Assault on Waco

[MikeK]

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

For every authoritarian/dominant personality there are a dozen or more authoritarian/submissives. Were this not true the Third Reich could not have risen.

If it were not true there would not be sexual sado/masochistic behavior.

If it were not true those who chose to act in a manner which led to the death of 21 innocent children at Waco would have been prosecuted for their criminally negligent and sadistic conduct.

 

[jillian]

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

 

[westwall]

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.

 

[Swagger]

Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.

But one question.

Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.

 

[MikeK]

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

Jillian,

If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a Holocaust.

Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time. And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.

But one question.

Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.

I want to correct something right off the bat; no one is "pro-Koresh."

David Koresh was a megalomaniac and a cult leader. Suspicions of sex with underaged girls were well founded, but not the "child molesting" the Clinton administration later promoted. Like many cult leaders, Koresh took ALL of the women in the cult as his own harem. Koresh, declaring himself a prophet (The branch Davidians were a break off of 7th Day Adventists) had stated that god revealed the age one becomes a women to be 14, thus the girls in the cult were to have sex with him starting on their 14th birthday. (Probably a correct interpretation of Mosiac law, holding that one is a child THROUGH the 13th year.)

Koresh was a scumbag and insane.

None of this changes anything.

First off, the BATF has no jurisdiction over sex statutes. If there was evidence of child abuse, then the County Sheriff and child protective services were the proper authority.

Secondly, there was an embedded FBI agent in the cult, who was not able to identify any illegal acts. Even the sex was ambiguous. There was never any evidence of illegal guns, the BATF fabricated an affidavit in an attempt to get a warrant, which was not issued.

Secondly, no attempt to serve a warrant was ever made, the BATF started with a guns blazing, military assault on the compound. They clearly intended to use a military assault and kill Koresh and several of the men as a means of covering for their lack of warrant. Arrests bring courts and examinations of evidence and procedure.

Be clear, the BATF was there to kill, not to arrest anyone.

So yes, the Davidians reaction was the correct one, to defend themselves from a gang of armed murderers.

 

[Swagger]

Sorry, that was the wrong phrase to use. What I meant by "pro-Koresh" was his reaction to the illegal entry of the compound. Not any beliefs he held, positions he bestowed upon himself, etc.

 

[MikeK]

Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.

But one question.

Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.

One of the saddest elements of the Waco story is the generally unknown fact that Koresh believed rather strongly during the initial stages of the seige that the media would eventually gain access to them and when the American public learned the truth about what was happening the result would be such pressure on Washington the President would be forced to intervene and there would be a truthful hearing of the facts. What he didn't count on is federal suppression of the media, which was a brazen violation of Amendment One (Freedom of the Press).

Reporters were sequestered in an area about a mile from the scene of the seige, supposedly "for their own protection." The only access to information they had was afforded them by an FBI liaison -- and that information is what you and the rest of the world "watched unfold on the news." One reporter attempted to defy the constraint and make his way to the residence but he was arrested by the FBI.

There is so much more to the Waco story than the general public has the slightest awareness of, such as Koresh's ongoing conflict with the BATF, which had gone on for more than a year before the raid. If you wish to learn more about the Waco Massacre I recommend you Google the following: "Carol Moore - Waco" There you will have access to all the facts.

 

[jillian]

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.

It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts

 

[Swagger]

Except he wasn't the "perp" in this case. He was the victim.

 

[Uncensored2008]

It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts

In this case, the courts determined that the BATF lacked any credible basis for a warrant.

When Davy Aguilera of the BATF applied for a search warrant, they were refused. Here is why;

{While [agents] Skinner and Aguilera pored through McMahon's records, the dealer excused himself and telephoned Koresh. "I told him there were ATF agents at my house asking a lot of questions about him," McMahon said. "He said, 'If there's a problem, tell them to come out here. If they want to see my guns, they're more than welcome.'"

"So I walked back in the room, holding the cordless phone and said, 'I've got [Koresh] on the phone. If you'd like to go out there and see those guns, you're more than welcome to.' They looked at each other and Aguilera got real paranoid, shaking his head and whispering, "No, no!'" so I went back to the phone and told David they wouldn't be coming out.'" (Pate, 1993e:37)

On its face, such an invitation suggests (1) no warrant was needed, nor was an assault with 76 BATF agents; (2) Koresh either was in compliance with federal gun laws, believed he was in compliance, or believed he could hide any violations from invited guests. It has been suggested that accepting such invitations violates normal investigative techniques. There are, however, a few arguments against that explanation.}

The Tragedy at Waco

The BATF was only able to obtain an inspection warrant for "improper storage" of explosives based on an affidavit (U.S. Dept. of Treasury, 1993:26, 186) from a United Parcel Service (UPS) driver reported to the McLennan County sheriff's office of several deliveries of firearms components and explosives which the driver found suspicious.

This is not the arrest and search warrant the BATF later perjured itself by claiming they had, and would not confer a "no knock" authority to the BATF, which is a regulatory agency in the first place.

 

[hazlnut]

I fought the law, and the law won
I fought the law and the law won

The fact is the raid never should have happened. Nothing illegal was going on at the Compound. The ATF secretly took away the FFL licenses of those at the Compound just before the raid and claimed that illegal gun buying had occurred. Not true, every purchase was legal and followed the law.

Embarrassed after 3 months of siege the FBI staged an illegal raid using the military. The FBI KNEW that the wooden structured were set to be burned if attacked, with gasoline placed all over the structures, yet they authorized the use of tanks to not only break through the walls but spew flammable chemicals and fire starting canisters into the mix.

The compound was no threat during the 3 month siege not one shot was fired from the compound and no one attempted to leave. The FBI murdered those children.

There is no evidence that in the initial raid the civilians even fired on the ATF. The first pictures later taken down and never seen again had an ATF agent spraying a window with automatic fire where 3 of his partners had just entered. The door to the compound recovered intact had no bullet holes originating from inside the compound and was conveniently lost when Congress ask to see it. None of the cars in the parking lot had bullet holes originating from the compound all holes were from outside where the ATF was.

All the made up conspiracy theory bullshit doesn't mean squat.

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco have been investigated and in both instances there was misconduct by the ATF. That does not mitigate or excuse the Weavers criminal behavior. If federal law enforcement come with an arrest warrant and you resist or open fire on them, then you are responsible for what follows.

**Weaver had been indicted by a grand jury.

**Weaver missed a court date and a bench warrant was issued.

**Weaver refused to surrender to the U.S. Marshals. This dragged out for months while the U.S. Attorneys tried to arrange a peaceful surrender. -- Jesus, they were bending over backward to give this loon and easy way out.

**While scouting the Weaver property for a way to arrest Weaver without incident, the Weaver boys and their dog confronted U.S. Marshals. One dog was shot and the Weaver son fired on a U.S. Marshal. Let me repeat, a boy with a gun fired on a U.S. Marshal. Fuck you kid.

All the improper procedure and mishandling of the case up to that point by the ATF DO NOT give the Weavers the right to fire on a U.S. Marshal with an arrest warrant.

I won't excuse some of the early missteps by the ATF, but these backwoods paranoid fucks, the Weavers, cost the government and taxpayers thousands of man hours with all their stupid loony-toons home school bullshit.

What happened that day was a tragedy that could have been avoided. But you fuck with federal law enforcement and you play stupid paranoid games and refuse to cooperate or acknowledge their authority, YOU WILL GO DOWN.

Ultimately it was Randy Weaver and his paranoia that killed his wife and children.

I know Timothy McVeigh has a whole different theory about the tragedy and he ran around the country with his copy of the Turner Diaries spreading the gospel of paranoia and idiocy.

Waco was a cult stockpiling weapons, while their leader had sex with underage girls. How it went down, the final siege, was another tragedy. But they too fired on federal officers. There is NO VALID REASON TO FIRE ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

 

[westwall]

Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.

But one question.

Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.

I want to correct something right off the bat; no one is "pro-Koresh."

David Koresh was a megalomaniac and a cult leader. Suspicions of sex with underaged girls were well founded, but not the "child molesting" the Clinton administration later promoted. Like many cult leaders, Koresh took ALL of the women in the cult as his own harem. Koresh, declaring himself a prophet (The branch Davidians were a break off of 7th Day Adventists) had stated that god revealed the age one becomes a women to be 14, thus the girls in the cult were to have sex with him starting on their 14th birthday. (Probably a correct interpretation of Mosiac law, holding that one is a child THROUGH the 13th year.)

Koresh was a scumbag and insane.

None of this changes anything.

First off, the BATF has no jurisdiction over sex statutes. If there was evidence of child abuse, then the County Sheriff and child protective services were the proper authority.

Secondly, there was an embedded FBI agent in the cult, who was not able to identify any illegal acts. Even the sex was ambiguous. There was never any evidence of illegal guns, the BATF fabricated an affidavit in an attempt to get a warrant, which was not issued.

Secondly, no attempt to serve a warrant was ever made, the BATF started with a guns blazing, military assault on the compound. They clearly intended to use a military assault and kill Koresh and several of the men as a means of covering for their lack of warrant. Arrests bring courts and examinations of evidence and procedure.

Be clear, the BATF was there to kill, not to arrest anyone.

So yes, the Davidians reaction was the correct one, to defend themselves from a gang of armed murderers.

I don't believe the initial intent was an all out assault. I believe they wanted to go in with overwhelming force and scare the inhabitants intosubmission. They weren't expecting to meet a fully prepared, motivated group of individuals.

The resulting fight was more a result of gross incompetance than malice aforethought.

 

[westwall]

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.

It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts

I agree. However, if there is no warrant, there is no order.

 

[Synthaholic]

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

Jillian,

If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a Holocaust.

Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time. And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.

 

[westwall]

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

Jillian,

If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a Holocaust.

Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time. And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.

Yeah, it's funny. Whenever you nazi's are losing you trot out good old Godwin in a vain effort to deflect the very real defeat you are suffering. Nice to see you stay true to form

 

[Againsheila]

it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?

No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.

It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts

So if they show up at your door claiming to have a warrant but refusing to show it to you, you're just gonna let them in? Especially after they have already started shooting?

 

[gipper]

I fought the law, and the law won
I fought the law and the law won

The fact is the raid never should have happened. Nothing illegal was going on at the Compound. The ATF secretly took away the FFL licenses of those at the Compound just before the raid and claimed that illegal gun buying had occurred. Not true, every purchase was legal and followed the law.

Embarrassed after 3 months of siege the FBI staged an illegal raid using the military. The FBI KNEW that the wooden structured were set to be burned if attacked, with gasoline placed all over the structures, yet they authorized the use of tanks to not only break through the walls but spew flammable chemicals and fire starting canisters into the mix.

The compound was no threat during the 3 month siege not one shot was fired from the compound and no one attempted to leave. The FBI murdered those children.

There is no evidence that in the initial raid the civilians even fired on the ATF. The first pictures later taken down and never seen again had an ATF agent spraying a window with automatic fire where 3 of his partners had just entered. The door to the compound recovered intact had no bullet holes originating from inside the compound and was conveniently lost when Congress ask to see it. None of the cars in the parking lot had bullet holes originating from the compound all holes were from outside where the ATF was.

All the made up conspiracy theory bullshit doesn't mean squat.

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco have been investigated and in both instances there was misconduct by the ATF. That does not mitigate or excuse the Weavers criminal behavior. If federal law enforcement come with an arrest warrant and you resist or open fire on them, then you are responsible for what follows.

**Weaver had been indicted by a grand jury.

**Weaver missed a court date and a bench warrant was issued.

**Weaver refused to surrender to the U.S. Marshals. This dragged out for months while the U.S. Attorneys tried to arrange a peaceful surrender. -- Jesus, they were bending over backward to give this loon and easy way out.

**While scouting the Weaver property for a way to arrest Weaver without incident, the Weaver boys and their dog confronted U.S. Marshals. One dog was shot and the Weaver son fired on a U.S. Marshal. Let me repeat, a boy with a gun fired on a U.S. Marshal. Fuck you kid.

All the improper procedure and mishandling of the case up to that point by the ATF DO NOT give the Weavers the right to fire on a U.S. Marshal with an arrest warrant.

I won't excuse some of the early missteps by the ATF, but these backwoods paranoid fucks, the Weavers, cost the government and taxpayers thousands of man hours with all their stupid loony-toons home school bullshit.

What happened that day was a tragedy that could have been avoided. But you fuck with federal law enforcement and you play stupid paranoid games and refuse to cooperate or acknowledge their authority, YOU WILL GO DOWN.

Ultimately it was Randy Weaver and his paranoia that killed his wife and children.

I know Timothy McVeigh has a whole different theory about the tragedy and he ran around the country with his copy of the Turner Diaries spreading the gospel of paranoia and idiocy.

Waco was a cult stockpiling weapons, while their leader had sex with underage girls. How it went down, the final siege, was another tragedy. But they too fired on federal officers. There is NO VALID REASON TO FIRE ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

You have completely misrepresented the facts of the Weaver case. You have accepted the government BS and ignored the truth, which is readily available if you care to look for it.

Weaver was minding his own business. Yes he had some involvement with a white supremacist group and hated the government. In your mind, that justifies the government murdering his wife and son over nothing.....He moved his family to a remote area to get away from society. He was entrapped by the ATF into sawing off a gun barrel...making it illegally too short at the undercover ATF agent's request....a quarter inch TOO SHORT, which lead to the murder of Weaver's wife and son by an out of control government agency....but you apparently are blind to this tyranny.

The government lied to Weaver about the court date. So, he never showed up in court so they went after him...more government entrapment. Cameras, helicopters, constant surveillance, snipers, etc....over a gun 1/4" too short.

Can you justify government agents shooting his son and wife dead, without ever identifying themselves? No doubt you can just as the government did.

The Weaver incident is an even WORSE example of government tyranny than Waco...and Waco is about as bad as it gets.

Failing to recognize tyranny, when it is right in front of you, is a tyrannical governments trump card.

 

[whitehall]

McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who was tried, convicted and executed in about seven years. The Feds chose not to investigate the political affiliation of the radical network McVeigh belonged to nor did they search for John Doe #1 or #2. They were content to arrest McVeigh associates who were not connected to the actual bombing. McVeigh was captured in record time after the bombing. The Feds aren't that good ...unless they know the identity of the perp. Indications are that the Feds set up a sting operation that got insanely out of hand. OKC judges were ordered not to come to work the day of the bombing before the bombing and according to witnesses there wasn't a single agent in the ATF office when the bomb went off. McVeigh was kept in virtual isolation the entire time and nobody in the media seemed interested in investigating what the hell really happened.

 

[gipper]

McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who was tried, convicted and executed in about seven years. The Feds chose not to investigate the political affiliation of the radical network McVeigh belonged to nor did they search for John Doe #1 or #2. They were content to arrest McVeigh associates who were not connected to the actual bombing. McVeigh was captured in record time after the bombing. The Feds aren't that good ...unless they know the identity of the perp. Indications are that the Feds set up a sting operation that got insanely out of hand. OKC judges were ordered not to come to work the day of the bombing before the bombing and according to witnesses there wasn't a single agent in the ATF office when the bomb went off. McVeigh was kept in virtual isolation the entire time and nobody in the media seemed interested in investigating what the hell really happened.

Yes and all that would seem to indicate a government conspiracy and cover up. And yet, millions of Americans continue to believe whatever the government and the state run media tell them.

CRAZY!!!