Atheists want multiple universes and extra-terrestrial civilizations to exist because they think it will hurt Christianity

[Hollie]

Adam and Eve not reaching out and eating from the fruit of the Tree of (perfect) Knowledge before the fruit of the Tree of LIfe doomed us to Nexus Six.

Yup. We ended up having to die and more hardships.

It wasn't the act so much, but what they ended up thinking before it. They knew the act was forbidden, but they were convinced that they would be like God and know what was good and bad for them. IOW, many times we think we know better when it comes to doing good and doing evil.

'Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’”

The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’”

“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.' Genesis 3:1-6

Quite a fable. Interesting that the writers of the fable made your gods a liar.

The talking serpent told the truth. Your gods lied. How’s that for a kick in the pants?

Your comment shows that you are acting like God and saying that God's word is a lie (fable) and was wrong. Your atheism won't let you believe that we had it made and didn't have to die. Do you see how easy it is to act like God? Now, we have ten commandments .

First, we see that Adam and Eve had free will and that the were tempted and responded just like you.

Second, how is it that Satan told the truth? All he did was tempt them and all they had to do was ignore Satan. God gave them and us everything that we would ever want and not die. We would've been really like God and be living in heaven on Earth right now. I want a steak and lobster or beer and pizza and voila there it is. And you could trust other people, too, even if you didn't know them.

Biology backs the story up as serpents lost their tail and legs and have to crawl on their bellies. What other animals do that? Maybe some insects.

God also said don't eat these types of animals and insects. Generally speaking you don't want to eat the wild ones as they could be poisonous or carry parasites.

It seems you haven't studied your Bible'ology. Are you perhaps worshipping your own revised, edited King James (Bond) version?

For the moment, lets use that other KJV, shall we?


Genesis 3
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.

Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Lastly, we're left with a rather interesting contradiction. Per the fable, the talking snake told the truth: A&E didn't die. Your gods said they would.

Why did your gods lie?

 

[danielpalos]

God created marijuana with His own two hands on the Third Day and proclaimed it was Good and not Bad. Why should we take Original Sinners who claim the opposite, morally seriously?

 

[james bond]

yeah, somehow, I can't take a book with talking animals and giants in it very seriously.

That's your achilles heel. Anyway, what's done is done, i.e. your will was done (not God's will).

You know, I do understand why people gloss over the Bible verses. I did the same before being born again. For example, the biggest may be 6,000 year old Earth versus billions of years old Earth. That is a considerable difference. But our history really shows a young Earth, i.e. not much has happened. Thus, it comes down to whether you believe the assumptions of the evolutionary timeline or the Bible.

Their existence has been documented through photographs and written records, unlike the book of fairy tales, which were written down centuries after the fact based on oral traditions.

All I know about Dahmer is what I read in papers and various articles and now on Reddit. He could be who Hannibal the Cannibal character was based on. What do you have? Do you think he really repented? Or it's just part of your taunting?

I think Anne Frank was saved because she was still young and wasn't exposed to the Bible. I never read much beyond her being a hero as a kid, but her diary seems to still hold interest. I mean it's not WW II time anymore, but still people are interested. Could it be because of what you brought up?

Naw, man, my atheism was set in stone when my Mom died despite the whole parish praying for her to get better.

That's interesting. Those memories must be very vivid. How young were you? We all know that death is inevitable, but we don't know when it will be or how. We expect it to happen, but aren't really ready for it. Jesus told us to be ready. In one way, we welcome it as part of our natural life.

Okay, let's look at that.

Kind of unlikely that Anne Frank suddenly started loving Jesus when CHRISTIANS forced her to hide in an attic for years before sending her off to die in a concentration camp.... Those people wore belt buckles that read "Gott Mit Uns" (God's with us) when they invaded... I can't imagine she was well disposed towards Jesus when she died.

Now, for Chef Jeff, I don't know what was in his heart. (We do know what was in his stomach, though!) He might have sincerely repented. Or he might have been scamming the prison ministry to get extra privileges and avoid work details. But assuming that his conversion and confession was sincere, by Christian theology, he gets to go to Heaven. He killed 17 people and ATE Them.

The problem with "Christian Justice" is that it's based on fear and obedience, not justice. Ann Frank and my Japanese friend were basically good people. They shouldn't be penalized because they were born into the wrong religion. Jeff Dahmner was mentally ill, to be sure, but he still knew enough about right and wrong to try to cover up his crimes. But he says "Jesus" with enough sincerity and he gets into heaven? That's kind of messed up.

Mwahaha on Dahmer's stomach.

I don't have definite evidence based on what I've read on Anne Frank, but she was one of the better stories about WW II and Nazis. Why would Jews be the ones Hitler tried to genocide? Us Bible readers would know, but it happened very fast during WW II and may not have been known what would happen. I do know that Charles Darwin supported Eugenics and racism (it's in the Descent of Man book), but wasn't against Jews. Hitler was greatly influenced by what he read about Eugenics and social Darwism. Yet, Jews were the ones deported to the Nazi camps. Were the other countries just cooperating with Hitler or afraid of his power? I suppose there were others that Hitler hated, but we remember the Holocaust.

I'm not sure what Christian justice means, but I think you're referring to what Christians did in history and still do today. No doubt, they were vicious in believing they were right in getting justice based on Christianity, but that isn't what Jesus taught. It's still part of Christians being like God and thinking they are right when it comes to what's good and what's evil. That's what Satan told Adam and Eve. They would know what's good and what's bad like God by eating the fruit. It's very easy to fall prey to. We still continue to eat the fruit to this day and probably will continue to do it.

 

[james bond]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

 

[james bond]

Maybe some do not know the story of Lucifer and what happened before Adam and Eve. It's not straight forward explained like Genesis.

 

[Batcat]

God promised the Israelites all sorts of goodies if they obeyed his laws. In this universe they didn’t and suffered the consequences but if there are multiple universes there should be one where the Israelites did what God required and were rewarded.

What are the blessings God promised Israel for obedience? | GotQuestions.org

What are the blessings God promised Israel for obedience? Were the blessings God promised a reward for obedience fulfilled?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Hollie]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

You're ignoring a very basic premise of the Genesis fable which is; the character called ''Lucifer'' as either, a) created by your gods, b) self created, or, c) was created by some other gods who were super gods to your gods.

Why don't you give us the Bible verses that describe who invented a character apparently more powerful than your gods?


Why don't you give us the Bible verses that explains what evil is? I would define the lie told by your gods as evil but as we know, evil would be a contradiction to the notion of the Biblical gods. Although, that puts us into a feedback loop when we see the evil, capricious and punitive acts committed by the Biblical gods toward their ''children''. What was the cause for disobedience as it applied to A&E? If you knew anything about your Bible'ology, you would know that the test put to A&E was not a test at all. If you knew your Bible’ology you would know that in the Genesis fable Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions. Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Why don't you give us a list of some excuses for condemning A&E and all of humanity for the rather petty crime of fruit theft?

 

[Hollie]

Maybe some do not know the story of Lucifer and what happened before Adam and Eve. It's not straight forward explained like Genesis.

Lots of pretty pictures but is YouTube really the best you can do?

 

[james bond]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

You're ignoring a very basic premise of the Genesis fable which is; the character called ''Lucifer'' as either, a) created by your gods, b) self created, or, c) was created by some other gods who were super gods to your gods.

Why don't you give us the Bible verses that describe who invented a character apparently more powerful than your gods?


Why don't you give us the Bible verses that explains what evil is? I would define the lie told by your gods as evil but as we know, evil would be a contradiction to the notion of the Biblical gods. Although, that puts us into a feedback loop when we see the evil, capricious and punitive acts committed by the Biblical gods toward their ''children''. What was the cause for disobedience as it applied to A&E? If you knew anything about your Bible'ology, you would know that the test put to A&E was not a test at all. If you knew your Bible’ology you would know that in the Genesis fable Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions. Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Why don't you give us a list of some excuses for condemning A&E and all of humanity for the rather petty crime of fruit theft?

I received Lucifer's background in parochial school. This was before Genesis. His story isn't straightforward in the Bible, so that is why I posted the youtube above. Basically, Lucifer was God's best and most talented angel. It shows that we will be spirit like in the afterlife, but with perfect spiritual bodies. We won't be like the angels with wings, but similar in spirit.

Anyway, Lucifer became so powerful and was the most exalted one that he wanted to be like God and receive equal status. That is the first sin and why he and his follower angels were cast down upon Earth. It also created hell as a place for Lucifer (now Satan) and his follower angels in the afterlife. The key is throughout history we have humans who acquired great power and wealth wanting to be like God in committing their evil. If you look a four of the ten commandments, it's about being like God or going against God as evil. The other five are what humans do to each other kind of evil which we readily understand.

Lots of pretty pictures but is YouTube really the best you can do?

There are longer documentaries and we have human history of people who acquired great wealth and power and wanted to be like God. Behind it, we find this was their motivation. It's the first and greatest evil according to God.

That's why Adam and Eve only had one commandment. However, I don't think lasted very long in old heaven.

 

[Hollie]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

You're ignoring a very basic premise of the Genesis fable which is; the character called ''Lucifer'' as either, a) created by your gods, b) self created, or, c) was created by some other gods who were super gods to your gods.

Why don't you give us the Bible verses that describe who invented a character apparently more powerful than your gods?


Why don't you give us the Bible verses that explains what evil is? I would define the lie told by your gods as evil but as we know, evil would be a contradiction to the notion of the Biblical gods. Although, that puts us into a feedback loop when we see the evil, capricious and punitive acts committed by the Biblical gods toward their ''children''. What was the cause for disobedience as it applied to A&E? If you knew anything about your Bible'ology, you would know that the test put to A&E was not a test at all. If you knew your Bible’ology you would know that in the Genesis fable Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions. Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Why don't you give us a list of some excuses for condemning A&E and all of humanity for the rather petty crime of fruit theft?

I received Lucifer's background in parochial school. This was before Genesis. His story isn't straightforward in the Bible, so that is why I posted the youtube above. Basically, Lucifer was God's best and most talented angel. It shows that we will be spirit like in the afterlife, but with perfect spiritual bodies. We won't be like the angels with wings, but similar in spirit.

Anyway, Lucifer became so powerful and was the most exalted one that he wanted to be like God and receive equal status. That is the first sin and why he and his follower angels were cast down upon Earth. It also created hell as a place for Lucifer (now Satan) and his follower angels in the afterlife. The key is throughout history we have humans who acquired great power and wealth wanting to be like God in committing their evil. If you look a four of the ten commandments, it's about being like God or going against God as evil. The other five are what humans do to each other kind of evil which we readily understand.

Lots of pretty pictures but is YouTube really the best you can do?

There are longer documentaries and we have human history of people who acquired great wealth and power and wanted to be like God. Behind it, we find this was their motivation. It's the first and greatest evil according to God.

That's why Adam and Eve only had one commandment. However, I don't think lasted very long in old heaven.

So, apparently you believe that the lucifer character was an ''angel''. Super! The list of supernatural characters gets more complicated.

So, how is it that Lucifer was apparently more powerful than your gods?

Lastly, I'm not clear on what you mean by ''old heaven''. Is there a new one?

 

[james bond]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

You're ignoring a very basic premise of the Genesis fable which is; the character called ''Lucifer'' as either, a) created by your gods, b) self created, or, c) was created by some other gods who were super gods to your gods.

Why don't you give us the Bible verses that describe who invented a character apparently more powerful than your gods?


Why don't you give us the Bible verses that explains what evil is? I would define the lie told by your gods as evil but as we know, evil would be a contradiction to the notion of the Biblical gods. Although, that puts us into a feedback loop when we see the evil, capricious and punitive acts committed by the Biblical gods toward their ''children''. What was the cause for disobedience as it applied to A&E? If you knew anything about your Bible'ology, you would know that the test put to A&E was not a test at all. If you knew your Bible’ology you would know that in the Genesis fable Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions. Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Why don't you give us a list of some excuses for condemning A&E and all of humanity for the rather petty crime of fruit theft?

I received Lucifer's background in parochial school. This was before Genesis. His story isn't straightforward in the Bible, so that is why I posted the youtube above. Basically, Lucifer was God's best and most talented angel. It shows that we will be spirit like in the afterlife, but with perfect spiritual bodies. We won't be like the angels with wings, but similar in spirit.

Anyway, Lucifer became so powerful and was the most exalted one that he wanted to be like God and receive equal status. That is the first sin and why he and his follower angels were cast down upon Earth. It also created hell as a place for Lucifer (now Satan) and his follower angels in the afterlife. The key is throughout history we have humans who acquired great power and wealth wanting to be like God in committing their evil. If you look a four of the ten commandments, it's about being like God or going against God as evil. The other five are what humans do to each other kind of evil which we readily understand.

Lots of pretty pictures but is YouTube really the best you can do?

There are longer documentaries and we have human history of people who acquired great wealth and power and wanted to be like God. Behind it, we find this was their motivation. It's the first and greatest evil according to God.

That's why Adam and Eve only had one commandment. However, I don't think lasted very long in old heaven.

So, apparently you believe that the lucifer character was an ''angel''. Super! The list of supernatural characters gets more complicated.

So, how is it that Lucifer was apparently more powerful than your gods?

Lastly, I'm not clear on what you mean by ''old heaven''. Is there a new one?

Those are the Bible facts. It's not up to me to believe. You think "angel" are like those love angels, cute baby angels, or some good looking guy with wings. The real angels in heaven weren't like that at all. The takeaway is what was considered Lucifer's sin.

Lucifer didn't think he was more powerful. He thought he became as powerful like God and wanted to be given God status. Look at Revelation and the end of the world. We see that one man becomes the ruler of the world. Isn't that being "like God?" That is when Jesus will come again bringing with him the war to end the world.

This Earth was supposed to be heaven. Since it is dead now, God will take this universe and Earth and fold it up like a scroll and take it away after Jesus comes to clean it up of all sin. It will be replaced by the new Earth or heaven.

ETA: It may be hard to believe for the atheists here, but you want multiverses and intelligent aliens. How weird and unlikely is that .

 

[Hollie]

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.

Correct. Evil was created when Lucifer (with free will), the best angel and most powerful, wanted to be like God in heaven.

Are you starting to get it now? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

Yes, it is certain you didn't get it and what the evil was. There was a cause for the disobedience.

You're ignoring a very basic premise of the Genesis fable which is; the character called ''Lucifer'' as either, a) created by your gods, b) self created, or, c) was created by some other gods who were super gods to your gods.

Why don't you give us the Bible verses that describe who invented a character apparently more powerful than your gods?


Why don't you give us the Bible verses that explains what evil is? I would define the lie told by your gods as evil but as we know, evil would be a contradiction to the notion of the Biblical gods. Although, that puts us into a feedback loop when we see the evil, capricious and punitive acts committed by the Biblical gods toward their ''children''. What was the cause for disobedience as it applied to A&E? If you knew anything about your Bible'ology, you would know that the test put to A&E was not a test at all. If you knew your Bible’ology you would know that in the Genesis fable Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions. Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Why don't you give us a list of some excuses for condemning A&E and all of humanity for the rather petty crime of fruit theft?

I received Lucifer's background in parochial school. This was before Genesis. His story isn't straightforward in the Bible, so that is why I posted the youtube above. Basically, Lucifer was God's best and most talented angel. It shows that we will be spirit like in the afterlife, but with perfect spiritual bodies. We won't be like the angels with wings, but similar in spirit.

Anyway, Lucifer became so powerful and was the most exalted one that he wanted to be like God and receive equal status. That is the first sin and why he and his follower angels were cast down upon Earth. It also created hell as a place for Lucifer (now Satan) and his follower angels in the afterlife. The key is throughout history we have humans who acquired great power and wealth wanting to be like God in committing their evil. If you look a four of the ten commandments, it's about being like God or going against God as evil. The other five are what humans do to each other kind of evil which we readily understand.

Lots of pretty pictures but is YouTube really the best you can do?

There are longer documentaries and we have human history of people who acquired great wealth and power and wanted to be like God. Behind it, we find this was their motivation. It's the first and greatest evil according to God.

That's why Adam and Eve only had one commandment. However, I don't think lasted very long in old heaven.

So, apparently you believe that the lucifer character was an ''angel''. Super! The list of supernatural characters gets more complicated.

So, how is it that Lucifer was apparently more powerful than your gods?

Lastly, I'm not clear on what you mean by ''old heaven''. Is there a new one?

Those are the Bible facts. It's not up to me to believe. You think "angel" are like those love angels, cute baby angels, or some good looking guy with wings. The real angels in heaven weren't like that at all. The takeaway is what was considered Lucifer's sin.

Lucifer didn't think he was more powerful. He thought he became as powerful like God and wanted to be given God status. Look at Revelation and the end of the world. We see that one man becomes the ruler of the world. Isn't that being "like God?" That is when Jesus will come again bringing with him the war to end the world.

This Earth was supposed to be heaven. Since it is dead now, God will take this universe and Earth and fold it up like a scroll and take it away after Jesus comes to clean it up of all sin. It will be replaced by the new Earth or heaven.

ETA: It may be hard to believe for the atheists here, but you want multiverses and intelligent aliens. How weird and unlikely is that .

You're playing fast and loose with what you call "facts" yet you offer no facts. I would suggest that you be honest with yourself and others and because you have no facts to support your various gods, heavens, hells, spirit realms and devils that you acknowledge those obvious facts. What you “personally believe” here is all fine and good, as long as you do not portray it to be anything more than mere “personal belief.” But it is still demonstrably a surrender to ignorance. It is an explicit assertion that the subject is not amenable to reason or evidence; that it is entirely outside the capacity of humans to understand so we should not even try. Of course that would require us to draw all our conclusions not as humans but as sheep, and blindly follow the traditions and tales of those who came before us. That in turn would automatically subject the vast majority of humanity to forever live in error and superstition. You may be happy with such a circumstance. Others of us are not.

One more time, with feeling: There is no reason to believe that any of your gods or their angels have ever existed in any heaven. While your vision of heaven may include fat, naked babies playing harps while floating on clouds, there is no good reason to believe any of this.

To the subject of the fundamentalist Christian idea of hell, the very existence of an eternal hell can only be the result of gratuitous and inexplicable cruelty on the part of your ID creator gods. Were the Christian version of Gods actually not cruel and vindictive then such suffering would be unnecessary. they could simply reward who they choose and cause the others to cease existence. But no! Instead your Gods supposed punishment was an eternity having your flesh burned off over and over again.

Who, exactly, wants multiverses and intelligent aliens? That's a nonsense claim you made while never bothering to offer an intelligible reason why you made such a claim,

 

[james bond]

Who, exactly, wants multiverses and intelligent aliens?

The atheists and their evolutionist scientists badly want multiverses and intelligent aliens because God did not create them. They do not want to go to hell and be miserable forever. I would think we would die because of the end of the world, natural, or other causes before multiverses or any alien life is found (unless panspermia but that is doubtful, too). So far, the atheists are hellbound as there is no evidence for either.

Why is it that science backs up what the Bible says and not evolution? Could it be that the assumption of billions of years universe and Earth are wrong? We have the hard evidence of soft tissue in dinosaur fossils. We have the Precambrian explosion. We have the CMB and big bang. We have God as dark energy. We may have dark matter, too (see below). We have the explanation for light-slit duality. We have the evidence for traveling forward in time, but not backward which negates the multiverse of the past.

A Galaxy with little or no dark matter
"A recent discovery revealed that a nearby galaxy, NGC 1052-DF2, has little or no dark matter.1 NGC 1052-DF2 is a little more than 60 million light years away and is about the same size of the Milky Way. However, NGC 1052-DF2 is much fainter than the Milky Way or other galaxies of similar size. Application of the M/L ratio reveals a lighted mass of about 200 million times that of the sun. The orbital motion of 10 objects, presumed to be globular clusters, produced a dynamic mass only slightly larger than the lighted mass. Considering the likely errors involved, this result is consistent with little or no dark matter in this galaxy. However, this galaxy certainly is large enough for MOND to operate, if MOND is correct. The fact that the dynamic mass of this galaxy is consistent with its lighted mass would seem to eliminate MOND as a viable theory. Paradoxically, the discovery that there is no dark matter in this particular galaxy amounts to evidence that dark matter exists in other galaxies."

A Galaxy with Little or No Dark Matter

The discovery of a galaxy with little or no dark matter disproves MOND. Therefore, the reality of dark matter is more certain.

answersingenesis.org

 

[james bond]

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

 

[JoeB131]

That's your achilles heel. Anyway, what's done is done, i.e. your will was done (not God's will).

You know, I do understand why people gloss over the Bible verses. I did the same before being born again. For example, the biggest may be 6,000 year old Earth versus billions of years old Earth. That is a considerable difference. But our history really shows a young Earth, i.e. not much has happened. Thus, it comes down to whether you believe the assumptions of the evolutionary timeline or the Bible.

So why did God create stars Billions or Millions of years ago where the light is only reaching Earth now?

All I know about Dahmer is what I read in papers and various articles and now on Reddit. He could be who Hannibal the Cannibal character was based on. What do you have? Do you think he really repented? Or it's just part of your taunting?

Um. No. Hannibal the Cannibal was based on Ed Guien, a killer from the 1950's. So was Norman Bates in Psycho. So was the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

I don't know if he repented or not, but working on the assumption his repentance was sincere, he gets into heaven because Jesus forgives all sins.

I think Anne Frank was saved because she was still young and wasn't exposed to the Bible. I never read much beyond her being a hero as a kid, but her diary seems to still hold interest. I mean it's not WW II time anymore, but still people are interested. Could it be because of what you brought up?

Again, this is kind of messed up, isn't it? So if you aren't 'exposed' to the bible, you get into heaven, but if you are exposed to it and don't live an absolutely perfect life, you are going to Hell?

That's interesting. Those memories must be very vivid. How young were you? We all know that death is inevitable, but we don't know when it will be or how. We expect it to happen, but aren't really ready for it. Jesus told us to be ready. In one way, we welcome it as part of our natural life.

Both of my parents died of cancer when I was 19-20. And pretty much, the Conduct of various Church people I encountered during that time escalated my view of the Church from "This is BS" to "Fuck you and the donkey you road in on." Like the priest who wouldn't come to the Cemetary for my Dad because he was being cremated. Or the Nun who said, "God had to have a reason" when my mom died. Fuck these people.

I don't have definite evidence based on what I've read on Anne Frank, but she was one of the better stories about WW II and Nazis. Why would Jews be the ones Hitler tried to genocide? Us Bible readers would know, but it happened very fast during WW II and may not have been known what would happen. I do know that Charles Darwin supported Eugenics and racism (it's in the Descent of Man book), but wasn't against Jews. Hitler was greatly influenced by what he read about Eugenics and social Darwism. Yet, Jews were the ones deported to the Nazi camps. Were the other countries just cooperating with Hitler or afraid of his power? I suppose there were others that Hitler hated, but we remember the Holocaust.

Actually, no. I know that's one of the Christian go-to positions about the Holocaust. But here's the real reason why the Germans killed the Jews. Anti-Semitism is kind of engrained in German culture. Martin Luther, the father of German Protestantism, wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Catholic Areas of Germany performed passion plays that directly blamed the Jews for killing Christ. 2000 years of telling Christians that Jews killed their God man, that's why Jews have been oppressed for centuries, nothing to do with Darwin at all.

I'm not sure what Christian justice means, but I think you're referring to what Christians did in history and still do today. No doubt, they were vicious in believing they were right in getting justice based on Christianity, but that isn't what Jesus taught. It's still part of Christians being like God and thinking they are right when it comes to what's good and what's evil. That's what Satan told Adam and Eve. They would know what's good and what's bad like God by eating the fruit. It's very easy to fall prey to. We still continue to eat the fruit to this day and probably will continue to do it.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman Fallacy". All those Christians who did bad things, even with Popes and Bishops telling them to, killing each other over whether or not the Eucharist really turns into Jesus or how many sacrements there are... when they weren't oppressing Jews and Muslism, they weren't "True" Christians. Got it.

Christian Justice is kind of messed up.

 

[Hollie]

Who, exactly, wants multiverses and intelligent aliens?

The atheists and their evolutionist scientists badly want multiverses and intelligent aliens because God did not create them. They do not want to go to hell and be miserable forever. I would think we would die because of the end of the world, natural, or other causes before multiverses or any alien life is found (unless panspermia but that is doubtful, too). So far, the atheists are hellbound as there is no evidence for either.

Why is it that science backs up what the Bible says and not evolution? Could it be that the assumption of billions of years universe and Earth are wrong? We have the hard evidence of soft tissue in dinosaur fossils. We have the Precambrian explosion. We have the CMB and big bang. We have God as dark energy. We may have dark matter, too (see below). We have the explanation for light-slit duality. We have the evidence for traveling forward in time, but not backward which negates the multiverse of the past.

A Galaxy with little or no dark matter
"A recent discovery revealed that a nearby galaxy, NGC 1052-DF2, has little or no dark matter.1 NGC 1052-DF2 is a little more than 60 million light years away and is about the same size of the Milky Way. However, NGC 1052-DF2 is much fainter than the Milky Way or other galaxies of similar size. Application of the M/L ratio reveals a lighted mass of about 200 million times that of the sun. The orbital motion of 10 objects, presumed to be globular clusters, produced a dynamic mass only slightly larger than the lighted mass. Considering the likely errors involved, this result is consistent with little or no dark matter in this galaxy. However, this galaxy certainly is large enough for MOND to operate, if MOND is correct. The fact that the dynamic mass of this galaxy is consistent with its lighted mass would seem to eliminate MOND as a viable theory. Paradoxically, the discovery that there is no dark matter in this particular galaxy amounts to evidence that dark matter exists in other galaxies."

A Galaxy with Little or No Dark Matter

The discovery of a galaxy with little or no dark matter disproves MOND. Therefore, the reality of dark matter is more certain.

answersingenesis.org

Aside from you, who is claiming that atheists and their evilutionist atheist scientists badly want multiverses and intelligent aliens? I’ve haven’t read of evilutionist atheist scientists demanding anything you claim so I’m left to suspect your rant is something that derives from one or more of the fundamentalist ministries.

It can’t be ruled out that multiverses and intelligent aliens could be the product of gods other than your various gods. How’s that for a kick in the pants? In this earthly realm, there are of course, lots of claimed gods besides your gods. The universe may therefore have designer gods much better at designing than your gods.

Why is it that you claim science “backs up” the Bibles when that is not the case? Can you provide documentary evidence where science backs up a flat earth?

Why would you expect anyone but another fundamentalist Christian to accept anything from AIG? As you know, AIG as well as all of the ID creation ministries require their members agree to a “Statement of Faith” that predefines their conclusions about matters related to science exploration. As you know, none of the ID Creation ministries do research. None of the ID Creation ministries publish in peer reviewed journals. Objective observers understand that the ID Creation ministries will invariably ignore facts and data to press their religious bias.

 

[Bernhard]

If your faith in Jesus and Christianity depends on whether every single word written in the Bible is literal scientific truth, you've lost that battle centuries ago.

Which is sad, because I believe there are many ways to believe in Jesus and the truth of the Bible, without having to mistake it for science.

 

[james bond]

So why did God create stars Billions or Millions of years ago where the light is only reaching Earth now?

The light is time dilated. Humans only assume 4.5 billion years because of Darwinism. For example, the age of the Earth kept getting older over time. 3 billion years wasn't enough. Do you know who figured out 4.5 billion years and how?

This question cannot be answered with certainty. It's based on what one assumes. YEC assume one day = 24 hrs in the Bible.

I don't know if he repented or not, but working on the assumption his repentance was sincere, he gets into heaven because Jesus forgives all sins.

We don't know for sure since Jesus is the only one to look into his heart. Was Dahmer baptized, too?

Again, this is kind of messed up, isn't it? So if you aren't 'exposed' to the bible, you get into heaven, but if you are exposed to it and don't live an absolutely perfect life, you are going to Hell?

Usually, young children are innocent but she was a teen. It's more about what you think, know, and understand I think. Plenty of verses in the Bible which excuse people because they weren't capable. Her life was unusual, difficult, sad, and heartbreaking. It probably shows the evil of Hitler and his Nazis more.

As for the Buddhists, most won't get in unless they put trust in Jesus through what they heard about him and observed in nature. If they did that, then they could be of different religion and still get in. They probably knew the differences as adults. I dunno. These aren't easy questions to answer.

I did a little more looking into this.

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

Thus, if they found something more and believed sincerely in it, even though different religion, then they could get it. Obviously, atheism would be a conflict right off the bat. They would not acknowledge Romans 1:20 and deny it.

Today, atheists think they'll get in if they didn't do anything wrong if God turns out to be true. Many will think they've reached the gates of heaven when it isn't that at all. The Buddhists have the idea of Nirvana and karma, so they have some idea of heaven and hell. Each individual is faced with what exists in nature. I dunno for sure.

Both of my parents died of cancer when I was 19-20. And pretty much, the Conduct of various Church people I encountered during that time escalated my view of the Church from "This is BS" to "Fuck you and the donkey you road in on." Like the priest who wouldn't come to the Cemetary for my Dad because he was being cremated. Or the Nun who said, "God had to have a reason" when my mom died. Fuck these people.

Sorry about your experience. I can see why you rejected that church and Catholicism.

It's difficult for me to say where these people were coming from because now I know Catholicism isn't Christianity. I didn't know when I went to parochial elementary school. It's their own version of Christianity and may lead people astray. For example, we hear about Pope Francis and his words which go against what the Bible says. Or salvation requires much more with Catholicsm. Why is it that way and goes further that what the Bible says? We come to the conclusion, it isn't true Christianity and may lead people astray. But even this, I didn't realize until much later.

I think what Romans 1:20 states above is true in that nature reveals God to us. It's from other people that we are swayed away.

Maybe it was my upbringing, but even as a kid I knew there was something more from observing the world. Just the sky, trees, the great outdoors, the way things worked. Nature talks, so my trust in God was there. It is an individual path. I just didn't know which religion, so just followed Catholicism at first.

Actually, no. I know that's one of the Christian go-to positions about the Holocaust. But here's the real reason why the Germans killed the Jews. Anti-Semitism is kind of engrained in German culture. Martin Luther, the father of German Protestantism, wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Catholic Areas of Germany performed passion plays that directly blamed the Jews for killing Christ. 2000 years of telling Christians that Jews killed their God man, that's why Jews have been oppressed for centuries, nothing to do with Darwin at all.

That's difficult for me to say because I grew up around German-American people. I think many were Catholic, but I dunno. Maybe some were Nazi or still had Nazi sympathies. I didn't know if they still hated Jews because they didn't talk about it to me. If they had strong feelings, then they probably would have.

Are we talking about the same Martin Luther? He was a German monk who wrote the 95 Theses and went against the Catholic church. He was the one who started Lutheranism and true Christianity (he was ex-communicated by Pope Leo X).

"The 95 Theses
Committed to the idea that salvation could be reached through faith and by divine grace only, Luther vigorously objected to the corrupt practice of selling indulgences. Acting on this belief, he wrote the “Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences,” also known as “The 95 Theses,” a list of questions and propositions for debate. Popular legend has it that on October 31, 1517 Luther defiantly nailed a copy of his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Castle church. The reality was probably not so dramatic; Luther more likely hung the document on the door of the church matter-of-factly to announce the ensuing academic discussion around it that he was organizing.

The 95 Theses, which would later become the foundation of the Protestant Reformation, were written in a remarkably humble and academic tone, questioning rather than accusing. The overall thrust of the document was nonetheless quite provocative. The first two of the theses contained Luther’s central idea, that God intended believers to seek repentance and that faith alone, and not deeds, would lead to salvation. The other 93 theses, a number of them directly criticizing the practice of indulgences, supported these first two."

Martin Luther and the 95 Theses - Summary, Origins & Video | HISTORY

Martin Luther was a German theologian who challenged a number of teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. His 1517 document, "95 Theses," sparked the Protestant Reformation. Read a summary of the document, the reasons he wrote it and watch a brief video.

www.history.com

As for his anti-Semitism it came after failing to convert the Jews to Lutheranism, but tell me more.

OTOH, Darwin's racism led directly to social Darwinism, taking "survival of the fittest" from Herbert Spencer and putting it in his first book, and Hitler using survival of the fittest as his credo. Hitler adopted eugenics in finding ways to kill the Jews. We still have Planned Parenthood to this day in black and poor neighborhoods. What a disgusting, filthy POS Darwin was!!! He may as well have been skinned alive and boiled in oil had people knew.

What we know is that Darwin was wrong with most of his hypotheses. He and his family were racist (read The Descent of Man) and he advocated it and it was passed down as it became evolution.

Eugenics in the United States | Cultural Anthropology

courses.lumenlearning.com

"The movement considered many other attributes to be hereditary — from feeblemindedness, pauperism and criminality to promiscuity among women and even love of the sea. Love of the sea was pretty much a curiosity, but people with the rest of those "undesired" traits were in the sights of the movement as it sought to prevent them from marrying or having children, often through forced or coerced sterilization.

The scrapbook at the American Philosophical Society features eugenics activities at several state fairs: public presentations, examination buildings and "fitter family contests."

In a way, this makes perfect sense. Born out of a society that was still making the transition from agricultural to industrial, much of the eugenics argument was based on the idea that we selectively breed our livestock for desired traits; why not do the same with human society? As one sign asks, "Are you a thoroughbred?"

It was the Christians who fought eugenics in America.

"Anti-Eugenics Sentiment
Anti-eugenics sentiment began to appear after 1910 and intensified during the 1930s. Most commonly it was based on religious grounds. For example, the 1930 papal encyclical Casti connubii condemned reproductive sterilization, though it did not specifically prohibit positive eugenic attempts to amplify the inheritance of beneficial traits. Many Protestant writings sought to reconcile age-old Christian warnings about the heritable sins of the father to pro-eugenic ideals. Indeed, most of the religion-based popular writings of the period supported positive means of improving the physical and moral makeup of humanity."

Eugenics still exists to this day as new Eugenics. Racism is still alive and well with evolutionists.

"Applications of the Human Genome Project are often referred to as “Brave New World” genetics or the “new eugenics,” in part because they have helped to dramatically increase knowledge of human genetics. In addition, 21st-century technologies such as gene editing, which can potentially be used to treat disease or to alter traits, have further renewed concerns. However, the ethical, legal, and social implications of such tools are monitored much more closely than were early 20th-century eugenics programs. Applications generally are more focused on the reduction of genetic diseases than on improving intelligence.

Still, with or without the use of the term, many eugenics-related concerns are reemerging as a new group of individuals decide how to regulate the application of genetics science and technology. This gene-directed activity, in attempting to improve upon nature, may not be that distant from what Galton implied in 1909 when he described eugenics as the “study of agencies, under social control, which may improve or impair” future generations."

Eugenics - Social Darwinism, Sterilization, Eugenicists

Eugenics - Social Darwinism, Sterilization, Eugenicists: During the 1930s eugenics gained considerable popular support across the United States. Hygiene courses in public schools and eugenics courses in colleges spread eugenic-minded values to many. A eugenics exhibit titled “Pedigree-Study in...

www.britannica.com

Ah, the "No True Scotsman Fallacy". All those Christians who did bad things, even with Popes and Bishops telling them to, killing each other over whether or not the Eucharist really turns into Jesus or how many sacrements there are... when they weren't oppressing Jews and Muslism, they weren't "True" Christians. Got it.

Christian Justice is kind of messed up.

You're lumping Catholics and Christians together. Christians don't have popes and bishops. What happened with Lutheranism and his 95 Theses? Maybe you missed a lot of what Martin Luther and his 95 Theses did (he even translated the Bible into German) and are just focusing on the negative aspects of ML and today's Christianity.

 

[james bond]

Who, exactly, wants multiverses and intelligent aliens?

The atheists and their evolutionist scientists badly want multiverses and intelligent aliens because God did not create them. They do not want to go to hell and be miserable forever. I would think we would die because of the end of the world, natural, or other causes before multiverses or any alien life is found (unless panspermia but that is doubtful, too). So far, the atheists are hellbound as there is no evidence for either.

Why is it that science backs up what the Bible says and not evolution? Could it be that the assumption of billions of years universe and Earth are wrong? We have the hard evidence of soft tissue in dinosaur fossils. We have the Precambrian explosion. We have the CMB and big bang. We have God as dark energy. We may have dark matter, too (see below). We have the explanation for light-slit duality. We have the evidence for traveling forward in time, but not backward which negates the multiverse of the past.

A Galaxy with little or no dark matter
"A recent discovery revealed that a nearby galaxy, NGC 1052-DF2, has little or no dark matter.1 NGC 1052-DF2 is a little more than 60 million light years away and is about the same size of the Milky Way. However, NGC 1052-DF2 is much fainter than the Milky Way or other galaxies of similar size. Application of the M/L ratio reveals a lighted mass of about 200 million times that of the sun. The orbital motion of 10 objects, presumed to be globular clusters, produced a dynamic mass only slightly larger than the lighted mass. Considering the likely errors involved, this result is consistent with little or no dark matter in this galaxy. However, this galaxy certainly is large enough for MOND to operate, if MOND is correct. The fact that the dynamic mass of this galaxy is consistent with its lighted mass would seem to eliminate MOND as a viable theory. Paradoxically, the discovery that there is no dark matter in this particular galaxy amounts to evidence that dark matter exists in other galaxies."

A Galaxy with Little or No Dark Matter

The discovery of a galaxy with little or no dark matter disproves MOND. Therefore, the reality of dark matter is more certain.

answersingenesis.org

Aside from you, who is claiming that atheists and their evilutionist atheist scientists badly want multiverses and intelligent aliens? I’ve haven’t read of evilutionist atheist scientists demanding anything you claim so I’m left to suspect your rant is something that derives from one or more of the fundamentalist ministries.

It can’t be ruled out that multiverses and intelligent aliens could be the product of gods other than your various gods. How’s that for a kick in the pants? In this earthly realm, there are of course, lots of claimed gods besides your gods. The universe may therefore have designer gods much better at designing than your gods.

Why is it that you claim science “backs up” the Bibles when that is not the case? Can you provide documentary evidence where science backs up a flat earth?

Why would you expect anyone but another fundamentalist Christian to accept anything from AIG? As you know, AIG as well as all of the ID creation ministries require their members agree to a “Statement of Faith” that predefines their conclusions about matters related to science exploration. As you know, none of the ID Creation ministries do research. None of the ID Creation ministries publish in peer reviewed journals. Objective observers understand that the ID Creation ministries will invariably ignore facts and data to press their religious bias.

Nobody takes you seriously here because you continue to talk about the flat Earth.

 

[james bond]

If your faith in Jesus and Christianity depends on whether every single word written in the Bible is literal scientific truth, you've lost that battle centuries ago.

Which is sad, because I believe there are many ways to believe in Jesus and the truth of the Bible, without having to mistake it for science.

I already gave you the evidence.

"Why is it that science backs up what the Bible says and not evolution? Could it be that the assumption of billions of years universe and Earth are wrong? We have the hard evidence of soft tissue in dinosaur fossils. We have the Precambrian explosion. We have the CMB and big bang. We have God as dark energy. We may have dark matter, too (see below). We have the explanation for light-slit duality. We have the evidence for traveling forward in time, but not backward which negates the multiverse of the past."

Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence for intelligent aliens, multiverses, and time travel back in time. You are wrong and a sad little man because you believe in fairy tales.