Zone1 Beauty Culture and Works-Based Religions: Mormons and Amish

[HikerGuy83]

So you realize subjecting God to people's own will?

God is subject to his own eternal laws.

Otherwise he is not God.

An arbitrary God would be an unjust God.

As has been stated, people can not accept the gift offered them and they will not be "saved". His supreme offering is agency. He can't force us, nor would he.

From Mark 6:

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

So, no, God is no subject to our wills. We are subject to eternal law and he won't/can't interfere with that.

That's not a sovereign God, nor one who is omnipotent.

While words have an accepted meaning.

Omnipotent does not mean he can violate his own laws.

He was not happy about the flood, but it was necessary. It broke his heart. Justice demanded it.

So, if you are saying he can "do what he wants", I'll say that is not the case.

I am also saying he would never want to violate those eternal laws. He lives by them and understands their necessity. He governs the universe through them.

 

[HikerGuy83]

In the case you posit, God can only act if we will it.

You have it backwards. God acts according to his perfect and eternal nature. He is perfectly consistent.

And he loves all of us. Even sinners.

But, as demonstrated in Matthew 25, he can't rob justice.

If we reject him, he can't save us. It's not that he won't. I am sure he would if he could. He loves all his children.

 

[HikerGuy83]

In her own way she did.

O.K.

I'll say it out directly.

She's wrong.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Christians believe Jesus can save to the "uttermost"...see the thief on the Cross.

As someone else demonstrated.....the thief was with him....just not in "heaven".

I would ask how saving the thief on the cross would be seen as consistent with Matthew 25.

 

[SweetSue92]

You have it backwards. God acts according to his perfect and eternal nature. He is perfectly consistent.

And he loves all of us. Even sinners.

But, as demonstrated in Matthew 25, he can't rob justice.

If we reject him, he can't save us. It's not that he won't. I am sure he would if he could. He loves all his children.

So all these words just to say that God is a slave to our human, fallen will.

Got it.

 

[HikerGuy83]

So all these words just to say that God is a slave to our human, fallen will.

Got it.

Total misrepresentation.

Do you believe that God can violate his own laws?

 

[HikerGuy83]

A works-based Christian faith might not expressly state that the way to God is to "be good", but they operate that way. "Utah curls" signals that you are an attractive wife and mother, with her husband, home and children in such good care that she can afford to maintain expensive hair extensions. Meanwhile, the modest Amish woman of the same age is careful to put her clothes on correctly, including tucking her long hair into a cap. Both are outward signs that the woman is "good".

Talk about tortured.

Taking this approach undermines the very heart of Christianity, which asserts that there is NOTHING you can do to earn your way to God--He did it, He earned the way, because He's the only one who could.

And yet, in his own words, he won't save everyone.

Why not?

 

[HikerGuy83]

You may not think "Utah Curls", pictured below on the case of "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives", and Amish dress have much in common. But they do, strangely. Both religions are an offshoot of works-based faiths.

A works-based Christian faith might not expressly state that the way to God is to "be good", but they operate that way. "Utah curls" signals that you are an attractive wife and mother, with her husband, home and children in such good care that she can afford to maintain expensive hair extensions. Meanwhile, the modest Amish woman of the same age is careful to put her clothes on correctly, including tucking her long hair into a cap. Both are outward signs that the woman is "good".

Taking this approach undermines the very heart of Christianity, which asserts that there is NOTHING you can do to earn your way to God--He did it, He earned the way, because He's the only one who could.

The world loves all kinds of "religious signs" though, which has been the mark of the "religious" since the beginning.....

View attachment 1232185

Utah Hair is Ultra-Long, Smoothly Curled and Lighting up FYPs. Let's Take a Closer Look

Exemplified by The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, these curls are a fascinating portal into a very specific way of life

thekit.ca

View attachment 1232186

The connection attempted in the OP is almost bizzare.

What in the world do looks have to do with works?

 

[SweetSue92]

Total misrepresentation.

Do you believe that God can violate his own laws?

Yes, He can violate His own laws. You've read the miracles in the Bible, right? What He cannot do is violate his innate characteristics. One of which is omnipotence. But your God doesn't have that, because He is subject to man's will.

 

[SweetSue92]

God is subject to his own eternal laws.

Otherwise he is not God.

An arbitrary God would be an unjust God.

As has been stated, people can not accept the gift offered them and they will not be "saved". His supreme offering is agency. He can't force us, nor would he.

From Mark 6:

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

So, no, God is no subject to our wills. We are subject to eternal law and he won't/can't interfere with that.


While words have an accepted meaning.

Omnipotent does not mean he can violate his own laws.

He was not happy about the flood, but it was necessary. It broke his heart. Justice demanded it.

So, if you are saying he can "do what he wants", I'll say that is not the case.

I am also saying he would never want to violate those eternal laws. He lives by them and understands their necessity. He governs the universe through them.

So a god who is subject to his creation?

What?

No.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, He can violate His own laws.

Fascinating. And unreliable God.

You've read the miracles in the Bible, right?

Miracles are not a violation of his laws.

They are simply things we don't understand.

What He cannot do is violate his innate characteristics.

Because he can't or because he won't.

You just subjected him to constraints.

One of which is omnipotence.

Which is just a word.

But your God doesn't have that, because He is subject to man's will.

You seem bent on avoiding the mirror of your own argument.

What does Matthew 25 say God will do to those who refuse him?

He will cast them into outer darkness.

Does he do that because he wants to or because he has to?

Simple question.

 

[HikerGuy83]

So a god who is subject to his creation?

What?

No.

The scriptures just demonstrated you are wrong.

You just saying so means nothing.

And what gives you authority to cast stones at the Amish?

 

[SweetSue92]

Fascinating. And unreliable God.


Miracles are not a violation of his laws.

They are simply things we don't understand.


Because he can't or because he won't.

You just subjected him to constraints.


Which is just a word.


You seem bent on avoiding the mirror of your own argument.

What does Matthew 25 say God will do to those who refuse him?

He will cast them into outer darkness.

Does he do that because he wants to or because he has to?

Simple question.

Lots of words for you positing a God who is beholden to the very creatures He created.

You realize many, many, many laws of the OT are fulfilled and thus no longer applicable right? Is that God "violating His own law"?

Lastly, God says "He is who He is". His characteristics are immutable. So no, that's the only thing He cannot 'violate'

 

[SweetSue92]

The scriptures just demonstrated you are wrong.

You just saying so means nothing.

And what gives you authority to cast stones at the Amish?

We use that term as an idiom now, but it wasn't. It was LITERALLY people stoning a woman to death for adultery....a horrid way to die. I don't have any stones in hand. And what I said about the Amish is true. Yes, they're a peaceable, industrious people with some strange ideas about Christianity. Such as: no zippers, no electricity. Such as: we will shun you if you're family but not Amish.

PS Joseph Smith also had some very strange ideas about Christianity that began with him looking at rocks in a hat. I mean....

 

[HikerGuy83]

Lots of words for you positing a God who is beholden to the very creatures He created.

Keep twisting. It's no less garbage this time than the first time you said it.

I showed you where Christ was limited by people's lack of faith. You....nothing.

You still won't tell me if the casting of people into outer darkness in Matthew 25 is a matter of his wanting to being required to do so. Please stand up tall and answer the question.

You realize many, many, many laws of the OT are fulfilled and thus no longer applicable right? Is that God "violating His own law"?

Is this really a question?

What does the Sermon on the Mount say...

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

He then goes on to give "higher laws":

27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So, he fulfilled the law of carnal commandments. They quit sacrificing lambs because the true Lamb of God was sacrificed.

His focus changed from the outward to the inward.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Tell me.....is 44 commanding "works"?

Finally, he tells us......

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Sounds like he expects us to do something.

 

[HikerGuy83]

We use that term as an idiom now, but it wasn't. It was LITERALLY people stoning a woman to death for adultery....a horrid way to die. I don't have any stones in hand.

He instructed a group that was "without sin" to cast the first stone. That is what you are doing.

I don't have any stones in hand.

The OP is a stone.

What puts you in a position to judge? From whence comes your authority. And if you say "the bible" we are probably done because that is poorest argument there is.

And what I said about the Amish is true.

Were you once Amish? If not, then I doubt you have any base of reference. You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND LDS theology.

Yes, they're a peaceable, industrious people with some strange ideas about Christianity. Such as: no zippers, no electricity. Such as: we will shun you if you're family but not Amish.

I am not Amish. I don't pretend to know why they do what they do. But I would bet that if I sat with them and asked they'd help me understand why, so some degree, they do what they do. And even if I didn't agree with it, I would at least better understand having heard it from them. And I doubt I would feel badly towards them or be critical of them for that. The Amish don't sacrifice children on alters. They don't send armies to slaughter muslims. They don't hang women or burn women the think are witches. They also don't war with each other over religion and execute people they feel are heretics.

I will give them credit for being great people in so many ways. And I am sure that God will help (or at least give them the opportunity to) correct any errors in their lives because he is a just God above all else.

PS Joseph Smith also had some very strange ideas about Christianity that began with him looking at rocks in a hat. I mean....

What do you mean?

Exodus 30:

30 ¶ And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

Urim and Thummim - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And did those stones tell him to kill those who didn't accept his teachings?

BTW: Your scriptures proved your statement wrong.....you simply chose not to acknowledge that. Funny how that works.

 

[HikerGuy83]

This from an LDS apostle:

The Apostle Paul taught that the Lord’s teachings and teachers were given that we may all attain “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13). This process requires far more than acquiring knowledge. It is not even enough for us to be convinced of the gospel; we must act and think so that we are converted by it. In contrast to the institutions of the world, which teach us to know something, the gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to become something.

Many Bible and modern scriptures speak of a final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved.

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11–12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God. Referring to the “state” of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, “we shall not be found spotless; … and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God” (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

*********************

This, then opens up a huge discussion around what LDS theology teaches about the afterlife, judgement, and final destiny. Which is necessary to understand if you are going to look at how we approach the concept of "effort" in our lives.

 

[HikerGuy83]

A works-based Christian faith might not expressly state that the way to God is to "be good", but they operate that way.

What the LDS church expresses is quite clear.

And someone's claim that they "operate that way" using some stupid reality show as a basis for their comments......

is just disingenous.

But, leave it to those who sit atop false thrones in judgement of other, using their interpretation of "Christianity" as the basis to make complete hypocrites out of themselves.

Bend it and twist it any way you like. Mormons have as much claim to truth as anyone.

Follow that with a complete disregard for questions about such claims and now you have a pseudoChristian who lacks a very good case for their point.

Just saying so doesn't make it that way.

And NO God's word does not support this claim.

 

[SweetSue92]

Keep twisting. It's no less garbage this time than the first time you said it.

I showed you where Christ was limited by people's lack of faith. You....nothing.

You still won't tell me if the casting of people into outer darkness in Matthew 25 is a matter of his wanting to being required to do so. Please stand up tall and answer the question.

Is this really a question?

What does the Sermon on the Mount say...

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

He then goes on to give "higher laws":

27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So, he fulfilled the law of carnal commandments. They quit sacrificing lambs because the true Lamb of God was sacrificed.

His focus changed from the outward to the inward.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Tell me.....is 44 commanding "works"?

Finally, he tells us......

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Sounds like he expects us to do something.

Just here:

Keep twisting. It's no less garbage this time than the first time you said it.

I showed you where Christ was limited by people's lack of faith. You....nothing.

You still won't tell me if the casting of people into outer darkness in Matthew 25 is a matter of his wanting to being required to do so. Please stand up tall and answer the question.

You have a limited Christ; I do not. He wasn't "limited" by their lack of belief; they didn't believe, and were therefore mocking Him--in word, deed, or spirit.

And again: the God you posit does not WANT to do certain things, but MUST due to the decisions of man. Your God is beholden to the whims and fancies of fallen man.

That's not my God. See: Romans 9:22--some will not be saved, for reasons the Sovereign God understands. A hard teaching, but one in which God is still God.

 

[SweetSue92]

What the LDS church expresses is quite clear.

And someone's claim that they "operate that way" using some stupid reality show as a basis for their comments......

is just disingenous.

But, leave it to those who sit atop false thrones in judgement of other, using their interpretation of "Christianity" as the basis to make complete hypocrites out of themselves.

Bend it and twist it any way you like. Mormons have as much claim to truth as anyone.

Follow that with a complete disregard for questions about such claims and now you have a pseudoChristian who lacks a very good case for their point.

Just saying so doesn't make it that way.

And NO God's word does not support this claim.

Again.

You will only be saved by Jesus "after everything you can do". (Nephi 25:23)