Are China and America doomed to conflict?

[Tom Paine 1949]

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

If the Red Army marched into West Berlin any time in the 1950s after the USSR had the bomb, there was nothing we could have done. Also, only after the West German economy became much superior to East Germany, when the East Germans really seriously wanted to reunite, when Russia allowed it to do so under Gorbachev, was that reuniting possible. Of course if mainland Chinese are in the midst of a revolution to overthrow the CCP, the situation might be very different. As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification. China just dropped the word “peaceful” from its normal call for “peaceful reunification” across the straight of Taiwan. This is perhaps the first sign that the U.S.-China Cold War may bring sudden disaster to the people of Taiwan.

As for economic strength, the Soviet Union economy never surpassed perhaps 30% of the U.S. economy. China is already our equal. Its naval and air forces will soon be MUCH stronger than the U.S. in the East China (and South China) Sea.

The Soviets knew had they moved into West Berlin, a trip wire would have been crossed resulting in massive retaliation. That tactic worked there, it’s worked in Korea, & would work against China. To combat the Chinese in the South China Sea region, we need to hold over their head the idea of the US recognizing Taiwan as an independent state. That’s the key to fighting the leeches that are communist states. You have to be willing to play ante up. China is increasingly being seen as a pariah especially after they allowed this virus to spread through their incompetence, corruption, & stupidity. We will need to go back to a Cold War footing to rid the world of communism.

Not at all comparable. Truman acted very wisely and prudently in the 1948-49 Berlin airlift. Stalin technically respected the treaty agreements he had signed (which did not guarantee road access to Berlin). Given that the Russians only tested their atomic bombs from late 1949 -1951, Stalin was certainly right in not simply seizing Berlin, which he could have easily done. The U.S. and the USSR had been allies during the war. Stalin allowed the U.S. and Brits and French to enter and share in symbolically taking Berlin, but it was the Red Army that did the fighting. The U.S. had already demobilized by 1948. Berlin was still a wreck from the war, mainly a symbol. Of course Stalin lost this important “propaganda battle.”

The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force if Taiwan (or Hong Kong) was stupid enough to proclaim independence and it appeared that U.S. ships and planes would back them up by landing or anchoring close to the Chinese mainland. That would be a disastrous American military adventure likely to escalate to nuclear war. The U.S. could not “win” such a fight, but might be willing to lose Taiwan as part of a mad campaign to isolate and quarantine China. I personally don’t believe the U.S., under Pompeo and Trump, are likely to purposefully take matters that far. However, China’s leadership could move on Taiwan earlier than expected if it feels it is being “decoupled,” sanctioned and humiliated by the West.

 

[KGB]

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

If the Red Army marched into West Berlin any time in the 1950s after the USSR had the bomb, there was nothing we could have done. Also, only after the West German economy became much superior to East Germany, when the East Germans really seriously wanted to reunite, when Russia allowed it to do so under Gorbachev, was that reuniting possible. Of course if mainland Chinese are in the midst of a revolution to overthrow the CCP, the situation might be very different. As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification. China just dropped the word “peaceful” from its normal call for “peaceful reunification” across the straight of Taiwan. This is perhaps the first sign that the U.S.-China Cold War may bring sudden disaster to the people of Taiwan.

As for economic strength, the Soviet Union economy never surpassed perhaps 30% of the U.S. economy. China is already our equal. Its naval and air forces will soon be MUCH stronger than the U.S. in the East China (and South China) Sea.

The Soviets knew had they moved into West Berlin, a trip wire would have been crossed resulting in massive retaliation. That tactic worked there, it’s worked in Korea, & would work against China. To combat the Chinese in the South China Sea region, we need to hold over their head the idea of the US recognizing Taiwan as an independent state. That’s the key to fighting the leeches that are communist states. You have to be willing to play ante up. China is increasingly being seen as a pariah especially after they allowed this virus to spread through their incompetence, corruption, & stupidity. We will need to go back to a Cold War footing to rid the world of communism.

Not at all comparable. Truman acted very wisely and prudently in the 1948-49 Berlin airlift. Stalin technically respected the treaty agreements he had signed (which did not guarantee road access to Berlin). Given that the Russians only tested their atomic bombs from late 1949 -1951, Stalin was certainly right in not simply seizing Berlin, which he could have easily done. The U.S. and the USSR had been allies during the war. Stalin allowed the U.S. and Brits and French to enter and share in symbolically taking Berlin, but it was the Red Army that did the fighting. The U.S. had already demobilized by 1948. Berlin was still a wreck from the war, mainly a symbol. Of course Stalin lost this important “propaganda battle.”

The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force if Taiwan (or Hong Kong) was stupid enough to proclaim independence and it appeared that U.S. ships and planes would back them up by landing or anchoring close to the Chinese mainland. That would be a disastrous American military adventure likely to escalate to nuclear war. The U.S. could not “win” such a fight, but might be willing to lose Taiwan as part of a mad campaign to isolate and quarantine China. I personally don’t believe the U.S., under Pompeo and Trump, are likely to purposefully take matters that far. However, China’s leadership could move on Taiwan earlier than expected if it feels it is being “decoupled,” sanctioned and humiliated by the West.

You have a warped & incorrect sense of history. The Soviets broke all treaty obligations and allied trust by their occupation & subsequent enslavement of Eastern Europe. That isn't hyperbole, that is historical fact. The Iron Curtain was physical evidence as well as the escapees over the years following WW2. The peoples in those countries saw first hand Russian atrocities, resentment which still burns to this day. Ask the Ukrainians & the Poles what they think of Russian intentions. Also, it was sheer luck the Soviets were able to push West. The Germans approached within 40 miles of Moscow, but like past follies, General Winter helped out the Soviets yet again. In addition, while it is true the Soviets bore the brunt of Nazi aggression during the war, without the Normandy landing by the Allies, the Soviets would have been crushed under the Nazi advance. In short, Hitler lost the war the first day he opened up multiple fronts.

It is disingenuous to believe a fight over Taiwan escalates to nuclear war. China did not contemplate the use of nuclear weapons during its border skirmishes with the Soviet Union, so it's difficult to think nukes would enter the picture here as well.

The fact is, China has already lost considerable face with their utter contempt for human rights as demonstrated by crackdowns on the Tibetans, Uyghurs, & the ongoing issues in Hong Kong. The virus outbreak caused by their sheer incompetence & corruption coupled with their criminal Belt & Road merely have shown the world the truest face the regime possesses. It is morally bankrupt and ethically vacant. Only when the last bastions of the excrement known as communism are purged from this world, will the cause for freedom be fully realized.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

“Warped and incorrect sense of history” ... me ???

I should have known better than to try to have a serious discussion about history, about whether “China and the U.S. are doomed to conflict” ... with somebody who uses a picture of the fictional agent “Jack Bauer” as his alter ego. : (

 

[Zorro!]

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

If the Red Army marched into West Berlin any time in the 1950s after the USSR had the bomb, there was nothing we could have done. Also, only after the West German economy became much superior to East Germany, when the East Germans really seriously wanted to reunite, when Russia allowed it to do so under Gorbachev, was that reuniting possible. Of course if mainland Chinese are in the midst of a revolution to overthrow the CCP, the situation might be very different. As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification. China just dropped the word “peaceful” from its normal call for “peaceful reunification” across the straight of Taiwan. This is perhaps the first sign that the U.S.-China Cold War may bring sudden disaster to the people of Taiwan.

As for economic strength, the Soviet Union economy never surpassed perhaps 30% of the U.S. economy. China is already our equal. Its naval and air forces will soon be MUCH stronger than the U.S. in the East China (and South China) Sea.

The Soviets knew had they moved into West Berlin, a trip wire would have been crossed resulting in massive retaliation. That tactic worked there, it’s worked in Korea, & would work against China. To combat the Chinese in the South China Sea region, we need to hold over their head the idea of the US recognizing Taiwan as an independent state. That’s the key to fighting the leeches that are communist states. You have to be willing to play ante up. China is increasingly being seen as a pariah especially after they allowed this virus to spread through their incompetence, corruption, & stupidity. We will need to go back to a Cold War footing to rid the world of communism.

... The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force... That would be a disastrous American military adventure likely to escalate to nuclear war. The U.S. could not “win” such a fight, but might be willing to lose Taiwan as part of a mad campaign to isolate and quarantine China. I personally don’t believe the U.S., under Pompeo and Trump, are likely to purposefully take matters that far. However, China’s leadership could move on Taiwan earlier than expected if it feels it is being “decoupled,” sanctioned and humiliated by the West...

Ridiculous. Saddam made similar calculations about conquering "it's province" of Kuwait, which was actually an independent people. This pretense that the CCP "controls" Taiwan, when the CCP has NEVER controlled Taiwan is a nothing more than a figment of their imagination.

Saddam was also certain that no one would really care if he moved his international boundary, now he is dead. It's quite doubtful that the PLA can take Taiwan, more likely it would prove to be the graveyard of the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing.

The idea that China has this massive amphibious assault capability is yet another fabrication. This year China launched only its second amphibious assault ship:

The Chinese Navy has now launched a second large amphibious assault ship engineered to carry weapons, helicopters, troops and landing craft into war.​

The ship is described at the second Type 075 Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD), somewhat analogous to the U.S. WASP-class. This Chinese amphibious assault ship reportedly displaces as much as 30,000 tons and is able to carry as many as 28 helicopters, a report from Naval News states. The report adds that the new People’s Liberation Army Navy LHD is likely powered by a diesel engine with 9,000kW, four Close In Weapons Systems and HQ-10 surface-to-air missiles. The new ship’s “aim is likely to increase the “vertical” amphibious assault capability with the very mountainous East Coast of Taiwan in mind,” the Naval News report writes.​

The addition of more LHDs certainly increases China’s maritime attack power, making it a formidable threat along the Taiwanese coastline. Photos of the ship show well-deck in back, capable of launching ship-to-shore transport craft similar to the U.S. Navy Landing Craft Air Cushion or newer Ship-to-Shore Connector. Such a configuration makes it appear somewhat similar to U.S. Navy WASP-class which, unlike the first two ships of the America-class, also operates with a well-deck from which to launch large-scale amphibious assaults.​

​

Wikipedia says a third ship of this type is under construction.

Three ships isn’t going to get a Taiwanese invasion done, no matter how advanced, even assuming all the helicopters and landing ships make it to shore. (They wouldn’t.) However, China also has some 70 other Type 071 through 074 amphibious assault ships in it’s inventory, plus some 200 or so small landing craft, slightly larger than the ones that hit Omaha Beach, some almost 50 years old, many with hovercraft designs. They have some even older, Soviet-derived crap, that I doubt they’d try to use unless they were really desperate.

For comparison, the U.S. Navy used over 500 ships during the invasion of Iwo Jima, an island of 8 square miles, as opposed to Taiwan’s 973.

Chinese planning calls for a massive “set everything moving straight across the straits at once” push, which leaves only April and October as suitable, because the smaller and older craft simply wouldn’t make it in rougher seas. Such a plan collapses, without massive air superiority over the strait, into a repeat of The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, only with a lot more target and precision munitions.

We all know that that the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing shelled the outpost island of Kinmen (AKA Quemoy) for months. The result? The islanders use the steel from the bombs to make excellent knives:

​

​

Has Lying Outlaw China given any thought to stopping their lying, obeying their international commitments, and bringing to an end their threats to mount military operations against their peaceful neighbors, coming clean on their guilt for lying about COVID and making a good faith effort to help the world mitigate the damage that their lies caused?

For China to go adventuring in a war of aggression against the hardy cliffs of Taiwan will likely be where the CCP dies.

China's wholesale theft of America is finally being checked.
Vietnam has had it with China illegally fishing and drilling in their territorial waters.
The Philippines the same.
India has had it with their border attacks.
Putin knows they are kleptomaniac thieves, but he is willing to make a buck off them.
The Aussies tire of their threats.
Japan is sick of them.

You need to develop an greater awareness just how fed up the world is with the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing. There is no benefit for the World, or more specifically The QUAD allowing the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing to swallow up the Free People of Taiwan. They are a Free People. They are willing to Fight, they have been preparing for this fight for 70 years, and should the fools of Beijing launch a war of aggression, what better place than Taiwan to expose them as a Paper Dragon?

Bottom line, there is a very strong case to be made that the CCP will perish if it attempts to take the Free People of Taiwan, which is likely why they have not ruled them for a single day, in the last 80 years.

The World tires of the Lying Outlaw Slavers empty threats: "Let us steal from you or we will slaughter the Free People of Taiwan!"

You know what? The Free World has a reply to the Lying Outlaw Slavers in Beijing: FOXTROT YANKEE!

 

[the other mike]

they are ruled by monsters

No. They are monsters of your imagination. The Chinese system is bureaucratic, authoritarian, and it has a tendency to throw up one man rule (even a cult of personality) now under Xi, all of which have deep cultural roots in Chinese society. The Party is like the old Confucian / imperial bureaucracy, now supervising a modern economy. It is not rooted in “communism” except in name. It is a nationalist party whose cadres are well educated people with deep connections to their society, proud of the difficult transformations they have overseen in society. Top leaders must rise through the ranks, rotated around the whole country, running cities and provinces and huge enterprises. No movie stars or diletantes. Corruption there certainly is. Cynicism. Despicable toadying sycophants. But the core leadership is probably a more meritocratic and competent force than you can imagine. Much more human, too.

If you could somehow tomorrow simply disappear the “evil” Xi leadership and the other top CP groups, what do you think might replace them? Among all the rich capitalists, the state capitalist enterprises, the furiously competitive and hard-working professionals and middle classes, the soldiers, the easily misled and ignorant poor — what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP? You might not like what would replace this party. It sure as hell won’t be a Jeffersonian democracy.

Since you continue to soft pedal the CCP, I will remind you this is the same country that produced the worst mass muderer in human history...Mao

Communism is a disease upon humanity...

Here's one most people don't know.

230,000 Died in a Dam Collapse That China Kept Secret for Years | OZY

The 1975 Banqiao Dam collapse was a manmade disaster that Beijing kept secret for decades.

www.ozy.com

 

[Mac-7]

The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force if Taiwan (or Hong Kong) was stupid enough to proclaim independence and it appeared that U.S. ships and planes would back them

If biden becomes president he is bought and paid for and will not interfere were china to invade Taiwan

certainly no one in europe other that poland will care because the greedy euros only care about money

as china’s navy grows stronger they will be able to threaten any nation bordering the Pacific Ocean, and certainly will if the smaller countries do not knuckle under

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force if Taiwan (or Hong Kong) was stupid enough to proclaim independence and it appeared that U.S. ships and planes would back them

If biden becomes president he is bought and paid for and will not interfere were china to invade Taiwan

certainly no one in europe other that poland will care because the greedy euros only care about money

as china’s navy grows stronger they will be able to threaten any nation bordering the Pacific Ocean, and certainly will if the smaller countries do not knuckle under

Not sure of your meaning about smaller nations “knuckling under.” China’s growing strength is a fact of life everywhere, but especially in Southeast Asia. Smaller countries in the region, and larger ones too, are profoundly linked to China through a web of capitalist trade relations, investments, tourism, etc. Some of the weaker countries have little choice but to deal with China the way tiny Central American and South American or African nations deal with the U.S. or their old colonial masters in Europe. They want and need investment and trade with China, while of course wanting to keep the Americans around too. The last thing they want is to be involved in any proxy wars!

The U.S. is now trying everything in its power to isolate China, and will encourage, as it did in Hong Kong, Taiwanese and Southeast Asians to “take a stand” against China. That didn’t help Hong Kong and could be a sudden death knell for Taiwan. Nobody in their right mind wants to see a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. But some in this country are crazy enough to imagine Taiwan could somehow “win” such a fight, or don’t care, since at any rate such a conflict would surely help isolate China.

The U.S. under Trump is selling expensive weapons systems to Taiwan. It is also now pressuring Taiwan companies to end all sales of high tech chips to Chinese companies. Taiwan can only very partially disengage from China, its greatest trade partner, where 100,000 Taiwanese businesses have been set up and possibly a million Taiwan citizens live.

Since Taiwan is not recognized as an independent country under the long-standing U.N.-acknowledged “One China” policy, and China considers it has the right to reunite the island to the mainland by force if necessary, much greater U.S. “success” in breaking Taiwan-China production chains will quite likely make China react decisively. U.S. troops or navy vessels visiting the island will also almost certainly lead China to react. China needn’t “invade” either. Using full economic pressure on Taiwan, flying over and surrounding the island with ships and planes, ultimately imposing partial blockades, these methods will probably make Taiwan “knuckle under.” Unpopular in the West, absolutely. But probably popular in China. The U.S. will only fight ... to the last Taiwanese.

But of course miscalculations are possible, even likely, if military confrontations occur. China-U.S. war, even nuclear conflict, could result.

 

[Zorro!]

The Chinese, however, would today be willing to pay any “propaganda” price and seize Taiwan by force if Taiwan (or Hong Kong) was stupid enough to proclaim independence and it appeared that U.S. ships and planes would back them

If biden becomes president he is bought and paid for and will not interfere were china to invade Taiwan

certainly no one in europe other that poland will care because the greedy euros only care about money

as china’s navy grows stronger they will be able to threaten any nation bordering the Pacific Ocean, and certainly will if the smaller countries do not knuckle under

...The U.S. is now trying everything in its power to isolate China...

Fake News. We have no Naval forces blockading their coast, and we conducted $332B in business with the lying outlaw state, just through 8/31/20 of this year. So your claim that we are doing "everything we can to isolate China" is just silly childish whining.

China remains our #3 trading partner, after enjoying many years as our top trading partner, something they apparently think they are now entitled to even though they lie to us, steal from us and loosed a pandemic on us.

... “take a stand” against China....

Yeah, we are arresting your spies, those engaged in espionage, you are paying a hell of lot more in voluntary tariffs. And if China launches a war of Aggression, they may very quickly find the free nations of the world quickly forming up against it, just as the Free Nations did when Japan, Germany and Iraq tried to conquer and enslave Free neighbors.

... could be a sudden death knell for Taiwan....

If we don't bow to demands that we allow China to freely steal from us then China will kill neighboring Taiwan? This threat is psychopathic in it's viciousness and moronic given that China has no actual ability to carry it out. Should they be foolish enough to launch such a war of aggression it's quite likely that the fierce fighters of Taiwan will drown your forces as they haplessly throw themselves against the rocky cliffs of the Taiwan shoreline. You really should cease your silly stupid and empty threats.

... Taiwan could somehow “win” such a fight...

They very likely would repel the invasion.

... or don’t care, since at any rate such a conflict would surely help isolate China...

Such a pathetic risky pointless desperate and failed gamble that left the PLA drowning in the strait would likely end the legitimacy of the rule of the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing. Do yourself a favor and shut up with the empty threats that if the US doesn't do as much business with China as the Lying Thieves want us to, that they will slaughter the free people of Taiwan. More likely Taiwan will drown and burn the invading hordes.

... The U.S. under Trump is selling expensive weapons systems to Taiwan...

Yup. World class weaponry. And we have already sold them a lot, believe me. Taiwan is bristling with all kinds of surprises should the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing attempt to invade on the silly pretense that the US no longer lets them freely steal from us to the extent that past Administrations did.

... It is also now almost forcing Taiwan to join the U.S. in banning sale of its high tech chips to Chinese companies...

Fake News. Unlike the Lying Slavers of Beijing, our interactions with our trading partners are all freely conducted. We don't threaten to murder innocent third parties if another country doesn't want to do the volume of business with us that we desire.

... Taiwan can only very partially disengage from China, its greatest trade partner, where 100,000 Taiwanese businesses have been set up and possibly a million Taiwan citizens live...

They are free to do as they wish, we find the Chinese People of Taiwan to be great business partners, trustworthy, dependable, and they don't lie to us, steal from us, or loose pandemics on us, and they don't threaten to kill innocent third parties when our negotiations don't go exactly as they desire.

... China considers it has the right to reunite the island to the mainland by force if necessary...

Well, that was Saddam's pretext for taking Kuwait. That was Hitler's pretext for invading Poland. There is nothing new. The CCP has been claiming this for 70 years, there is a reason Taiwan remains free.

... China has , much greater U.S. “success” in breaking Taiwan-China production chains will quite likely make China react decisively... U.S. troops or navy vessels visiting the island will also almost certainly lead China to react. China needn’t “invade” either. Using full economic pressure on Taiwan, flying over and surrounding the island with ships and planes, ultimately imposing partial blockades, these methods will do the trick. Unpopular in the West, sure....

Yeah, Gunboat diplomacy doesn't have a lot of fans. The Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing trying to illegally restrict international traffic in international water, doesn't either.

Lying Outlaw Slaver Beijing uses intimidation to undermine the sovereign rights of Southeast Asian coastal states in the South China Sea, bully them out of offshore resources, assert unilateral dominion, and replace international law with “might makes right.” Beijing’s approach has been clear for years. In 2010, then-PRC Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi told his ASEAN counterparts that “China is a big country and other countries are small countries and that is just a fact.” The PRC’s predatory world view has no place in the 21st century.

The PRC has no legal grounds to unilaterally impose its will on the region. Beijing has offered no coherent legal basis for its “Nine-Dashed Line” claim in the South China Sea since formally announcing it in 2009. In a unanimous decision on July 12, 2016, an Arbitral Tribunal constituted under the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention – to which the PRC is a state party – rejected the PRC’s maritime claims as having no basis in international law. The Tribunal sided squarely with the Philippines, which brought the arbitration case, on almost all claims.

As the United States has previously stated, and as specifically provided in the Convention, the Arbitral Tribunal’s decision is final and legally binding on both parties. The US aligns our position on the PRC’s maritime claims in the SCS with the Tribunal’s decision. Specifically:

• The PRC cannot lawfully assert a maritime claim – including any Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) claims derived from Scarborough Reef and the Spratly Islands – vis-a-vis the Philippines in areas that the Tribunal found to be in the Philippines’ EEZ or on its continental shelf. Beijing’s harassment of Philippine fisheries and offshore energy development within those areas is unlawful, as are any unilateral PRC actions to exploit those resources. In line with the Tribunal’s legally binding decision, the PRC has no lawful territorial or maritime claim to Mischief Reef or Second Thomas Shoal, both of which fall fully under the Philippines’ sovereign rights and jurisdiction, nor does Beijing have any territorial or maritime claims generated from these features.
• As Beijing has failed to put forth a lawful, coherent maritime claim in the South China Sea, the United States rejects any PRC claim to waters beyond a 12-nautical mile territorial sea derived from islands it claims in the Spratly Islands (without prejudice to other states’ sovereignty claims over such islands). As such, the United States rejects any PRC maritime claim in the waters surrounding Vanguard Bank (off Vietnam), Luconia Shoals (off Malaysia), waters in Brunei’s EEZ, and Natuna Besar (off Indonesia). Any PRC action to harass other states’ fishing or hydrocarbon development in these waters – or to carry out such activities unilaterally – is unlawful.
• The PRC has no lawful territorial or maritime claim to (or derived from) James Shoal, an entirely submerged feature only 50 nautical miles from Malaysia and some 1,000 nautical miles from China’s coast. James Shoal is often cited in PRC propaganda as the “southernmost territory of China.” International law is clear: An underwater feature like James Shoal cannot be claimed by any state and is incapable of generating maritime zones. James Shoal (roughly 20 meters below the surface) is not and never was PRC territory, nor can Beijing assert any lawful maritime rights from it.

The world will not allow Beijing to treat the South China Sea as its maritime empire. America stands with our Southeast Asian allies and partners in protecting their sovereign rights to offshore resources, consistent with their rights and obligations under international law. We stand with the international community in defense of freedom of the seas and respect for sovereignty and reject any push to impose “might makes right” in the South China Sea or the wider region.

... The U.S. will only fight ... to the last Taiwanese...

What fight? I see no actual fight occurring between the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing and the Free People of Taiwan. We will sail our ships freely in international water, we will dock them freely in nations that welcome them, we will trade freely with those who wish to trade with us. If this bends the noses the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing, that's their problem.

... But of course, miscalculations are possible. World War, including nuclear World War, could result....

That's moronic. China doesn't get it's way on everything in trade with the US, and suddenly we have loud mouthed claims threatening amphibious invasions of Free neighbors, when they don't have the boats for the job and they have fighting forces that their own leaders admit are not in shape to fight because all they want to do is play video games and masturbate. So then it's WWIII! and Thermonuclear War! What a bunch of drama queens. When did the pathetic lying outlaws of Beijing turn the North Korean Kims into role models? Hell, keep this crap up and Kim will be viewed as more rational that the Lying Slavers of Beijing.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Well, it is certainly true that YOU could do a lot more to isolate China...

For example, you could throw away your Chinese made computer and spare us your endless nonsense — which by the way I no longer bother to read.

 

[Zorro!]

Well, it is certainly true that YOU could do a lot more to isolate China...

Yup. But, we are a peace-loving nation that doesn't threaten 3rd party peaceful neighbors when we don't get our way in trade negotiations like the Lying Outlaw Slavers of Beijing are doing with their loud empty threats against the Fiercely Free People of Taiwan.

CHINA’S ASPIRATIONAL ARMY:

While China wants an army that can perform as well as Western forces, they won’t get it until they convert to an all-volunteer force and upgrade initial combat training to Western standards. China is switching to Western training methods but is not yet willing to spend what it takes to pay all the troops what they are worth.

China is not going to be able to take Taiwan with a bunch of conscripts in fishing boats. It's unclear to me why the idiot clown Outlaw Slavers in Beijing think that threatening war against Taiwan improves their negotiating position with the US. What the US is looking for in it's critical supply chains is honesty, performance and customer service. All these clowns are doing with their murderous threats against innocent 3rd parties is confirming that they are a bunch of lunatics that are starting to make Kim's North Korea look more sane by comparison.

I suspect the orderly shifting of Civilized World supply chains out of the territory controlled by the Lying Outlaw Slaver Imperialists of Beijing into more civilized, advanced and trustworthy manufacturing nations, will continue. All this frothing at the mouth and threats of war just confirms to the world that these folks are badly unbalanced.

 

[Mac-7]

The U.S. is now trying everything in its power to isolate China,

You mean trump is trying to isolate china

biden and the libs are ready to kiss china’s ring as soon as possible

yes china wants to conquer the smaller nations of asia as it once ruled before the rise of europe

and the only thing standing in its way is America

 

[Mac-7]

The U.S. will only fight ... to the last Taiwanese.

You seem to have the impression that Taiwan wants to be part of china and I say they dont

its in the world’s best interest that Taiwan remain free and independent even if shortsighted libs in America and europe cannot see it

 

[Mac-7]

China is not going to be able to take Taiwan with a bunch of conscripts in fishing boats.

The red chinese navy is larger than ours and very modern

It's a real threat to the US Navy and in a showdown nothing to be laughed at

 

[BluesLegend]

China is a corrupt, murderous regime who steals from and threatens other countries.

 

[Mac-7]

Nobody in their right mind wants to see a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

Of course

China apologists, along with Beijing itself, would much prefer a peaceful takeover of Taiwan so as not to awaken too many libs in the West from their slumber

 

[The Original Tree]

Former Prime Minister of Australia gives his view on the future of relations with china

Unfortunately while he tries to be non partisan, in the end he ends up thinking with his heart instead of his head

he does not think the communist dictatorship is evil, and in fact could be our friend if we just try harder to understand each other

Its 20 minutes and worth a listen

The UN is a complete Joke and should be demolished. Russia, China and Cuba where just allowed in The Human Rights Council.

They can take their 666 Sustainable Development, Chip in Yo Ass, Cashless, Godless Global Government and shove it up their ass sideways!

 

[Dogbiscuit]

Wow !!! I read every post, and this was some interesting reading material, including both facts and opinions.
So when asking rhetorically, how has recent opinions of the CCP changed militarily, post covid ? I mean when factoring in that China had planned on this virus completely shutting down the U.S., battleships, etc..., combined with the fact that Trump and Pompeo have been rallying other countries, of whom most countries are very upset with China and now look up to America as big brother, and now that China has ALL eyes on them ?
I personally feel that Trump knew that China had been contemplating a virus attack, and has had an strategy in place should they go down that road, and they did.

 

[Zorro!]

There will always be tension between major powers but threatened national security interests cause wars, either directly or by proxies. At present, Taiwan and North Korea pose the most serious threats to either side. I think China might be willing to pull the plug on NK if we abandoned Taiwan, but that would be a tough peanut to swallow.

Taiwan anchors the "First Island Chain" that hinders China's dream of becoming an even bigger Regional bully than it already is. Unlike the free and open water off both of the US Coasts, Asian waters are filled with various island groups that have shipping chokepoints that traffic has to pick through, even to sail from India to Australia. A belligerent Regional wanna be hegemon could quickly scramble international shipping if they were allowed to arrogate national control over international shipping lanes. The US, in accordance with international treaties that Outlaw Lying Slaver China is a party too, maintains freedom of navigation through these waters that China repeatedly tries to steal.

Lying Outlaw Slaver China thought it was just a grand arrangement that the US would pay for it's military build up of a military that could directly challenge the US by generously allowing China to steal our technology and run massive trade deficits against the American Worker.

There was a time when China was a very poor nation and American generosity made sense, but, now China is an established successful nation that no longer needs US charity, so Trump, is actually treating them with more respect that his predecessors by recognizing their ability to trade with us fairly.

The Lying Outlaw Slaver's childish antics in response, complete with the threat to murder the Free People of Taiwan if we don't submit to their tantrums are very disappointing but for us to give in such misbehavior would only encourage more of it. No. The First Island Chain, of which Taiwan is a major part, is the right place to hold the line against the rise of a bullying expansionist China.

They would no more be satiated with the blood of Taiwan than Germany was satisfied with Poland, so why sacrifice Taiwan?

Quad deterrence.

For China, the Quad Is a Diplomatic and Military Double Whammy.

If the Free Nations are going to draw a line against a belligerent expansionistic militaristic China, they will certain use the aid of the natural geography of the First island Chain, of which, Taiwan is a major component.

The Quad has arrived as a global diplomatic combination, an Indo-Pacific military power.

For Beijing, the Quad's formation and solidification is a nightmare -- and China's communist government has only itself to blame.

In 2007, the Quad, at the behest of Japan, held its first meeting. A four nations regarded China as a disruptive actor in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. This common concern spurs close cooperation to confront it.

India, Australia, the U.S. and Japan have long-term defense relationships. Indian and Australian military contacts are close.

India for a very long time tried to peacefully resolve their border disputes in the Himalayas, but nearly a decade of Chinese imperialist territorial expansion, intellectual theft, military buildup and lawless behavior has sapped their patience. China's fake South China Sea islands bristle with weapons and violate the Philippines' and Vietnam's maritime zones. Beijing recently announced its new hypersonic missiles can smash Guam, a sovereign American territory. Human rights organizations document Beijing's genocide against Turkic Uighurs and ethnic Tibetans.

Today, Indian and Chinese military forces clash in the mountains as China builds a transportation network capable of supporting a sustained ground offensive driving south into the subcontinent.

India's leaders have finally learned that China's dictators interpret avoiding conflict with them as a form of appeasement.

The U.S. also had a learning curve. American optimism regarding China's future has turned to pessimism following their militarization of the South China Sea and the demonization of the U.S. by Chinese military leaders. The last straw: Beijing's deceit allowed COVID-19/the Wuhan virus to become a global pandemic.

The Quad's free democracies have chosen to cooperate. The US bluntly rebuked the Chinese Communist Party for covering up the epidemic's outbreak. "The regime's authoritarian nature led its leaders to lock up and silence the very brave Chinese citizens who were raising the alarm. The Quad is collaborating to protect our people and partners from the CCP's exploitation, corruption and coercion. We've seen it in the south, in the East China Sea, the Mekong, the Himalayas, the Taiwan Straits.

Today, Indian military forces routinely participate in Quad military exercises in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific. Indian naval forces enter in the South China Sea. Indian ships have exercised with Japanese air and naval forces in the East China Sea between Japan's home islands and Okinawa. Much to the chagrin of Chinese admirals, Indian, U.S., Japanese and Australian forces conduct coalition exercises in the Indian Ocean.

India knows it confronts a powerful, hostile China that seeks domination. One against one, India is at a disadvantage. But as a combination, the Quad can penalize Chinese economic and criminal mischief, and punish Chinese military adventurism.

The Quad can certainly keep the Free People of Taiwan well supplied while Taiwan beats the living crap out of any PLA forces foolish enough to try to invade.

I think China might be better served just being a honest trustworthy international trading partner of the Free and Civilized world.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

I think China might be better served just being a honest trustworthy international trading partner of the Free and Civilized world.

Which is why I think Trump and Pompeo have turned the virus into a tool against China, on the world platform, imo.

 

[Zorro!]

China is not going to be able to take Taiwan with a bunch of conscripts in fishing boats.

The red chinese navy is larger than ours and very modern

It's a real threat to the US Navy and in a showdown nothing to be laughed at

And, pretty easily bottled up by filling the gaps between all the islands that dot the First Island Chain. Were China to launch a war of aggression against it's peaceful neighbors, they could quickly find themselves trapped by a Naval Blockade that prevents them from export, but more importantly, they are neither energy independent or food independent, depending on imports for both if they want to be able to operate their vehicles and feed their people.

I think we should encourage the Lying Outlaws of Beijing to work on being good neighbors, trustworthy trading partners and to refrain from loosing pandemics on their best customers. They aren't real popular with anyone at the moment.

China currently has only two carriers. The Liaoning entered service in 2012. The nation’s first fully indigenously built carrier, the Shandong, entered service in December.

The former is conventionally powered, has an estimated full-load displacement of 60,000 to 66,000 tons, and reportedly can accommodate an air wing of 30 or more fixed-wing platforms. The Shandong features some design improvements and may be able to operate a larger air wing of 40 aircraft.

The vessels, lacking catapults, launch fixed-wing planes using an inclined “ski ramp.”

U.S. Navy aircraft carriers are nuclear powered — giving them greater cruising endurance than a conventionally powered ship — have a full-load displacement of about 100,000 tons, can accommodate air wings of 60 or more aircraft, and launch their fixed-wing aircraft using catapults, which can give those aircraft a range/payload capability greater than that of aircraft launched with a ski ramp.

The Pentagon has explored numerous hostile-China scenarios where U.S. sea, air and land forces reinforce Japan and South Korea or move to deter an invasion of Taiwan.

American and Japanese submarines can severely damage Chinese naval forces and pin them behind the western Pacific’s “first island chain” of Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines.

However, mines may be the weapon of choice. Sea mines, delivered by subs, aircraft (manned and drone) and perhaps missiles. Unmanned, robotic (autonomous) surface vessels can also mine China’s littoral.

Sub and aircraft mine laying is an old but effective method. A mine-laying campaign along China’s coast not only hinders China’s navy; it embargoes its economy. China now depends on natural resources shipped from Africa and southwest Asia. It is not a self-sufficient continental power.

China should probably focus on being a good neighbor and a trustworthy trading partner.