Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the

[Shogun]

bullshit. stop trying to pretend that your little boy is not a murderer.


I don't PROMOTE atheism. A persons dogma opinon is their own private issue. I have no more interest in getting others to be atheist than I do getting them to buy a fish tank just because I like aquariums. Indeed, prothletization seems to be a solidly religious venture. You've never seen me "share the wonderful news of atheism" with anyone because I don't care what others' personal beliefs are. THATS a significant difference between atheists and christians.. I DONT HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE ELSE PRAYS THE WAY I DO. That alone is worth centuries of christian turmoil.

If I, and my fellows, am skeptical of your dogma it has more to do with logic, reason and the adoption of the scientific method then it does trying to undermine christianity. If your dogma passed the scientific challenge then we probably wouldn't have had an imprisoned Gallileo and a bunch of geocentric imperatives. You may see atheism as a threat thanks to the pattern of science deflating your mythology but, what can I say, eventually we'd have to accept that the world is not flat despite how many astronomists get locked up for offending christianity. You can believe that we are the tool of some pitchfork wielding devil but, like Ive said, what else is new when christians don't have a clear monopoly on the minds of a society.


the things I have listed are NOT the product of christians straying from the path. Like I said, lets talk about some popes.


No, the problem is when christians decide that they must invoke their dogma when it is clear that people are not interested. I am reminded of the entire I.D. debate but, im sure, THOSE people are not christians either.. or something.


christianity, like ANY other common identity, can and has been a major cause of societal conflict. I don't care if your affiliation wont allow you to accept that but it's the fact.

 

[AllieBaba]

What little boy????

I didn't accuse you of promoting atheism. You do attack Christianity and Christians often and with vigor, however.

You would never use the language you use to degrade Christians and Christianity if I were, for example, an Indian talking about the Great Spirit.

 

[Shogun]

I have a stake in Christianity sort of the way you have a stake in promoting atheism.

I didn't accuse you of promoting atheism.


are you blind, deaf, dumb or just fucking stupid today, allie?

You do attack Christianity and Christians often and with vigor, however.

Yes, I a proverbial roman lion. I am obviously what jebus meant by being persicuted.. *yawn*


You would never use the language you use to degrade Christians and Christianity if I were, for example, an Indian talking about the Great Spirit.

If you were an indian insisting that the great spirit be taught in the science class on par with evolution then you'd be mistaken. Unformtuntaly for your arguement we don't see natives trying to pack their dogma into our collective society like a meat grinder or claiming to be picked on by the slightest rebuke of dogma. You see, allie, THEY know what it's like to be the dominated rather than the dominators. YOu certainly have no idea what thats like from your perch on the self righteous tree. When natives start pretending that 2000 years of christianity have all been "fake" christians and not the product of the christian identity and rampant fear of alternative opinions then your silly little allusion might have made sense.

 

[Diuretic]

Bullshit. It is plain and simple. There is no nuiance you can spin on it. The attempt to vilify religion fails over and over and your response is, "gee, those guys didn't do it cause of athiesm they just did it for power."

Come on, cut out the simplistic reflexive responses and use some decent arguments for a change. You might think in black and white but most of us know there are subtleties that need to be explored.

 

[AllieBaba]

I have a stake in Christianity sort of the way you have a stake in promoting atheism.

I didn't accuse you of promoting atheism.


are you blind, deaf, dumb or just fucking stupid today, allie?

You do attack Christianity and Christians often and with vigor, however.

Yes, I a proverbial roman lion. I am obviously what jebus meant by being persicuted.. *yawn*


You would never use the language you use to degrade Christians and Christianity if I were, for example, an Indian talking about the Great Spirit.

If you were an indian insisting that the great spirit be taught in the science class on par with evolution then you'd be mistaken. Unformtuntaly for your arguement we don't see natives trying to pack their dogma into our collective society like a meat grinder or claiming to be picked on by the slightest rebuke of dogma. You see, allie, THEY know what it's like to be the dominated rather than the dominators. YOu certainly have no idea what thats like from your perch on the self righteous tree. When natives start pretending that 2000 years of christianity have all been "fake" christians and not the product of the christian identity and rampant fear of alternative opinions then your silly little allusion might have made sense.

Check out an Indian charter school sometime. They do teach it in the classrooms.

Can always tell when I hit a nerve with you. You start sputtering and spitting.

 

[Diuretic]

So Allie, what's your take on the historical treatment of heretics? Say, the Albigensians?

 

[AllieBaba]

My take is that it's an evil endeavor, guided by politicians. Not by Christianity.

 

[Shogun]

Check out an Indian charter school sometime. They do teach it in the classrooms.

Can always tell when I hit a nerve with you. You start sputtering and spitting.

oh stop flirting with me, Allie... You live too far away to get the full spectrum of my charming personality.

Indian charter schools are not public schools, eh? Whay would I care what the Amish teach in THEIR OWN schools? I don't.

 

[Shogun]

My take is that it's an evil endeavor, guided by politicians. Not by Christianity.

hehehe.. riiiiight.

you keep thinking that. Being wrong is your constitutionally given right.

 

[AllieBaba]

If you're going to argue that the (Spanish) Inquisition, the treatment of "heretics," and the conquering of South America were CHRISTIAN endeavors and not political ones, you have more screws loose than I imagined.

The church worked at the behest of the government during the Inquisition. Just offhand, the burning of heretics in England was at the behest of the government (think "Bloody Mary". How do you think she got that name?)

She didn't slaughter people because she was Christian. She slaughtered them because she had been warped from childhood and it suited those around her to encourage this behavior because power was divided along religious lines.

It's politics, not religion. Sorry to take away your bad guy.

 

[Shogun]

If you're going to argue that the (Spanish) Inquisition, the treatment of "heretics," and the conquering of South America were CHRISTIAN endeavors and not political ones, you have more screws loose than I imagined.

The church worked at the behest of the government during the Inquisition. Just offhand, the burning of heretics in England was at the behest of the government (think "Bloody Mary". How do you think she got that name?)

She didn't slaughter people because she was Christian. She slaughtered them because she had been warped from childhood and it suited those around her to encourage this behavior because power was divided along religious lines.

It's politics, not religion. Sorry to take away your bad guy.

Ill remember that this election season when your party runs on injecting christianity into public forums in order to woo their vote.

If you think that christianity was merely a beurocratic aspect to the politics of these OVERTLY CHRISTIAN NATIONS then you are trying to hard to keep from feeling like your club has major historic liability. Like I said, let's cover some popes, allie.. that's right up your, uh, alley, right?

 

[Diuretic]

My take is that it's an evil endeavor, guided by politicians. Not by Christianity.

Agreed - and this is why there should be no state religion and the church or the temple or the mosque or the ashram or the stupa, should have no temporal power.

 

[Diuretic]

I'll take this further. Humanity won't be truly free until it's free of superstitious ideas such as religion. Granted we may be hard-wired to need gods as a result of our evolution but that still doesn't mean we need to live under the yoke of religion.

 

[Shogun]

I don't think that the need for religion is hardwired at all. I think it is the product of ignorance and is the human reaction to the unknown. dont know why the sun moves accross the sky? a guy in a flaming chariot pulls it! Don't know where the seasons come from? The GODS did it! Don't know what happens after we die? [insert heaven theory of choice]

religion always conflics with science because science allows human reason to understand it's natural environment beyond the myths of dogma. This is why religious practice changes to fit the times while refusing to accept scientific observation.


Im not interested in purging the world of christianity. I'm interested in a plural society where individual choices of dogma are not worth conflicting over for the sake of social domination. If christians could only get along with others...

 

[AllieBaba]

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, just the opposite.

Given the history of great thinkers who believed, I find it incredibly arrogant that you think religion is the result of ignorance. What a laugh. If it was simply ignorance, it wouldn't be so successful, and small minds like yours would have been able to put it to bed long ago.

The truth is, it's beyond you. You don't trust what you can't control, and you can't control God. So you choose not to believe, and that makes you feel better.

Instead of believing in something bigger, better and greater than yourself, you choose to wallow in self-deception and arrogance.

Tell me what's more ignorant than that.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't think that the need for religion is hardwired at all. I think it is the product of ignorance and is the human reaction to the unknown. dont know why the sun moves accross the sky? a guy in a flaming chariot pulls it! Don't know where the seasons come from? The GODS did it! Don't know what happens after we die? [insert heaven theory of choice]

religion always conflics with science because science allows human reason to understand it's natural environment beyond the myths of dogma. This is why religious practice changes to fit the times while refusing to accept scientific observation.


Im not interested in purging the world of christianity. I'm interested in a plural society where individual choices of dogma are not worth conflicting over for the sake of social domination. If christians could only get along with others...

I often think that humans are a cursed animal. In common with all animals we are aware of danger but perhaps alone among animals (I've read some reports of elephants apparently "mourning" - but I have to avoid anthropocentrism) we are aware of the fact that we will cease to exist. There's evidence of funeral rituals going back thousands and thousands of years among humans. We need an afterlife myth to deal with the awful realisation that none of us are going to be around forever.

We needed a god-belief system to try and make sense of our environment. Which you've pointed out. If we can put the god-belief need in with the afterlife myth we can allay the natural fears we have which are a result of our intelligence. I can't prove it but I suspect that our wonderful brains, the most developed on Earth, have built in a feelgood factor - god-belief and the ability to imagine an afterlife.

 

[Diuretic]

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, just the opposite.

Given the history of great thinkers who believed, I find it incredibly arrogant that you think religion is the result of ignorance. What a laugh. If it was simply ignorance, it wouldn't be so successful, and small minds like yours would have been able to put it to bed long ago.

The truth is, it's beyond you. You don't trust what you can't control, and you can't control God. So you choose not to believe, and that makes you feel better.

Instead of believing in something bigger, better and greater than yourself, you choose to wallow in self-deception and arrogance.

Tell me what's more ignorant than that.

Nice rant - a bit personal but a nice rant.

Got anything rational?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

bullshit. you may not accept it like the mother of a convict insisting that her kid is innocent but...


the fact remains.


witch burning christians were still christians.

Crusading christians were still christians.

Conquistadors were STILL christians.

Slave owning whites were STILL christians.

the klan are STILL christians.

like I said, distancing yourself by insisting that christiany has never caused evil is a total fucking farce. If you are catholic This is doubly true. We can paruze some popes if you like...

I suggest you read the bible and you WILL find that they were in fact NOT chrisitians as you claim.

 

[Shogun]

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, just the opposite.

Given the history of great thinkers who believed, I find it incredibly arrogant that you think religion is the result of ignorance. What a laugh. If it was simply ignorance, it wouldn't be so successful, and small minds like yours would have been able to put it to bed long ago.

The truth is, it's beyond you. You don't trust what you can't control, and you can't control God. So you choose not to believe, and that makes you feel better.

Instead of believing in something bigger, better and greater than yourself, you choose to wallow in self-deception and arrogance.

Tell me what's more ignorant than that.

yea, tell the ghost of copernicus all about how christianity embraced what we now know to be the solid fact of heliocentrism.

Early thinkers BELIEVED because heritic laws and penalties tend to sway behaviour like that. I dont know about you but being burned as a witch or declaring a scientific observation that is labeled heresy just doesn't seem fun. Some WERE christians... But, hilariously, they have to adjust their DOGMA to fit their SCIENCE every time. Every fucking time. Show me a geology scientist worth his salt that REALLY thinks that the world is less than 6k years old.

Religion IS the result of ignorance. You simply dont see science being displaced by "supernatural observation". Name one single occurance if you can. I, however, have a plethora of dogma that has been overturned by science. Indeed, it's why the church, and people liek you, insist on injecting I.D. into the science classroom when we all know damn well christianity is not validated by the scientific process. But hey, flatearther, let's pretend that the prime conflict between science and relgiion does not REVOLVE (HA!, get it? REVOLVE) around scientific evidence usurping christian tradition.

As they say, give a monkey a brain and he will believe that he is the centre of the universe.


Indeed, facing the autonomy of humanity isn't half as ignorant as dancing around the bonfire praying for the sky god to deliver rain.

 

[Shogun]

I suggest you read the bible and you WILL find that they were in fact NOT chrisitians as you claim.

I've read the bible multiple times. It cracks me when you people automatically assume that an atheist simply isn't familiar with the scripture.

Indeed, they WERE christian as THEY claim. Much like YOU are despite alucard's quickness to degrade your particular denomination.