Are Libertarians Closet Anarchists?

[Madeline]

I'm a staunch conservative and a libertarian when it comes to the federal government and how it should be run. State governments I'm not as fiscally tough on. Personally I think the federal government's only job should be maintaining federal roads, border security, foreign relations, making sure states keep up with standards in education, and military upkeep.

All this other shit is worthless and the Feds have proven that they just can't handle it all. Policing the world, fighting a "drug war", all these federal entitlement programs, the feds are too broken to handle that stuff and are just completely incompetent because they've become over-bloated and too large.

Very interesting, uptownlivin. What about commerce? IYO, does the federal government have any role to play in such things as food safety? Restrictions on prescription drug use?

 

[Madeline]

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

There are some libertarians who are anarchists, but most of us are minarchists. We believe in individual liberty and empowerment, with the government's primary role being protection of those liberties and maintaining a civil society. Iow, a nation of laws, and not men.

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

 

[Si modo]

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

There are some libertarians who are anarchists, but most of us are minarchists. We believe in individual liberty and empowerment, with the government's primary role being protection of those liberties and maintaining a civil society. Iow, a nation of laws, and not men.

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

You apparently think libertarians don't want to follow the Constitution.

You're being absurd.

Really.

 

[Madeline]

Lemme pose a hypothetical, Si. I own my home and so does my neighbor next door. The lots are fairly small. I have asthma but I love gardening and being outside. My neighbor has built a fire pit and installed a large outdoor pizza oven that burns wood.

I want her to stop burning wood in her yard, as I cannot breathe when she does unless I am inside.

Who's liberty gets protected?

You see, in my view, no one has any rights they can exercise that do not impinge on the rights of others. We are forced to make value judgments -- your free speech is more valuable than my right not to be offended -- because there is no other option.

What say you?

 

[Si modo]

Lemme pose a hypothetical, Si. I own my home and so does my neighbor next door. The lots are fairly small. I have asthma but I love gardening and being outside. My neighbor has built a fire pit and installed a large outdoor pizza oven that burns wood.

I want her to stop burning wood in her yard, as I cannot breathe when she does unless I am inside.

Who's liberty gets protected?

You see, in my view, no one has any rights they can exercise that do not impinge on the rights of others. We are forced to make value judgments -- your free speech is more valuable than my right not to be offended -- because there is no other option.

What say you?

Let me know where your right not to be offended is in the Constitution. Thanks.

 

[Paulie]

I'm a staunch conservative and a libertarian when it comes to the federal government and how it should be run. State governments I'm not as fiscally tough on. Personally I think the federal government's only job should be maintaining federal roads, border security, foreign relations, making sure states keep up with standards in education, and military upkeep.

All this other shit is worthless and the Feds have proven that they just can't handle it all. Policing the world, fighting a "drug war", all these federal entitlement programs, the feds are too broken to handle that stuff and are just completely incompetent because they've become over-bloated and too large.

Education is where you and I would part ways there.

I don't see how some bureaucrat in some office in DC can adequately realize the educational needs of a specific town thousands of miles away from him, considering that each individual town or community has differing needs.

Centralizing education has been a failure.

 

[Si modo]

I'm a staunch conservative and a libertarian when it comes to the federal government and how it should be run. State governments I'm not as fiscally tough on. Personally I think the federal government's only job should be maintaining federal roads, border security, foreign relations, making sure states keep up with standards in education, and military upkeep.

All this other shit is worthless and the Feds have proven that they just can't handle it all. Policing the world, fighting a "drug war", all these federal entitlement programs, the feds are too broken to handle that stuff and are just completely incompetent because they've become over-bloated and too large.

Education is where you and I would part ways there.

I don't see how some bureaucrat in some office in DC can adequately realize the educational needs of a specific town thousands of miles away from him, considering that each individual town or community has differing needs.

Centralizing education has been a failure.

IMO, that is likely one of the top mistakes our country has ever made.

 

[Paulie]

I'm a staunch conservative and a libertarian when it comes to the federal government and how it should be run. State governments I'm not as fiscally tough on. Personally I think the federal government's only job should be maintaining federal roads, border security, foreign relations, making sure states keep up with standards in education, and military upkeep.

All this other shit is worthless and the Feds have proven that they just can't handle it all. Policing the world, fighting a "drug war", all these federal entitlement programs, the feds are too broken to handle that stuff and are just completely incompetent because they've become over-bloated and too large.

Education is where you and I would part ways there.

I don't see how some bureaucrat in some office in DC can adequately realize the educational needs of a specific town thousands of miles away from him, considering that each individual town or community has differing needs.

Centralizing education has been a failure.

IMO, that is likely one of the top mistakes our country has ever made.

That, coupled with parents abdicating their own roles in their children's education. I suspect a lot of that has to do with the centralization creating a certain amount of apathy though. Government will figure out my child's education for me, I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[Sheldon]

We've argued over the house left to burn because the homeowner failed to pay an optional fee for fire protection, and many "Libertarians'" or conservatives have argued vehemently against using the taxing power of government to assure fire protection for every structure.

Fine, fine fine....but it left me wondering, what do Libertarians see as essential government services?

I'm sure there's no one universally-accepted Libertarian hymnal, but I have read so often on USMB that "education is never mentioned in the constitution" and "the general welfare clause does not support Obamacare", etc. I am fairly certain most Libertarians are opposed to any social program whatsoever. Am I correct in this?

What about national defense? Immigration and border protection?

How about currency, banking regulation etc.? Any role for government in this vein considered to be essential by Libertarians?

What about criminal law and justice? Would a Libertarian support anti-drug or anti-abortion laws? Anti-suicide laws? Anti-murder laws?

We could just close all government offices and declare the US is now a ginormous commune. Does that appeal to a Libertarian?

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

I haven't read through this thread, and I'm not a libertarian or Libertarian.

First, the Libertarian Party ran Bob Barr as their Prez candidate in 2008... in my mind that's when it ceased to be libertarian. It'll be interesting to see who makes it in 2012.

Black-flag anarchists want the abolition of the State. Libertarians want the State decentralized but not completely abolished. I think a core ideal of libertarianism is that governance is more responsive to the needs of its constituents the more local it becomes. A centralized government serving 300 million plus citizens will inherently be wasteful and ineffective in meeting its responsibilities, so its responsibilities should be limited. What limited actually means is a matter of debate even between libertarians.

I think it's ultimately unworkable, like a solidified central authority is unworkable. This nation functions best with a balance between state and federal, and would struggle if tipped too far in either direction.

 

[Paulie]

We've argued over the house left to burn because the homeowner failed to pay an optional fee for fire protection, and many "Libertarians'" or conservatives have argued vehemently against using the taxing power of government to assure fire protection for every structure.

Fine, fine fine....but it left me wondering, what do Libertarians see as essential government services?

I'm sure there's no one universally-accepted Libertarian hymnal, but I have read so often on USMB that "education is never mentioned in the constitution" and "the general welfare clause does not support Obamacare", etc. I am fairly certain most Libertarians are opposed to any social program whatsoever. Am I correct in this?

What about national defense? Immigration and border protection?

How about currency, banking regulation etc.? Any role for government in this vein considered to be essential by Libertarians?

What about criminal law and justice? Would a Libertarian support anti-drug or anti-abortion laws? Anti-suicide laws? Anti-murder laws?

We could just close all government offices and declare the US is now a ginormous commune. Does that appeal to a Libertarian?

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

I haven't read through this thread, and I'm not a libertarian or Libertarian.

First, the Libertarian Party ran Bob Barr as their Prez candidate in 2008... in my mind that's when it ceased to be libertarian. It'll be interesting to see who makes it in 2012.

Black-flag anarchists want the abolition of the State. Libertarians want the State decentralized but not completely abolished. I think a core ideal of libertarianism is that governance is more responsive to the needs of its constituents the more local it becomes. A centralized government serving 300 million plus citizens will inherently be wasteful and ineffective in meeting its responsibilities, so its responsibilities should be limited. What limited actually means is a matter of debate even between libertarians.

I think it's ultimately unworkable, like a solidified central authority is unworkable. This nation functions best with a balance between state and federal, and would struggle if tipped too far in either direction.

Most of it centers on common sense.

Whatever isn't working at the federal level ought to be tried out more locally.

Education is sucking ass federally. Let's allow the community to decide what's best for its own educational needs. Not only is it more efficient, but it forces parents to get involved more like they SHOULD.

 

[johnrocks]

I'm an "old right" conservative who get's called a libertarian and I don't support anarchy, personally, I don't know anyone who does as I see only a few on the internet.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Narco-libertarianism is the first cousin to anarchism and second cousin to Bolshevism. Their views are impractical and lead to some absurd conclusions. They are based on romantic notions of human beings going back to Rousseau that have been disproven time and again.

Yes, free market capitalists are "second cousins" to communists. Makes perfect sense.

They're not "free market capitalists." That's a lie. How many narco libertarians favor private court systems?

Many of them. Though that tends to be the anarchist wing of the libertarian ideology.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Do you see a role for the federal government in regulating banking/finance? Commerce?

No.

Do you see any need for a national currency? The Federal Reserve System?

No. Why should government have a monopoly on the issuance of currency? And the Fed artificially manipulating interest rates creates the boom and bust cycle.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

There are some libertarians who are anarchists, but most of us are minarchists. We believe in individual liberty and empowerment, with the government's primary role being protection of those liberties and maintaining a civil society. Iow, a nation of laws, and not men.

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Lemme pose a hypothetical, Si. I own my home and so does my neighbor next door. The lots are fairly small. I have asthma but I love gardening and being outside. My neighbor has built a fire pit and installed a large outdoor pizza oven that burns wood.

I want her to stop burning wood in her yard, as I cannot breathe when she does unless I am inside.

Who's liberty gets protected?

You see, in my view, no one has any rights they can exercise that do not impinge on the rights of others. We are forced to make value judgments -- your free speech is more valuable than my right not to be offended -- because there is no other option.

What say you?

Since your neighbor's fire pit is affecting the air in your property then you certainly have a case against your neighbor.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We've argued over the house left to burn because the homeowner failed to pay an optional fee for fire protection, and many "Libertarians'" or conservatives have argued vehemently against using the taxing power of government to assure fire protection for every structure.

Fine, fine fine....but it left me wondering, what do Libertarians see as essential government services?

I'm sure there's no one universally-accepted Libertarian hymnal, but I have read so often on USMB that "education is never mentioned in the constitution" and "the general welfare clause does not support Obamacare", etc. I am fairly certain most Libertarians are opposed to any social program whatsoever. Am I correct in this?

What about national defense? Immigration and border protection?

How about currency, banking regulation etc.? Any role for government in this vein considered to be essential by Libertarians?

What about criminal law and justice? Would a Libertarian support anti-drug or anti-abortion laws? Anti-suicide laws? Anti-murder laws?

We could just close all government offices and declare the US is now a ginormous commune. Does that appeal to a Libertarian?

Just how close is a Libertarian to an anarchist?

I haven't read through this thread, and I'm not a libertarian or Libertarian.

First, the Libertarian Party ran Bob Barr as their Prez candidate in 2008... in my mind that's when it ceased to be libertarian. It'll be interesting to see who makes it in 2012.

Black-flag anarchists want the abolition of the State. Libertarians want the State decentralized but not completely abolished. I think a core ideal of libertarianism is that governance is more responsive to the needs of its constituents the more local it becomes. A centralized government serving 300 million plus citizens will inherently be wasteful and ineffective in meeting its responsibilities, so its responsibilities should be limited. What limited actually means is a matter of debate even between libertarians.

I think it's ultimately unworkable, like a solidified central authority is unworkable. This nation functions best with a balance between state and federal, and would struggle if tipped too far in either direction.

You're more describing the difference between minarchism and anarchism. There are minarchist libertarians and anarchist libertarians. I don't believe there are any anarcho-libertarians on the board, however.

 

[Madeline]

There are some libertarians who are anarchists, but most of us are minarchists. We believe in individual liberty and empowerment, with the government's primary role being protection of those liberties and maintaining a civil society. Iow, a nation of laws, and not men.

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

 

[Paulie]

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

If you masturbate alone in your bedroom, no one else is affected by it.

 

[Paulie]

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

If you grow a pot plant in your house, and smoke a joint of its bud, no one else is affected by it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

When you protect my liberty, don't you necessarially restrict my neighbor's?

No. You can only have the freedom, right, or liberty to that which doesn't impact others.

There is no act I can do that has zero impact on others, Kevin. Even breathing adds to the carbon dixoide load.

And is that a problem?