Arab-Israeli conflict Q&A

[Coyote]

1) Is Israel oppressing Palestine? Yes or No? Why?
Yes. Currently, it occupies territory and that territories residents exist in a no-mans land in regards to rights, law and justice. They have no state and no citizenship and are subject to collective punishment for any violations.

2) Is Israel killing Palestinian citizens out of malice? Yes or No? Why?
No. It's long standing conflict of assymetrical warfare.

3) Does Israel have a right to defend itself? Yes or No? Why?
Yes. Every nation as the right to defend itself and keep it's citizens safe.

4) Is Israel evil? Yes or No? Why?
No. Seriously - you need a reason?

5) Does Israel deserve to be funded by the United States? Yes or No? Why?
Not sure what you mean.

No nation "deserves" to be funded. The reasons for "funding" a nation are varied depending on alliances, strategic values, humanitarian needs...

6) Do you think Palestine might be oppressing its own citizens? Yes or No? Why?
Yes. Their leadership has yet to create anything concrete for it's people in terms of peace, a sustainable government, economic prosperity etc. Corruption is a huge problem.

7) Do you think Palestine cares about its own people? Yes or No? Why?
I think this question is to broad to answer because it depends on who you mean.

8) Should Israel be evicted from their homeland? Yes or No? Why?
No. Neither Israel nor Palestine should be evicted from their homeland. Although I noticed you only asked about one.

9) Should Israel revert to its 1967 borders? Yes or No? Why?
Not sure. I think that could be a starting point for negotiations that will inevitably include land swaps so a viable state can be achieved for the Palestinians and security can be achieved for Israel.

10) Do you think Israel cares about Palestine? Yes or No? Why?
No, not particularly. Why? What reasons have you seen to indicate that they care?

 

[Coyote]

By the way, the settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights are not illegal:

Articles Israeli Settlements Are Not Illegal

I wouldn't exactly label this site objective...

 

[TemplarKormac]

By the way, the settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights are not illegal:

Articles Israeli Settlements Are Not Illegal

I wouldn't exactly label this site objective...

Then by all means, show me something that is.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

1) Is Israel oppressing Palestine? Yes or No? Why?

How do you define "oppression"?

2) Is Israel killing Palestinian citizens out of malice? Yes or No? Why?

No, but intention is a lot less important than a lot of people think. Killing innocent victims as "collateral damage" isn't that much better than doing it on purpose.

3) Does Israel have a right to defend itself? Yes or No? Why?

Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves?

4) Is Israel evil? Yes or No? Why?

No. Countries are not capable of "evil", only individual people are.

5) Does Israel deserve to be funded by the United States? Yes or No? Why?

"Deserve" isn't the right term for it. I don't think any country in the world "deserves" to be funded by the US.

6) Do you think Palestine might be oppressing its own citizens? Yes or No? Why?

I don't know.

7) Do you think Palestine cares about its own people? Yes or No? Why?

Yes.

8) Should Israel be evicted from their homeland? Yes or No? Why?

No, it's way too late for that.

9) Should Israel revert to its 1967 borders? Yes or No? Why?

I don't think that's a bad idea.

10) Do you think Israel cares about Palestine? Yes or No? Why?

Israel cares about Palestine the same way that the Conservatives in the US care about Mexico and Mexicans.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore you didn't respond to the crucial part of my post earlier..I'll get down to my point.
Annexing occupied territory is one thing, so the following question comes up;
Is the WB occupied or is it part of the state of Israel?
The lately-announced- wait there was an official announcement? it is necessary- Virtual state of Palestine hold no territory.
While Israel is the governing rule of the WB, there is no doubt about that except for the areas Israel allowed the PA to govern.
Lets ask again, who was it occupied from and when?

The West Bank is Israeli occupied Palestinian territory.

So you said..but here what doesn't work out in that claim you made.
1.When was the State of Palestine announced and what borders?

1948, inside its international borders.

2.Since when the West Bank is a Palestinian territory controlled by the State of Palestine?

It is not necessary to have control or be a state. People inside a defined, non self governing territory have the right to independence, sovereignty, and territorial integrity.

3.Didn't Jordan occupied the West Bank - 1948-1967?

It did.

 

[Coyote]

By the way, the settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights are not illegal:

Articles Israeli Settlements Are Not Illegal

I wouldn't exactly label this site objective...

Then by all means, show me something that is.

You criticized Tinmore for non-objective sources...just saying, if you're going to do that you might want to be more selective in your own...

 

[TemplarKormac]

No, not particularly. Why? What reasons have you seen to indicate that they care?

When six Israelis beat and killed a 16 year old Palestinian boy, about 6 months ago, the Israeli government arrested them and are prosecuting them under the fullest extent of their law.

July 2 - IDF Soldiers rescue a Palestinian man being beaten by an angry mob.

December 19, 2013 - the Israeli Defense Force in conjunction with unit 669 (Netzah Yehuda Battalion) of the IAF takes a deathly ill Palestinian boy from the Jordan Valley and rushes him to the nearest hospital for emergency treatment.

January 11, 2013 - Unit 669 of the Israeli Air Force rescues a three men from a flooded car in the Nablus River. In that same week, the IAF Search and Rescue contingent once again rescued a family of 8 Palestinians trapped on the roof of their home during a flood.

January 9, 2013 - In cooperation with Palestinian rescue forces, Unit 669 saves 30 Palestinians trapped in a bus during a flash flood.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You criticized Tinmore for non-objective sources...just saying, if you're going to do that you might want to be more selective in your own...

I asked you to show me what you defined as "objective." Instead you evaded.

You are more than free to vet the objectivity of my sources as you so please.

 

[Coyote]

No, not particularly. Why? What reasons have you seen to indicate that they care?

When six Israelis beat and killed a 16 year old Palestinian boy, about 6 months ago, the Israeli government arrested them and are prosecuting them under the fullest extent of their law.

July 2 - IDF Soldiers rescue a Palestinian man being beaten by an angry mob.

December 19, 2013 - the Israeli Defense Force in conjunction with unit 669 (Netzah Yehuda Battalion) of the IAF takes a deathly ill Palestinian boy from the Jordan Valley and rushes him to the nearest hospital for emergency treatment.

January 11, 2013 - Unit 669 of the Israeli Air Force rescues a three men from a flooded car in the Nablus River. In that same week, the IAF Search and Rescue contingent once again rescued a family of 8 Palestinians trapped on the roof of their home during a flood.

January 9, 2013 - In cooperation with Palestinian rescue forces, Unit 669 saves 30 Palestinians trapped in a bus during a flash flood.

I think there are people with humanitarian impulses - and certainly most doctors are that - that do not care who they treat - the person is more important than the identity. I think there are many humanitarian people in Israel. But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily. I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans. We give them medical aid, and such...but then? As a nation do we care?

 

[Coyote]

You criticized Tinmore for non-objective sources...just saying, if you're going to do that you might want to be more selective in your own...

I asked you to show me what you defined as "objective." Instead you evaded.

You are more than free to vet the objectivity of my sources as you so please.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

 

[TemplarKormac]

But does that translate into "does Israel care about the Palestinians?" - not necessarily.

Of course it does. The High Command could have simply told them to leave them be and let them meet their doom.

I think Doc had it right when he said they care about as much as we care about Mexicans.

Or, we could have left the Haitians to pick up the pieces after their earthquake, kept the Red Cross at home during the 2004 tsunami, or the 2011 tsunami in Japan, we could have ignored Turkey after it experienced a powerful earthquake of its own. We as a nation do care for the plight of others. As far as Mexicans are concerned, mercy doesn't necessarily take a back seat even when they enter here illegally. In fact, some of the things our government does goes beyond mercy and is akin to downright pampering people who break the law.

I didn't "evade" anything - I was pointing out your hypocrisy in criticizing Tinmore. Dodging are you?

Nope. I'm simply asking you what you see as objective. We all have our definitions, I want to hear yours before you start labeling me as hypocrite. Research the claims my source makes before you summarily dismiss them for their political leanings. It's only fair that you do.

You are being unfair by not vetting Tinmore's sources but going after mine. I not once saw you calling him out for his lack of objectivity. I took the time to read Tinmore's post and his link. I spent three hours researching the claims that it made and drafting a rebuttal. It appears to me you either read mine and dismissed it, or you chose not to read it at all. Objectivity is when you take the time to vet a source before you dismiss it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How do you define "oppression"?

Something a country does to intentionally rob a peoples of their basic freedoms.

No, but intention is a lot less important than a lot of people think. Killing innocent victims as "collateral damage" isn't that much better than doing it on purpose.

Intention has everything to do with it.

But then again, you ignore the fact that Palestine uses human shields. I can verify that if you need me to.

Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves?

Not if they are continually provoking a military power into acting against them. I gather you think Palestine has done nothing wrong this entire time. For every action there is a reaction.

No, it's way too late for that.

So in hindsight, are you suggesting Israel should have never been given a homeland?

I don't think that's a bad idea.

Explain.

Israel cares about Palestine the same way that the Conservatives in the US care about Mexico and Mexicans.

As I demonstrated to Coyote, the former is untrue, and the latter is also untrue.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Yes.

Explain. How do they care for their own people?

"We love death more than you love life."

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How do you define "oppression"?

Something a country does to intentionally rob a peoples of their basic freedoms.

Well then yes - Israel is oppressing Palestinians. I would consider freedom of movement as a "basic freedom".

No, but intention is a lot less important than a lot of people think. Killing innocent victims as "collateral damage" isn't that much better than doing it on purpose.

Intention has everything to do with it.

But then again, you ignore the fact that Palestine uses human shields. I can verify that if you need me to.

You have this thing about assigning morals and opinions uniformly to large, non-homogenous populations.

"Palestine" doesn't use human shields - some Palestinians do. The vast majority of Palestinians care a lot more about their families and day-to-day existence than they do politics - just like Americans.

Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves?

Not if they are continually provoking a military power into acting against them. I gather you think Palestine has done nothing wrong this entire time. For every action there is a reaction.

I don't know where you could have possibly "gathered" that from anything I've said, but an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Palestinian man #1 isn't responsible for the actions of Palestinian man #2. If #1 provoked action against the IDF, that doesn't making killing #2 legitimate.

No, it's way too late for that.

So in hindsight, are you suggesting Israel should have never been given a homeland?

I'm not one for living in the past, I'm a realist. I don't feel the need to waste my time on things that occurred nearly 40 years before I was born. Israel is here, that's reality. It's not going anywhere.

I don't think that's a bad idea.

Explain.

Basically, because it's the only hope for peace in the area.

Israel cares about Palestine the same way that the Conservatives in the US care about Mexico and Mexicans.

As I demonstrated to Coyote, the former is untrue, and the latter is also untrue.

[/quote]

No, you didn't "demonstrate" either of those things.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Well then yes - Israel is oppressing Palestinians. I would consider freedom of movement as a "basic freedom".

And I wouldn't suppose you know how Israel goes about achieving this?

I don't know where you could have possibly "gathered" that from anything I've said, but an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Sure, but if I let my aggressor have both of my eyes, I'd be blind. If Israel were to capitulate, then they would be rendered defenseless before their enemies. Turning the other cheek just doesn't cut it.

I'm a realist.

Then as a realist, you should understand Israel's needs as well as Palestine's. Realism doesn't allow someone to take sides. Granted I have done so on more than one occasion, but there are also things I will not back down from. So, applied to this topic of discussion, Israel should not be made to back down.

Israel is here, that's reality. It's not going anywhere.

Do I detect a hint of despair in your words?

No, you didn't "demonstrate" either of those things.

Please, explain how I didn't. So convinced you are that a whole nation or another cares not for a certain group of people just because of who they are, the notion is downright foolish.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Basically, because it's the only hope for peace in the area.

And how would this benefit Israel? By retreating the borders to pre-1967 levels, you are putting key population centers at risk, hence why they are indefensible.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Well then yes - Israel is oppressing Palestinians. I would consider freedom of movement as a "basic freedom".

And I wouldn't suppose you know how Israel goes about achieving this?

Of course not. Why would I?

I don't know where you could have possibly "gathered" that from anything I've said, but an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Sure, but if I let my aggressor have both of my eyes, I'd be blind. If Israel were to capitulate, then they would be rendered defenseless before their enemies. Turning the other cheek just doesn't cut it.

You really have a problem with seeing things as black and white.

What does "capitulate" mean? What does "defenseless" mean?

I'm a realist.

Then as a realist, you should understand Israel's needs as well as Palestine's. Realism doesn't allow someone to take sides. Granted I have done so on more than one occasion, but there are also things I will not back down from. So, applied to this topic of discussion, Israel should not be made to back down.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen. Not really much point in arguing about it then, is there?

Israel is here, that's reality. It's not going anywhere.

Do I detect a hint of despair in your words?

Only because you really, really want to. People see a lot of things that aren't there just because they wish they were.

No, you didn't "demonstrate" either of those things.

Please, explain how I didn't. So convinced you are that a whole nation or another cares not for a certain group of people just because of who they are, the notion is downright foolish.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

 

[montelatici]

But then again, you ignore the fact that Palestine uses human shields. I can verify that if you need me to.

Please verify it from non-Western sources.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Of course not. Why would I?

Then you can't say they are oppressing anyone or inhibiting the free movement of Palestinians. I attribute such an assertion as a talking point, not rooted in fact.

In other words, you're unwilling to see it from any perspective other than the one you've already chosen.

Actually I am. But I am always led by to my original position. The exception to that is my conversion from a neo-conservative to a libertarian.

4 examples of IDF soldiers helping Palestinians does not "demonstrate" that the entire country of Israel "cares" about the wellbeing of Palestinians.

Yes it does. Their superiors could have just as easily ordered them to let them die where they stood.

I know that many Israelis do, but I also know that many don't. Just like Mexicans in the US.

I can remember many a time where you lectured me for recklessly attributing groups of people to certain feelings or beliefs. Yet here you are doing it. Why?

 

[TemplarKormac]

But then again, you ignore the fact that Palestine uses human shields. I can verify that if you need me to.

Please verify it from non-Western sources.

Why non western? Are you afraid one would be correct?