As we get ready to, yet again, elect another leader ... can we ask the question?

[candycorn]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

Yeah..okay.

 

[fncceo]

So how do businesses and factories function?

A relationship between workers and owners in a business or factory is a civil one. It is, above all else, voluntary. No one (with the exception of slaves or indentured servants) takes a job involuntarily. You may not like what you do for a living, but you have the choice at any time to leave.

When the state is your leader, you have no choice. Abide by the rules of the state or they are authorized to use force. Levels of force up to and including deadly force.

My boss may say he wants to kill me (and rightfully so) but, he can't do it. The state, on the other hand, may do so with impunity.

 

[Dragonlady]

Do free, intelligent people, even need to be led at all?

Are we capable of envisioning a way for people to enjoy the benefits of a free society without having a single leader or group of leaders in control of every aspect of our lives?

This idea that leaders are "in control of every aspect of our lives" is just flat out bullshit", and the type of inflammatory rhetoric that conservatives are fond of using to frighten people into voting for "freedom".

Somebody needs to keep things running, and tend to the infrastructure. Manage the civil service, adminster the social welfare programs. What in normal countries we call "sound governance". Our leaders don't go around touting their greatness or what a good job they're doing sounding like a used car salesman selling a broken down jalopy. We require our leaders to keep the lights turned on, the water running, the health care system properly financed and funded, infrastructure up to date, and ensure our legal codes are current and up to date for life in the 21st Century.

We would never accept a self-absorbed blowhard like Trump, because he acts that America is beholden to HIM, not the other way around. Even the title "President", from "preside", syn. "rule over" verus Prime Minister, as in minister to or serve. The PM is our top public servant. It's an entirely different view of government and it's role. You chose someone to rule over you. We chose someone to serve us.

Donald Trump made a lot noise about stopping sales of American PPE to foreign governments and said he had blocked a sale of millions of N95 masks to Canada in early April. He announced this at a big press conference as American health care workers marched in the streets in garbage bags begging for PPE while the virus raged through New York. He would get those masks to them. At his press conference the next day (Friday), Trudeau was asked about this by a panicked Canadian media. Trudeau calmly said our hospitals have plenty of PPE. These masks were a "re-stocking order" to cover future needs and unlike US hospitals, our hospitals were well supplied with everything our health workers needed to keep them safe This was the third big order for masks the government had placed since January.

Trudeau also, said not to worry, they were on the phone with Washington and he felt confident that they would work everything out They were also looking at alternative suppliers. On Monday Trudeau walked to the microphone, and quietly said that things had been sorted with Washington. The 3M masks had been shipped and were on the way to Canada. Now crowing about winning. No bragging about how how he was the man, and he took it to Trump. No demanding the Canadian people thank him for doing it. Just "It's an inconvenience, not a problem, and here's why. Don't worry, I'll fix it or find other options", and one business day later "It's sorted. The masks are on the way". That's real leadership. Donald Trump - he never told the American people what happened after he banned the shipment. Posters here still bring this up as a "win" for Trump.

Leaders are employees of the people and as such, they work for you, and you should never let them forget it. Canadians will vote out any politician who does, and destroy the party of any PM who does. Yes Brian Mulroney, I'm talking about you, you arrogant prick. Mulroney's great sin and the one that lead to his and his party's destruction - NAFTA and the 10% goods and services tax that came with it.

Americans let their politicians walk all over them, especially the Republicans who lie, cheat, steal, and you keep re-electing them. They're not in it for you. They're in it for the rich guys who make the big donations to keep them in office. Republicans have been on a 40 year propaganda blitz to convince you that Democrats are the problem yet it's always the Republicans caught cheating in elections, caught stealing from the taxpayers, caught committing felonies.

 

[Dragonlady]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

It would not increase your property values. And no, you can't just go to court to prove it, unless you're rich. Court cases and lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and that money is a sunk cost. It comes off the your settlement. You could easily spend $50,000 and spend two years on the litigation. Hardly worth the effort. If the party you've sued goes broke in the interim because of your law suit, there won't be a settlement and you'll pay your lawyer out of your own pocket.

People who say "you can always sue" have never been to court or sued anybody. They think the loser pays all of the winners legal fees. Court orders cover the winner's legal "costs" - the cost of filing suit in the court, the cost of serving the plaintiff, and other out of pocket expenses, but not legal fees on a solicitor and client basis. That comes off of the top of the settlement. Bill Clinton settled the Paula Jones law suit after four years, for $750,000. Her lawyers got $600,000 of it. While it might seem like Jones made out Ok, with $150,000 that works out to less than $40,000 per year. She could have gotten a secretarial job and made more money.

And without a government, who is going to administer the courts, or write the laws under which you sue, or under which criminals are charged?

 

[progressive hunter]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

It would not increase your property values. And no, you can't just go to court to prove it, unless you're rich. Court cases and lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and that money is a sunk cost. It comes off the your settlement. You could easily spend $50,000 and spend two years on the litigation. Hardly worth the effort. If the party you've sued goes broke in the interim because of your law suit, there won't be a settlement and you'll pay your lawyer out of your own pocket.

People who say "you can always sue" have never been to court or sued anybody. They think the loser pays all of the winners legal fees. Court orders cover the winner's legal "costs" - the cost of filing suit in the court, the cost of serving the plaintiff, and other out of pocket expenses, but not legal fees on a solicitor and client basis. That comes off of the top of the settlement. Bill Clinton settled the Paula Jones law suit after four years, for $750,000. Her lawyers got $600,000 of it. While it might seem like Jones made out Ok, with $150,000 that works out to less than $40,000 per year. She could have gotten a secretarial job and made more money.

And without a government, who is going to administer the courts, or write the laws under which you sue, or under which criminals are charged?

youre not american so how would you know how it works here,,,

mind your own business

 

[candycorn]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

It would not increase your property values. And no, you can't just go to court to prove it, unless you're rich. Court cases and lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and that money is a sunk cost. It comes off the your settlement. You could easily spend $50,000 and spend two years on the litigation. Hardly worth the effort. If the party you've sued goes broke in the interim because of your law suit, there won't be a settlement and you'll pay your lawyer out of your own pocket.

People who say "you can always sue" have never been to court or sued anybody. They think the loser pays all of the winners legal fees. Court orders cover the winner's legal "costs" - the cost of filing suit in the court, the cost of serving the plaintiff, and other out of pocket expenses, but not legal fees on a solicitor and client basis. That comes off of the top of the settlement. Bill Clinton settled the Paula Jones law suit after four years, for $750,000. Her lawyers got $600,000 of it. While it might seem like Jones made out Ok, with $150,000 that works out to less than $40,000 per year. She could have gotten a secretarial job and made more money.

And without a government, who is going to administer the courts, or write the laws under which you sue, or under which criminals are charged?

That is why I just said "okay"...he's not being intellectually honest in his own thread.

 

[Dragonlady]

So how do businesses and factories function?

A relationship between workers and owners in a business or factory is a civil one. It is, above all else, voluntary. No one (with the exception of slaves or indentured servants) takes a job involuntarily. You may not like what you do for a living, but you have the choice at any time to leave.

When the state is your leader, you have no choice. Abide by the rules of the state or they are authorized to use force. Levels of force up to and including deadly force.

My boss may say he wants to kill me (and rightfully so) but, he can't do it. The state, on the other hand, may do so with impunity.

So what if you work in this factory and the owner doesn't pay you. What recourse do you have? All of this libertarian bullshit assumes that everyone is honest and will do the right thing, and that everyone will tradely fairly and honestly with everyone else.

At will employment gives all power to the owner and none to the worker. You said it yourself, you don't like it leave. Your boss wants you to work unsafe conditions, leave. Walmart comes in and sets up shop, hires away all of your workers with higher wages and benefits, undercuts your prices and drives you and all of the rest of the mom and pop retailers, out of business. Then they cut wages and raise prices. There's nowhere else left to work. That's how the Walton's got rich. Their size and capital allowed them to do that.

Expecting people with wealth and power to treat lesser beings fairly or ethically, is ridiculous. Labour laws exist because the Robber Barons locked their workers into unsafe factories and hundreds died in fires, or got chewed up the machinery and their bosses did nothing.

 

[fncceo]

inflammatory rhetoric that conservatives are fond of using to frighten people into voting for "freedom".

I'm intrigued by the concept that people would need to be frightened into voting for freedom. My experience is that freedom is something most intelligent people seek.

 

[fncceo]

So what if you work in this factory and the owner doesn't pay you.

Why would you voluntarily work for a person who doesn't pay you?

I don't assume everyone in society is honest. I do assume most people in society are smart enough to manage their own affairs.

But, to answer your question, if you aren't paid for your work, you can sue for the debt. Every jurisdiction in America has a small-claims court where filing fees are minimal and there is no need to hire a litigator to represent you.

 

[fncceo]

drives you and all of the rest of the mom and pop retailers, out of business.

Mom and pop retailers don't give benefits to employees (who are often their own relatives). They typically don't pay overtime or give sick leave.

 

[Dragonlady]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

It would not increase your property values. And no, you can't just go to court to prove it, unless you're rich. Court cases and lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and that money is a sunk cost. It comes off the your settlement. You could easily spend $50,000 and spend two years on the litigation. Hardly worth the effort. If the party you've sued goes broke in the interim because of your law suit, there won't be a settlement and you'll pay your lawyer out of your own pocket.

People who say "you can always sue" have never been to court or sued anybody. They think the loser pays all of the winners legal fees. Court orders cover the winner's legal "costs" - the cost of filing suit in the court, the cost of serving the plaintiff, and other out of pocket expenses, but not legal fees on a solicitor and client basis. That comes off of the top of the settlement. Bill Clinton settled the Paula Jones law suit after four years, for $750,000. Her lawyers got $600,000 of it. While it might seem like Jones made out Ok, with $150,000 that works out to less than $40,000 per year. She could have gotten a secretarial job and made more money.

And without a government, who is going to administer the courts, or write the laws under which you sue, or under which criminals are charged?

youre not american so how would you know how it works here,,,

mind your own business

Unlike you, I'm not ignorant of how people live in other countries, and I often travel to the USA. One of my best friends lives in Toronto and works for a company in Los Angeles. My niece lives there Several relatives are snowbird. I have friends within a worldwide community. We're always asking one another questions about the countries we live in.

If you weren't an arrogant ass who thinks you know it all, you would realize that every first world nation in the world is doing better than you. You nation has money, but it's all held by the wealthy and the big corporations. The people are hurting. We don't have that problem either. We all have wages of $15 per hour, and none of our companies are laying off because of it. Unemployment isn't rising.

The USA is the outlier first world nation. The only first world nation where the life expectancy is declining, workers don't all have paid vacations, maternity leave, or univerisal health care. You schools and health care are the most expensive in the world, but nowhere near the best. The only country in the first world that hasn't effectively dealt with covid.

Given the human rights abuses against minorities, the violence against immigrants, and the attempts by Captain Covid to **** with your elections, damn skippy it's our business. When the world took down Hitler, they said "never again". What Donald Trump is doing on the border - forced sterlizations, family separations. Sending kids under 12 back to their home countries and leaving them at the airport to find their way home, meets every definition of "war crimes". Even your own government's report called it "torture". Armed terrorists being incited by your criminal President.

The world is watching, horrified, and as a friend said today, you can't look away. Donald Trump destroys America is the best miniseries on TV right now and everyone in the world is watching. Quite honestly, why are you letting this happen?

 

[eagle1462010]

What if I wanted to open up a nudist colony across from your 3 year old daughter's bedroom window?

It's my right to put up curtains.

True...
But it would affect your property values. Who do you see about that?

It might increase them, if someone with voyeuristic tendencies is looking to buy. But, either way, it's up to me to prove that to a civil court. If, I could prove, and quantify them, to a civil court, I might win a civil judgement.

Either way, the nudity on private property isn't my concern.

It would not increase your property values. And no, you can't just go to court to prove it, unless you're rich. Court cases and lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and that money is a sunk cost. It comes off the your settlement. You could easily spend $50,000 and spend two years on the litigation. Hardly worth the effort. If the party you've sued goes broke in the interim because of your law suit, there won't be a settlement and you'll pay your lawyer out of your own pocket.

People who say "you can always sue" have never been to court or sued anybody. They think the loser pays all of the winners legal fees. Court orders cover the winner's legal "costs" - the cost of filing suit in the court, the cost of serving the plaintiff, and other out of pocket expenses, but not legal fees on a solicitor and client basis. That comes off of the top of the settlement. Bill Clinton settled the Paula Jones law suit after four years, for $750,000. Her lawyers got $600,000 of it. While it might seem like Jones made out Ok, with $150,000 that works out to less than $40,000 per year. She could have gotten a secretarial job and made more money.

And without a government, who is going to administer the courts, or write the laws under which you sue, or under which criminals are charged?

youre not american so how would you know how it works here,,,

mind your own business

Unlike you, I'm not ignorant of how people live in other countries, and I often travel to the USA. One of my best friends lives in Toronto and works for a company in Los Angeles. My niece lives there Several relatives are snowbird. I have friends within a worldwide community. We're always asking one another questions about the countries we live in.

If you weren't an arrogant ass who thinks you know it all, you would realize that every first world nation in the world is doing better than you. You nation has money, but it's all held by the wealthy and the big corporations. The people are hurting. We don't have that problem either. We all have wages of $15 per hour, and none of our companies are laying off because of it. Unemployment isn't rising.

The USA is the outlier first world nation. The only first world nation where the life expectancy is declining, workers don't all have paid vacations, maternity leave, or univerisal health care. You schools and health care are the most expensive in the world, but nowhere near the best. The only country in the first world that hasn't effectively dealt with covid.

Given the human rights abuses against minorities, the violence against immigrants, and the attempts by Captain Covid to **** with your elections, damn skippy it's our business. When the world took down Hitler, they said "never again". What Donald Trump is doing on the border - forced sterlizations, family separations. Sending kids under 12 back to their home countries and leaving them at the airport to find their way home, meets every definition of "war crimes". Even your own government's report called it "torture". Armed terrorists being incited by your criminal President.

The world is watching, horrified, and as a friend said today, you can't look away. Donald Trump destroys America is the best miniseries on TV right now and everyone in the world is watching. Quite honestly, why are you letting this happen?

**** off...........this is our country and if we want your advice we will ask for it...........NOT.

 

[fncceo]

Unlike you, I'm not ignorant of how people live in other countries,

I have lived and worked all over the world. I returned to America because of all the places I've experienced, the US is my home by birth and by choice.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Rights" are a concept people have based upon thought. Words are the same, so laws and "rights" share a fundamental condition. They are expressions of aspiration and are unprovable when it comes to whether or not they are part of "objective reality". Thus, what people believe in is what is. Systems work when people believe in them and fall apart when that faith dissolves. That is why a society where people functioned well without a ruling hierarchy is conceivable. It is also why it is unlikely, as the history and education of populations does not foster such a thing.

 

[cnm]

Right come first. Laws are derived from rights, not vice versa.

Hilarity. I hadn't realised it was the blacks' right to be enslaved that led to that condition.

 

[cnm]

I have lived and worked all over the world.

What parts of the Anglo-sphere have you experienced?

 

[fncceo]

I have lived and worked all over the world.

What parts of the Anglo-sphere have you experienced?

India, Korea, Japan, Singapore, Belgium, and Australia.

 

[cnm]

Um, Oz, the rest aren't part of the Anglo-sphere which I'd define as the five eyes nations plus Ireland, maybe. I don't think I'd want to live in any of those listed places either but it's not really 'all over'. Have you lived in Scandinavia?

 

[fncceo]

Um, Oz, the rest aren't part of the Anglo-sphere.

Now that you chaps have tossed your empire into History's skip, there isn't much of an Anglo-sphere left. The sun sets pretty quickly on the British Empire.

But, Scandinavia was never part of Anglo-sphere. It's more accurate to say that since 1066, England is part of the Scandinavian- sphere.

 

[my2¢]

The premise reminds me of those science fiction movies where the central world authority is placed in a computer.

Many rights are self evident without any need to administrate. However, there also are a good many where it is difficult to define where one person's right ends and another's begins. Additionally there needs to be decisions made on how to allocate the resources of the country for the common good if we wish to maintain a military, build roads; and set policies in regards to foreign trade, treaties, regulation of food and medical standards, maintain agencies such as the Federal Aviation Administration, etc.