the United States Senate acknowledged that the Great Law of Peace of the Iroquois Nations served as a model for the Constitution of the United States. (U.S. S. Con. Res. 76, 2 Dec. 1987).

And since the U.S. Constitution was a model for the charter of the United Nations, the Iroquois Great Law of Peace is also a basis of international law.

When the Founding Fathers looked for examples of effective government and human liberty upon which to model a Constitution to unite the thirteen colonies, they found it in the government of the Iroquois Nation.

In the 18th Century, the Iroquois League was the oldest, most highly evolved participatory democracy on Earth.. . ."

? Sounded absolutely horrific, I read them myself in Howard Zinn's book.

Howard Zinn: Communist liar

he Hate-America left scored big-time with its late Stalinist front man Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States.

Not surprisingly, irrefutable evidence has emerged that the man who hated America for at least 70 of his 87 years was — (Guess what! Shhhhh! No coaching from the audience, please!)....Hate-America Howie was — a Communist. We always knew that was the worldview of his heart. But now it turns out that he made it official. Hate-America Howie was a formal member of the Communist Party-USA.

Back in my day while serving if ever met Howie alone, he would of been buried in an unmarked grave....

 

[the other mike]

Being Native American* in spirit, I have mixed feelings about Columbus Day, but considering the fact that we celebrate a bunny rabbit that brings candy, a drunk old man in a flying sled pulled by deer who brings toys, then Columbus Day seems normal enough.

*We were 'woke' when it was cool to be. like tattoos.

 

[Meathead]

he didnt discovery north america and didnt even make it to the mainland,,,

in fact it was all by mistake,,

I'm not getting into silly games.

 

[marvin martian]

I've just started my major in history not too long ago

Ah, this explains a lot.

 

[yumegari]

Ah, this explains a lot.

Oh? Why? Care to tell me what I got wrong? I'd love to learn.

 

[progressive hunter]

I'm not getting into silly games.

wouldnt want you to spread fake news,,

america was discovered long before Columbus got here

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Oh? Why? Care to tell me what I got wrong? I'd love to learn.

Well, for one thing, you characterize the results of his bringing European culture to the Americas as being entirely negative

Your actual position here stands in stark contrast to the position you CLAIM to hold in regards to seeing the good as well as bad.

 

[yumegari]

Well, for one thing, you characterize the results of his bringing European culture to the Americas as being entirely negative

Your actual position here stands in stark contrast to the position you CLAIM to hold in regards to seeing the good as well as bad.

Well, I'm very open to seeing how it might be positive. I don't believe anyone has actually told me a positive consequence of Columbus's discovery of the New World.

Also, how is my actual position in stark contrast to my claimed position? I'd love to know, so I can reconcile the two.

 

[marvin martian]

Oh? Why? Care to tell me what I got wrong? I'd love to learn.

There was nothing to get "wrong". All you did was state your opinions, which are about what I would expect coming from a second year college student with no experience in the real world, and a propensity to be easily influenced by your left-wing professors.

 

[MisterBeale]

Howard Zinn: Communist liar Back in my day while serving if ever met Howie alone, he would of been buried in an unmarked grave....

For what? Telling the truth?

By 1494, Columbus had shared his viceroyship with one of his military officers named Margarit, ordering him to prioritize Christianizing the natives, but that part of their noses and ears should be cut off for stealing. Margarit's men exploited the natives by beating, raping and enslaving them, with none on Hispaniola being baptized for another two years. Columbus's brother Diego warned Margarit to follow the admiral's orders, which provoked him to take three caravels back to Spain. Fray Buil, who was supposed to perform baptisms, accompanied Margarit. After arriving in Spain in late 1494, Buil complained to the Spanish court of the Columbus brothers and that there was no gold. Groups of Margarit's soldiers who remained in the west continued brutalizing the natives. Instead of forbidding this, Columbus participated in enslaving the indigenous people.[99] In February 1495, he took over 1,500 Arawaks, some of whom had rebelled against the oppression of the colonists,[59][100] and many of whom were subsequently released or taken by the Caribs.[101] That month, Columbus shipped approximately 500 of these Americans to Spain to be sold as slaves; about 40% died en route,[59][100] and half of the rest were sick upon arrival. In June of that year, the Spanish crown sent ships and supplies to the colony on Hispaniola, which Florentine merchant Gianotto Berardi had helped procure.[102][v] In October, Berardi received almost 40,000 maravedís worth of slaves, who were alleged to be either cannibals or prisoners.[102][w]

The natives of Hispaniola were systematically subjugated via the encomienda system Columbus implemented.[104] Adapted from Spain, it resembled the feudal system in Medieval Europe, as it was based on a lord offering "protection" to a class of people who owed labor.[105] In addition, Spanish colonists under Columbus's rule began to buy and sell natives as slaves, including children.[106] Columbus's forced labor system was described by his son Ferdinand: "In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of fourteen years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust;[x] all others were each to pay 25 pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment; any Indian found without such a token was to be punished."[93] The monarchs, who suggested the tokens, called for a light punishment,[109] but any Indian found without a copper token had their hands cut off, which was a likely death sentence.[73] Since there was no abundance of gold on the island, the natives had no chance of meeting Columbus's quota and thousands are reported to have committed suicide.[110] By 1497, the tribute system had all but collapsed.[111]

Columbus became ill in 1495, and during this time, his troops acted out of order, enacting cruelties on the natives, including torturing them to learn where the supposed gold was.[112] When he recovered, he led men and dogs to hunt down natives who fled their forced duties, killing them or cutting off their hands as a warning to others.[113] Brutalities and murders were carried out even against natives who were sick and unarmed.[113]

Voyages of Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All of his research came from documentation.

Facts don't give a fuck about your feelings.

 

[yumegari]

There was nothing to get "wrong". All you did was state your opinions, which are about what I would expect coming from a second year college student with no experience in the real world, and a propensity to be easily influenced by your left-wing professors.

I didn't just state my opinions, I substantiated my opinions with my understanding of the facts. Right now, I am actively seeking out a counterargument, so I can adjust my opinion accordingly, or further my understanding through discussion. What more can you ask for?

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

For what? Telling the truth?

By 1494, Columbus had shared his viceroyship with one of his military officers named Margarit, ordering him to prioritize Christianizing the natives, but that part of their noses and ears should be cut off for stealing. Margarit's men exploited the natives by beating, raping and enslaving them, with none on Hispaniola being baptized for another two years. Columbus's brother Diego warned Margarit to follow the admiral's orders, which provoked him to take three caravels back to Spain. Fray Buil, who was supposed to perform baptisms, accompanied Margarit. After arriving in Spain in late 1494, Buil complained to the Spanish court of the Columbus brothers and that there was no gold. Groups of Margarit's soldiers who remained in the west continued brutalizing the natives. Instead of forbidding this, Columbus participated in enslaving the indigenous people.[99] In February 1495, he took over 1,500 Arawaks, some of whom had rebelled against the oppression of the colonists,[59][100] and many of whom were subsequently released or taken by the Caribs.[101] That month, Columbus shipped approximately 500 of these Americans to Spain to be sold as slaves; about 40% died en route,[59][100] and half of the rest were sick upon arrival. In June of that year, the Spanish crown sent ships and supplies to the colony on Hispaniola, which Florentine merchant Gianotto Berardi had helped procure.[102][v] In October, Berardi received almost 40,000 maravedís worth of slaves, who were alleged to be either cannibals or prisoners.[102][w]

The natives of Hispaniola were systematically subjugated via the encomienda system Columbus implemented.[104] Adapted from Spain, it resembled the feudal system in Medieval Europe, as it was based on a lord offering "protection" to a class of people who owed labor.[105] In addition, Spanish colonists under Columbus's rule began to buy and sell natives as slaves, including children.[106] Columbus's forced labor system was described by his son Ferdinand: "In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of fourteen years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust;[x] all others were each to pay 25 pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment; any Indian found without such a token was to be punished."[93] The monarchs, who suggested the tokens, called for a light punishment,[109] but any Indian found without a copper token had their hands cut off, which was a likely death sentence.[73] Since there was no abundance of gold on the island, the natives had no chance of meeting Columbus's quota and thousands are reported to have committed suicide.[110] By 1497, the tribute system had all but collapsed.[111]

Columbus became ill in 1495, and during this time, his troops acted out of order, enacting cruelties on the natives, including torturing them to learn where the supposed gold was.[112] When he recovered, he led men and dogs to hunt down natives who fled their forced duties, killing them or cutting off their hands as a warning to others.[113] Brutalities and murders were carried out even against natives who were sick and unarmed.[113]

Voyages of Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All of his research came from documentation.

Facts don't give a fuck about your feelings.

Yeah, sure, i always believe what a communist tells me (NOT)...

 

[MisterBeale]

Howard Zinn: Communist liar Back in my day while serving if ever met Howie alone, he would of been buried in an unmarked grave....

Or is it the problem you have. . . the freedom to be and declare whatever political affiliation a person wants to be?

You don't think Americans should have freedom of association or speech? Is that it?

 

[MisterBeale]

Yeah, sure, i always believe what a communist tells me (NOT)...

So you think facts are dependent upon the political affiliation of who tells them to you?

If a communist tells you 2+2=4? Then it has to be a lie huh?