Arab-Israeli conflict Q&A

[toastman]

But then again, you ignore the fact that Palestine uses human shields. I can verify that if you need me to.

Please verify it from non-Western sources.

Why non western? Are you afraid one would be correct?

You nailed it

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Of course not. Why would I?

Then you can't say they are oppressing anyone or inhibiting the free movement of Palestinians. I attribute such an assertion as a talking point, not rooted in fact.

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen.

Actually I am. But I am always led by to my original position. The exception to that is my conversion from a neo-conservative to a libertarian.

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

Yes it does. Their superiors could have just as easily ordered them to let them die where they stood.

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

I can remember many a time where you lectured me for recklessly attributing groups of people to certain feelings or beliefs. Yet here you are doing it. Why?

I'm not, you are.

You're the one claiming that all of Israel "cares" about Palestinians.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman. I also personally know Israelis who are working with Palestinians in an attempt to end the conflict.

 

[toastman]

Of course not. Why would I?

Then you can't say they are oppressing anyone or inhibiting the free movement of Palestinians. I attribute such an assertion as a talking point, not rooted in fact.

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen.

Actually I am. But I am always led by to my original position. The exception to that is my conversion from a neo-conservative to a libertarian.

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

Yes it does. Their superiors could have just as easily ordered them to let them die where they stood.

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

I can remember many a time where you lectured me for recklessly attributing groups of people to certain feelings or beliefs. Yet here you are doing it. Why?

I'm not, you are.

You're the one claiming that all of Israel "cares" about Palestinians.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman. I also personally know Israelis who are working with Palestinians in an attempt to end the conflict.

Bullshit. You don't know any Israelis who think that.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Of course not. Why would I?

Then you can't say they are oppressing anyone or inhibiting the free movement of Palestinians. I attribute such an assertion as a talking point, not rooted in fact.

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen.

Actually I am. But I am always led by to my original position. The exception to that is my conversion from a neo-conservative to a libertarian.

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

Yes it does. Their superiors could have just as easily ordered them to let them die where they stood.

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

I can remember many a time where you lectured me for recklessly attributing groups of people to certain feelings or beliefs. Yet here you are doing it. Why?

I'm not, you are.

You're the one claiming that all of Israel "cares" about Palestinians.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman. I also personally know Israelis who are working with Palestinians in an attempt to end the conflict.

Bullshit. You don't know any Israelis who think that.

It is of no consequence to me if you believe me or not.

 

[Billo_Really]

I can't believe it, shit-for-brains (Phoenall) comes through with another all-time classic!

First he say's this...

Phoenall: "According to hamas gaza is not occupied, who should I believe the elected rulers or you ?"​

Then just 3 posts later, he say's this...

Phoenall: "What would you count as proof, the words of hamas officials..."​

You couldn't think someone would be this stupid, they had to actually do it!

 

[toastman]

Of course not. Why would I?

Then you can't say they are oppressing anyone or inhibiting the free movement of Palestinians. I attribute such an assertion as a talking point, not rooted in fact.

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen.

Actually I am. But I am always led by to my original position. The exception to that is my conversion from a neo-conservative to a libertarian.

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

Yes it does. Their superiors could have just as easily ordered them to let them die where they stood.

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

I can remember many a time where you lectured me for recklessly attributing groups of people to certain feelings or beliefs. Yet here you are doing it. Why?

I'm not, you are.

You're the one claiming that all of Israel "cares" about Palestinians.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman. I also personally know Israelis who are working with Palestinians in an attempt to end the conflict.

Bullshit. You don't know any Israelis who think that.

It is of no consequence to me if you believe me or not.

Are we still friends ?

 

[Billo_Really]

But, you'll have to do better than a left leaning website. Seriously.

I wouldn't talk about other peoples sources, when you use American Thinker.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But, you'll have to do better than a left leaning website. Seriously.

I wouldn't talk about other peoples sources, when you use American Thinker.

Coming from someone who wouldn't do any research on the claims before dismissing the source. I gave PF Tinmore that courtesy.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

Once again, you fail to explain by what means Israel is inhibiting the free movement of the Palestinians. An analogy. If you didn't let me into your home because I was a threat to you, would you be oppressing me? No. You would be acting in the interests of your welfare. Food for thought.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman.

I bet they belong to the ultra orthodox Haredi sect of Judaism. I would only expect such language from the extremist element.

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

Actually, it does. Why wouldn't it precisely?

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

And while I contemplate a response to this challenge, I also challenge you to put yourself in the shoes of an everyday common Israeli. Please let me know what you come up with.

Wait. Nevermind. Let's say I am a Palestinian.

I am oppressed by my government. My rights are more suppressed by my government than by Israel. The toll the conflict has taken on me personally is terrible. I want peace rather than having thousands of my brethren slaughtered in a futile struggle. Day in and day out I wonder if it is even worth it.

Or

I am proud of my government. My rights are suppressed by those filthy Zionist pigs who don't even belong where they are. They invaded my home, and I want Israel to die, I want Jews to die. Peace is the last thing on my mind. The sacrifice of my countrymen are for the betterment of the fight against Israel. Day in and day out, I look forward to how many ways we can further bring the State of Israel down by provoking them into responding. My freedom is worth the life of each and every Palestinian who has died in Allah's name fighting for it. Their deaths bring us closer to driving Israel into the sea.

 

[RoccoR]

theDoctorisIn, et al,

Many aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are initially philosophically unintuitive.

The fact that it may be in the best security interests of Israel to not allow free movement of Palestinians does not change that it is oppressing them by doing so.

(COMMENT)

Absolutely correct. But the control device is in the hands of the Palestinians. The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) represent the source of the threat. The greater that perception of threat, the greater the security interest, the more that quarantine, containment and suppression activities are needed as countermeasures to that perceived threat. Obviously the inverse is true. The less the perceived threat, the less the emphasis there will be on the need for countermeasures.

Who controls the reigns on the perceived threat? The Palestinians! The less the Palestinians demonstrate a threat, the more relaxed the countermeasures become.

The few countermeasures, the less the perception of "oppression" due to an increase in the emphasis on countermeasures to HoAP activity. The Palestinians actually control the level of perceived "oppression."

So try putting yourself into the perspective of a Palestinian. Not a militant extremist, just a guy living his life - and try to imagine the Israel-Palestine conflict from that perspective. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

(COMMENT)

We call this the "silent" component because we seldom (rarely) hear from them. What we hear is demonstration against Israel and disturbances opposed to Israel; and of course, the violence. The average American never hears from a moderate or balanced component of the Palestinian society; only some form of anti-Israeli activity. There is no real evidence that a moderate or balanced component even exists in the general population.

The Palestinian Government (PNA/HAMAS) has more than a dozen terrorist groups associated with it. The general population has openly given material support to these various groups. There is no way to emulate a thinking --- or empathize with --- "just a guy living his life" in Palestine [the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) or Gaza]. Even right here in the discussion group it is often advocate that the HoAP has the right to use "any means available" to strike at Israel, to include civilians. Just today, I had to argue the definition of a "civilian" and the misinterpretation that "Israeli civilians" are not legitimate targets.

So I ask, give me some yard stick by which you consider --- "just a guy living his life" --- one that has not rendered material support in favor of the designated terrorists, Jihadist, Fedayeen, insurgents, or asymmetric guerrillas --- and I'll do my best to run a thought experiment/simulation. But I am skeptical that there is any moderate or balance component in the general population of Palestinians of any significants (other than anecdotal examples).

That still only addresses the opinions of the superiors, not the country as a whole.

(COMMENT)

Of course. The Impact of Chronic Terrorism on any Society is going to have a whole range of adverse symptoms to add to the mix; least of all the elements of mistrust and hatred. But in the Israel general population, there is a greater and growing (much more) open discussion concerning the legitimate grievances the Palestinians have; much more so than the reverse in Palestine (oPt).

You're the one claiming that all of Israel "cares" about Palestinians.

Some "care", some don't. I personally know Israelis who think that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are subhuman. I also personally know Israelis who are working with Palestinians in an attempt to end the conflict.

(COMMENT)

In any culture, there is a spectrum of thought on nearly any topic you might raise; and the Israel-Palestinian Conflict has a wide-diversity of contributors to the topic. And in any given population, there are going to be extremist views. So yes! I am not surprised at all that you can point to anecdotal extremist view that weigh heavily against Israeli policies.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

All of the above - yes. But we, as a nation - pick and choose. I like to think, and do think, that we Americans are a generous people.

On the other hand, look at what you just said. Our generosity is "qualified" (according to you)...Haitian children deserve our concern...Mexican children do not.

I think true compassion would NOT draw such distinctions. People in need are people in need. Don't you think?

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

I'm not vetting ANYONE's sources. You are the one who claimed another's source was biased and then presented and equally biased source.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

 

[Coyote]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

 

[TemplarKormac]

Mexican children do not.

Think about that for a moment, do their parents really care about them? Why would they send them across our border alone, or put them in the hands of shady figures? No.

You are the one who claimed another's source was biased and then presented and equally biased source.

So, you can't really call my source biased then. You made an automatic judgement about my source without vetting the claims it made.

All of the above - yes. But we, as a nation - pick and choose. I like to think, and do think, that we Americans are a generous people.

I beg to differ. Generosity is indiscriminate. So is compassion. But such compassion cannot come at the risk of the benefactor.

I think true compassion would NOT draw such distinctions. People in need are people in need. Don't you think?

There are people in need, and then there people who want to kill you or take advantage of you, that is as far as this thread is concerned.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

Don't worry. I'm getting the hang of multiquoting... but then I press backspace only to discover it went back to the previous page, all that work... gone. Augh!!!

 

[Coyote]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

Don't worry. I'm getting the hang of multiquoting... but then I press backspace, all that work... gone.

It's a clever plot to drive us all mad. I'm convinced.

Utter madness!

 

[TemplarKormac]

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.


Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

Don't worry. I'm getting the hang of multiquoting... but then I press backspace, all that work... gone.

It's a clever plot to drive us all mad. I'm convinced.

Utter madness!

Yeah, I tried Ubuntu, and well I had a headache just looking for the notepad application. But I must concede that Windows 8 sucks just as bad.

 

[Coyote]

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

Don't worry. I'm getting the hang of multiquoting... but then I press backspace, all that work... gone.

It's a clever plot to drive us all mad. I'm convinced.

Utter madness!

Yeah, I tried Ubuntu, and well I had a headache just looking for the notepad application. But I must concede that Windows 8 sucks just as bad.

My hubby thinks Ubuntu is the next Messiah. I disagree.

Eventually I will win.

I'll get another laptop and it WILL NOT HAVE UBUNTU! (I can't even listen to my music on this - I'm in bad shape )

 

[TemplarKormac]

Was there a response attached to this post? It disappeared.

Yah..I had to edit my post. I have the most retarded (insert multiple explitives) system right now - I blew up my laptop (NO was NOT my fault) am using a limping handicapped laptop with UBUNTU - SUCKS) and it won't let me respond directly - I have to respond with a blank post and then edit it. Yes, I'm a techtard but this is beyond tard!


(frustrated)

Don't worry. I'm getting the hang of multiquoting... but then I press backspace, all that work... gone.

It's a clever plot to drive us all mad. I'm convinced.

Utter madness!

Yeah, I tried Ubuntu, and well I had a headache just looking for the notepad application. But I must concede that Windows 8 sucks just as bad.

LOL.

 

[Billo_Really]

Coming from someone who wouldn't do any research on the claims before dismissing the source. I gave PF Tinmore that courtesy.

Oh, I've done a ton of research on that subject. I also read the entire article you linked. It made the same bullshit claim many on the pro-Israeli side make, that these are "disputed territories".

The entire world has considered them "occupied territories" since 1967. They are territories Israel seized during the 6-day war. You cannot hold onto land seized in a war. You cannot change the demographics of an area under occupation.

There is no mechanism in international law that would change an "occupied" territory, into a "disputed" one. The only thing you can do with an occupation, is to end it.

So yes, the settlements are illegal.