Are Libertarians Closet Anarchists?

[Madeline]

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

If you grow a pot plant in your house, and smoke a joint of its bud, no one else is affected by it.

Millions of Americans disagree with you Paulie. I'm not one of them, but lemme ask you, what if I grow dope in my veggie garden? If I grow an acre of it? If I grow it on land next to a day care center? If I open a farm stand to sell my dope by the side of the road?

At what point (if any) would my dope growing impinge on my neighbor's right to enjoy their property?

 

[Madeline]

Lemme pose a hypothetical, Si. I own my home and so does my neighbor next door. The lots are fairly small. I have asthma but I love gardening and being outside. My neighbor has built a fire pit and installed a large outdoor pizza oven that burns wood.

I want her to stop burning wood in her yard, as I cannot breathe when she does unless I am inside.

Who's liberty gets protected?

You see, in my view, no one has any rights they can exercise that do not impinge on the rights of others. We are forced to make value judgments -- your free speech is more valuable than my right not to be offended -- because there is no other option.

What say you?

Since your neighbor's fire pit is affecting the air in your property then you certainly have a case against your neighbor.

What if my neighbor spent $10,000 to improve her back yard? Do I have the right to prevent her from enjoying the wood burning activities she paid for?

 

[Oscar Wao]

Narco-libertarianism is the first cousin to anarchism and second cousin to Bolshevism. Their views are impractical and lead to some absurd conclusions. They are based on romantic notions of human beings going back to Rousseau that have been disproven time and again.

People, there is no such thing as a "narco" libertarian. This is just Rabbi trying to sound like the cute six-year-old that wants to sound grown up at the Thanksgiving dinner table.

 

[Paulie]

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

If you grow a pot plant in your house, and smoke a joint of its bud, no one else is affected by it.

Millions of Americans disagree with you Paulie. I'm not one of them, but lemme ask you, what if I grow dope in my veggie garden? If I grow an acre of it? If I grow it on land next to a day care center? If I open a farm stand to sell my dope by the side of the road?

At what point (if any) would my dope growing impinge on my neighbor's right to enjoy their property?

I said IN YOUR HOUSE.

In the private confines of your own house where you, and only you, know of its existence.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

If you grow a pot plant in your house, and smoke a joint of its bud, no one else is affected by it.

Millions of Americans disagree with you Paulie. I'm not one of them, but lemme ask you, what if I grow dope in my veggie garden? If I grow an acre of it? If I grow it on land next to a day care center? If I open a farm stand to sell my dope by the side of the road?

At what point (if any) would my dope growing impinge on my neighbor's right to enjoy their property?

Why would growing dope in your own garden affect your neighbor?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Lemme pose a hypothetical, Si. I own my home and so does my neighbor next door. The lots are fairly small. I have asthma but I love gardening and being outside. My neighbor has built a fire pit and installed a large outdoor pizza oven that burns wood.

I want her to stop burning wood in her yard, as I cannot breathe when she does unless I am inside.

Who's liberty gets protected?

You see, in my view, no one has any rights they can exercise that do not impinge on the rights of others. We are forced to make value judgments -- your free speech is more valuable than my right not to be offended -- because there is no other option.

What say you?

Since your neighbor's fire pit is affecting the air in your property then you certainly have a case against your neighbor.

What if my neighbor spent $10,000 to improve her back yard? Do I have the right to prevent her from enjoying the wood burning activities she paid for?

If her activities are infringing on your property rights then yes.

 

[Paulie]

If you grow a pot plant in your house, and smoke a joint of its bud, no one else is affected by it.

Millions of Americans disagree with you Paulie. I'm not one of them, but lemme ask you, what if I grow dope in my veggie garden? If I grow an acre of it? If I grow it on land next to a day care center? If I open a farm stand to sell my dope by the side of the road?

At what point (if any) would my dope growing impinge on my neighbor's right to enjoy their property?

Why would growing dope in your own garden affect your neighbor?

That's ALMOST a situation where I can understand why someone might feel like they're being negatively affected. Say, if they have children, and they don't want their children possibly catching sight of pot plants growing next door.

That's why I specifically said in your house when I used my example.

 

[Paulie]

Of course, if it were legal, then the neighbor wouldn't really have a leg to stand on.

 

[Madeline]

Since your neighbor's fire pit is affecting the air in your property then you certainly have a case against your neighbor.

What if my neighbor spent $10,000 to improve her back yard? Do I have the right to prevent her from enjoying the wood burning activities she paid for?

If her activities are infringing on your property rights then yes.

She did not know I had asthma, or I bought after she did. Either way, I want her to stop doing something on her land she has been used to doing and spent a great deal of money to do.

Why are my rights superior? Can't she respond "just stay indoors when I have a fire going"?

 

[Madeline]

Of course, if it were legal, then the neighbor wouldn't really have a leg to stand on.

Mebbe so...after all, if I grew zucchini rather than dope, be hard to see how I'd be affecting anyone else. But suppose I compost and will not keep the compost pile sanitary? Or my street side farm stand draws 100 customers a day? Or I use chemical fertilizers that run off into your koi pond and kill your fish?

We dun live in bubbles. Our acts affects other people. All we can ever hope to do is make reasoned determinations about whose rights come first -- and for that, we need government.

 

[Paulie]

Of course, if it were legal, then the neighbor wouldn't really have a leg to stand on.

Mebbe so...after all, if I grew zucchini rather than dope, be hard to see how I'd be affecting anyone else. But suppose I compost and will not keep the compost pile sanitary? Or my street side farm stand draws 100 customers a day? Or I use chemical fertilizers that run off into your koi pond and kill your fish?

We dun live in bubbles. Our acts affects other people. All we can ever hope to do is make reasoned determinations about whose rights come first -- and for that, we need government.

I see you didn't respond to the particular about growing and smoking the weed inside your own home.

I don't really understand some of your other examples. If your fertilizer is running into your neighbor's pond and killing their fish, then you are obviously affecting them negatively. I don't get how that plays any part in your point.

We're only speaking specifically about actions that have no affect whatsoever on anyone else. You say there are none, and we beg to differ. I've shown you a few already.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What if my neighbor spent $10,000 to improve her back yard? Do I have the right to prevent her from enjoying the wood burning activities she paid for?

If her activities are infringing on your property rights then yes.

She did not know I had asthma, or I bought after she did. Either way, I want her to stop doing something on her land she has been used to doing and spent a great deal of money to do.

Why are my rights superior? Can't she respond "just stay indoors when I have a fire going"?

Because you're on your property and her activities are negatively affecting you.

 

[Madeline]

If her activities are infringing on your property rights then yes.

She did not know I had asthma, or I bought after she did. Either way, I want her to stop doing something on her land she has been used to doing and spent a great deal of money to do.

Why are my rights superior? Can't she respond "just stay indoors when I have a fire going"?

Because you're on your property and her activities are negatively affecting you.

That's enough? Can she make me get rid of my dog because it barks when it's outside and she doesn't like that?

The world you describe would have everyone up one another's butts, Kevin. If there is a government, there can be such things as zoning ordinances. One of us must lose, the other will win....but at least it isn't because we fought it out in the street like thugs.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

She did not know I had asthma, or I bought after she did. Either way, I want her to stop doing something on her land she has been used to doing and spent a great deal of money to do.

Why are my rights superior? Can't she respond "just stay indoors when I have a fire going"?

Because you're on your property and her activities are negatively affecting you.

That's enough? Can she make me get rid of my dog because it barks when it's outside and she doesn't like that?

The world you describe would have everyone up one another's butts, Kevin. If there is a government, there can be such things as zoning ordinances. One of us must lose, the other will win....but at least it isn't because we fought it out in the street like thugs.

I don't know that she could make you get rid of it, but yes she'd have a case against you.

Fight out in the streets? Who said anything about that?

 

[Paulie]

She did not know I had asthma, or I bought after she did. Either way, I want her to stop doing something on her land she has been used to doing and spent a great deal of money to do.

Why are my rights superior? Can't she respond "just stay indoors when I have a fire going"?

Because you're on your property and her activities are negatively affecting you.

That's enough? Can she make me get rid of my dog because it barks when it's outside and she doesn't like that?

The world you describe would have everyone up one another's butts, Kevin. If there is a government, there can be such things as zoning ordinances. One of us must lose, the other will win....but at least it isn't because we fought it out in the street like thugs.

She could certainly file a noise ordinance claim if you didn't make a reasonable attempt to quiet the dog.

 

[Madeline]

Of course, if it were legal, then the neighbor wouldn't really have a leg to stand on.

Mebbe so...after all, if I grew zucchini rather than dope, be hard to see how I'd be affecting anyone else. But suppose I compost and will not keep the compost pile sanitary? Or my street side farm stand draws 100 customers a day? Or I use chemical fertilizers that run off into your koi pond and kill your fish?

We dun live in bubbles. Our acts affects other people. All we can ever hope to do is make reasoned determinations about whose rights come first -- and for that, we need government.

I see you didn't respond to the particular about growing and smoking the weed inside your own home.

I don't really understand some of your other examples. If your fertilizer is running into your neighbor's pond and killing their fish, then you are obviously affecting them negatively. I don't get how that plays any part in your point.

We're only speaking specifically about actions that have no affect whatsoever on anyone else. You say there are none, and we beg to differ. I've shown you a few already.

O, so sorry...I became confused. Yes, in general I'd agree what goes on in your home is none of my business. However, if in your home, you are abusing an animal, or selling dope to my child, or building a bomb.....then I'd make exceptions.

Would you? And before you answer Paulie -- if the answer is "yes" then how do we carry out this interest we have in one another's private lives without government?

 

[Paulie]

Mebbe so...after all, if I grew zucchini rather than dope, be hard to see how I'd be affecting anyone else. But suppose I compost and will not keep the compost pile sanitary? Or my street side farm stand draws 100 customers a day? Or I use chemical fertilizers that run off into your koi pond and kill your fish?

We dun live in bubbles. Our acts affects other people. All we can ever hope to do is make reasoned determinations about whose rights come first -- and for that, we need government.

I see you didn't respond to the particular about growing and smoking the weed inside your own home.

I don't really understand some of your other examples. If your fertilizer is running into your neighbor's pond and killing their fish, then you are obviously affecting them negatively. I don't get how that plays any part in your point.

We're only speaking specifically about actions that have no affect whatsoever on anyone else. You say there are none, and we beg to differ. I've shown you a few already.

O, so sorry...I became confused. Yes, in general I'd agree what goes on in your home is none of my business. However, if in your home, you are abusing an animal, or selling dope to my child, or building a bomb.....then I'd make exceptions.

Would you? And before you answer Paulie -- if the answer is "yes" then how do we carry out this interest we have in one another's private lives without government?

You are REALLY missing the point here madeline.

I'm not trying to say that just because you are doing ANYTHING in your own home, it should be legal.

If you are abusing an animal, selling dope to a minor, or building a bomb, you are affecting someone else.

If you are smoking a joint, you aren't affecting anyone else.

Please tell me you understand now.

 

[Madeline]

I do! As a matter of fact I have a whole list of things I would decriminalize, Paulie. All drugs, period. Reasonable restrictions on time place and manner, age, etc. but no outright bans. Any sexual act between adults, period. (You'd be astounded at how huge the class of illegal sexual activities still is, especially if the acts involve any sort of toy or object).

No more nanny laws....the endless Mom-isms about children in the front seat of chairs, etc. I'd keep some environmental laws; I think it's best if asbestos is safely disposed of and lead paint is carefully removed.

We're prolly not very far apart politically...I am just rather surprised at people who think we don't need a national currency, etc.

 

[Paulie]

I do! As a matter of fact I have a whole list of things I would decriminalize, Paulie. All drugs, period. Reasonable restrictions on time place and manner, age, etc. but no outright bans. Any sexual act between adults, period. (You'd be astounded at how huge the class of illegal sexual activities still is, especially if the acts involve any sort of toy or object).

No more nanny laws....the endless Mom-isms about children in the front seat of chairs, etc. I'd keep some environmental laws; I think it's best if asbestos is safely disposed of and lead paint is carefully removed.

We're prolly not very far apart politically...I am just rather surprised at people who think we don't need a national currency, etc.

I don't necessarily think we don't need a national currency, I just don't approve of the monopoly. There's no reason why competing currencies can't be allowed.

If the government thinks theirs is so superior, then put it up against a competitor.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

We've argued over the house left to burn because the homeowner failed to pay an optional fee for fire protection, and many "Libertarians'" or conservatives have argued vehemently against using the taxing power of government to assure fire protection for every structure.

Fine, fine fine....but it left me wondering, what do Libertarians see as essential government services?

I'm sure there's no one universally-accepted Libertarian hymnal, but I have read so often on USMB that "education is never mentioned in the constitution" and "the general welfare clause does not support Obamacare", etc. I am fairly certain most Libertarians are opposed to any social program whatsoever. Am I correct in this?

What about national defense? Immigration and border protection?

How about currency, banking regulation etc.? Any role for government in this vein considered to be essential by Libertarians?

What about criminal law and justice? Would a Libertarian support anti-drug or anti-abortion laws? Anti-suicide laws? Anti-murder laws?

We could just close all government offices and declare the US is now a ginormous commune. Does that appeal to a Libertarian?

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

Libertarians beleive that "government that governs least governs best"

As far as your questions go (i could be considered libertairian which is why i'm offering answers to you.

What do libertarians see as essential government services? Federal government: Defense of the nation from foreign threats and dealings with foreign powers. State/Local Governmet: Everything else.

most Libertarians are opposed to any social program whatsoever. Am I correct in this? You are correct on the federal level. However, if a local community deems that their local government should be involved in a social program then a libertarian would be fine with it as long as its voted on by the people and not made a federal program as the constitution limits federal government leaving almost all power in the hands of the states/locals.

What about national defense? Immigration and border protection? Immigration and border protection are part of national defense and fall under federal jurisdiction. Libertarians support the federal government providing the national defense as it is the fed's constitutionally defined power to do so.

How about currency, banking regulation etc.? Any role for government in this vein considered to be essential by Libertarians? Government regulations are what led to the housing market crash. Policies that forced banks to give out loans to high risk individuals under the guise of equal lending act. There is a government role for regulations in business and the federal government can regulate interstate commerce. However this does not give the federal government the power to bail out companies and banks with tax money.

What about criminal law and justice? Would a Libertarian support anti-drug or anti-abortion laws? Anti-suicide laws? Anti-murder laws? Libertarians are live and let live people. We dont support ANY laws in regards to abortion, its not our business if you want one or not. We dont support the war on drugs, its an individual's choice to use drugs or not. We dont support anti or pro suicide laws, again its not the governments role to be involved in this.

Anti-murder laws are a different story. Your first 3 things drugs, abortion, suicide are all decisions that affect the individual making them while murder affects someone else. Murder laws are the jurisdiction of state courts and individual states have the right to decide what suitable punishments are for being proved of murder.

We could just close all government offices and declare the US is now a ginormous commune. Does that appeal to a Libertarian? I'm not sure how you would get this idea from libertarian values. No this doesn't appeal to a libertarian. What does appeal is the elimination of federal programs such as the federal education beurocracy leaving it up to the towns and the PTAs to decide what education is essential and important for their own local children.

Just how close is a libertarian to an anarchist? Libertarians are as close to anarchists as they can possibly be while still understanding the government does need to have some role. Libertarians want the minimal government necessary for any situation.

Again, as my favorite libertarian Thomas Paine said, "That government is best which governs least" -Thomas Paine