Anti zionist Israeli 5 cents

[rylah]

theliq

You know what's funny? I know for sure that i'm against the machine of zionism. But guys like You're who actually create the so called "zio terrorists". It's because of arrogant people like You who treat every Hebrew the same. YOU CAN"T STAND IT WHEN A JEW IS ANTI_ZIONISM-you just never been programmed to deal with that.
I've never shot a bullet in my life and went to jail twice not to serve in the IDF. So how am I a terrorist? By having my own opinion? Well sorry Comrade.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT A "SHADOW" IS IN PSYCHOLOGY?

I'd use the Charles Manson attitude- YOU LOVE THE IDF AND ZIONISM!
It's Your daddy and mommy, otherwise how would You accept Yourself when they're gone? You see the filthiest jew is Your true shadow chuch.

Read some C.G. Jung.

 

[Moonglow]

What the hell is the 5 cents for?

 

[rylah]

Was written in self exploratory purpose. You'd know that if You actually read it.

 

[Hossfly]

rylah, et al,

May I add my welcome as well!

This is a thoughtful, honest and eloquent presentation.

First of all if You want a cooperation You should learn what motivates Your partner and what is the common ground.

(COMMENT)

I don't believe that at this time and period of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict there is real common ground for a peaceful settlement. I believe that both sides have been at an impasse since early 1948 and that the Arab Palestinian has not changed in its position in the intervening period. This is not to say that common ground cannot be found, but that the demands of the Arab Palestinian have been and continue to be the capitulation of the State of Israel.

Whether or not we call it "motivation" or not, the basic obstacle to peace in 1948 is still essentially the same asit is today:

(a) The Arabs of Palestine will never recognise the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

(b) The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.

(c) It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.

(d) The United Nations or its Commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

(e) The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

(f) The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

(g) The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.​

SOURCE: Statement of 6 February 1948 Communicated to the Secretary-General by Mr. Isa Nakhleh, Representative of the Arab Higher Committee

The leaders of the arab world are mainly religious people, who lead nations with a collective cultured set of values. It means that an arab usually first thinks about how he is presenting himself to the community and his aspirations and boundaries are set accordingly.
The nation in Israel is brought up with a focus on individuality and self-development. The same can be said of Russia and USA.

(COMMENT)

Yes, this is probably accurate. But in saying so, this is neither a backbone for conflict, nor the cornerstone for peace. The conflict is all about power, demands and influence. But one has to ask, have these adjacent countries really benefited their respective cultures and their constituents? And are the past results really what the Arab Palestinian and the adjacent cultures want?

IMF cuts 2014 growth forecast for Middle East - Al Arabiya ...
english.alarabiya.net/en/business/economy/2014/01/21/IMF-cuts-2014...
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has cut its growth forecast for the Arab world, despite the global economy being expected to pick up in 2014.

Middle East tension the top concern for 2014: WEF - CNBC
Middle East tension the top concern for 2014 WEF
Social tensions in the Middle East and North Africa will dominate the international agenda next year, according to new global survey.​

Merely looking at the adjacent post-War states in comparison to Israel, you can (just merely walking down the streets) see the impact. While pictures, at a distance, of the adjacent Arab States may show similarities, there are huge differences when examined more closely [gross national income (GNI)].

Israel: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) $33,930 for 2013
Jordan: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) $4,950 for 2013
Lebanon: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) $9,870 for 2013
Syria: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) $1,850 (*) for 2007
Egypt: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) $3,140 for 2013
Saudi Arabia: GNI per capita, Atlas method (current US$) 26.260 for 2013
SOURCE: World Bank - Data by Countries
​

When we examine the "leadership," we also must look at the tangibles; and ask what is it that the Arab-Palestinian wants ("aspirations and boundaries")?

As I see it the western world doesn't have the tools to perceive the structure of the ME and the mentality of its' inhabitants. Therefore it puts the arab into an uncomfortable position of dealing with untrusted mediators in the role of the western countries on one side, while actually negotiating with it's defeater and log term ideological enemy in whom they see a stepping stone to get their honor back and develop their nations towards the new tech. era.
That way they are left with no good position either way. They loose in the eyes of their people and more importantly in the eyes of their fellow colleagues- kings, presidents sheikhs and other religious leaders. Their predecessors burnt all their bridges to cooperation.

(COMMENT)

Some part of this might be true if we had the answer to the question (relative to --- "actually negotiating with it's defeater and log term ideological enemy") over what are they negotiating? The reasons that negotiations are not workable is because neither country is totally committed to the outcomes that benefit their respective populations. Even though the Arab Palestinian demands the totality of the territory formerly under mandate (less the Hashemite Kingdom), they are not acting in the best interest of their people. One glance at the GNI data demonstrates that this is not unique to just the Palestinians; but reflective of all the adjacent Arab countries. It is the culture that keeps the Arab citizenry in the economic development frame they now find themselves in.

What's left is something that we both appreciate and honor. It's not the land of course but our mutual ancestors. And thats how it could maybe work with people who rationalize more than get drawn in emotions of self worth and pity.That's ME.
But that's still a weak diplomacy because it wouldn't be implemented by Israel for its' predominance of secular set of values- the opposite of arabs.

Now when a S-L-M is the root of both arabic words for 'peace' and 'submission' they get peace buy submitting to their god and us- by getting submitted to them. It's actually the only option for them to peace. The world outside of ME unfortunately just starts to get it.

(COMMENT)

Let's not get confused here. It is not reasonable to assume that Shin-Lamedh-Mem (S-L-M) is a root that any Arab Palestinian truly believes at the cultural level. This is Jihad, and it is argued every day, even in this forum, that the Arab Palestinian has the right to resistance following the perception of having been slighted a half century ago. There is no foundation that they lay or pretense:

• Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
• Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem.
• In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.

There is no S-L-M! There is no 'peace' and 'submission' --- ! All that is talked about is the right to further aggression through Jihad and Armed Resistance.

A Hebrew's job is to be a light to the world, lead it to God by example, while their is to submit all to 'peace'. Thats actually the meaning of the phrase "Islam is the religion of peace". In our prophecies it's not a must that we get punished so that the redeemer has to fight the nations and die for us-depends on us. In the Christianity and the Islam a false messiah HAS to come and lead people astray- they see our redeemer as an antichrist.
Christianity and Islam are wired to conflict with Judaism.
When Judea comes closer to God we get much more serious and dangerous to deal with. It has to deal with archetypes and how they manifest publicly.

If i went too far here: just read a couple of suras in the Muslim book. You'll get the tone, the archetypes and instructions on how to direct a war against infidels.

Otherwise You'll just be served with lies and hypocritical politeness- another war strategy from that book.

Some maybe think that a religious person believes in social orders more rather than his holy script.

*I can go on on how easy it is to interpret the muslim book because the religion never reached a consensus and a set of concrete rules-no way around treating that book in its' literary meaning .

(COMMENT)

We must remember that nowhere in the philosophy of Shin-Lamedh-Mem (S-L-M) or the moral values of the Arab Palestinian culture that places any form of "peace" ahead of the Endorphin rush of Jihad.

Most respectfully,
R

Outstanding analysis, RoccoR

 

[Daniyel]

Hello haters and guys with some more brains and humanity.


Before I say anything You should know that an educated Hebrew won't spill any filth on his people, especially when it endangers them physically in times of "Informational warfare" that manifests in real world actions.

And it's simple: as much as I won't direct hate towards muslims abroad who shake my hand with a smile in the beginning but turn violent when hearing of my origin, I won't direct hate towards those in my land even if I think they act against me as a Hebrew or even those who have racial inclinations against arabs. But that's not to say that I want to cover for something or be called a 'self-hating jew', my only bias is my will to live.

Simply I understand what motivates both sides to express hatred, people are people- they suffer and react alike.


My opinion is relevant to both sides because I'm not Your regular Israeli-

I didn't serve in the army, actually had to go to an army-prison twice for standing this right. I've never put the uniform, shot a bullet shaved or listened to any orders. I'm a prof. musician since early years-I knew my way was around all this games from early on. I have Judaism and Islam with its’ religious texts and lived in a Christian country for a long time..

But mind You I'm not a happy hippie since being bombed each couple of years easily erases that.


I'll start expressing my opinion by stressing that I've never had any misunderstandings with arabs directly NOT ANY. But I didn't use to hang too much time in those communities. Of course negativity and suspicion is felt in times of war, specially when You hear some guys crying a praise to their god, while being bombarded themselves in the same place. Go figure- Hebrews at the same time usually pray to our ancestors' God for families and the whole nation to be saved.


Although Israel was declared as a Jewish state it's legitimacy from a religious point is divided between 2 views- one stating as sworn by king Solomon that we aren't to return in a big wave to not appease the nations, while the second takes in account the 3rd condition given to the Nations by God, not to make his people's life in the diaspora a nightmare (actually it demands to just not make it hard beyond reason). Well there're idealists who stay abroad and lead communities and there're those who saw the signs abroad and interpreted them as a warning to start preparing for the final stages-as promised in the prophecy. And that's a key point to all our relations as I see them, more on this later..


While the point I've mentioned above are key to understand such a religious place, the state of Israel established itself as a high developed technologic oasis with secular values. The economic and social attitude play the biggest role. And here I must emphasize on a matter that Anti-Israeli trolls lie (let's be naïve- because of lack of info) daily:

against all logic and lies- arabs are not discriminated anyhow! Say what You want, better check it Yourself- ISRAELI ARABS IS THE MOST PRIVILLEGED SECTOR OF COMMUNITY.

For example they are not obliged to pay the land tax and social security like every citizen, they have more social privileges than any holocaust survival to say the least. That's not to say that the state lacks budget in any way. In order to understand it, all You have to do is travel by some small arab village and compare the houses of an average Arabic family and the apartments of some jewish engineer or a doctor in the city. And of course not to forget- arabs are well represented in the highest-paid jobs: doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, bank workers etc. Of course it would be a mistake not to mention construction industry which is practically monopolized.


All this while the average Israeli has less and less worth for the salary, has to pay fully for education, social services and doesn’t even think to own an apartment before reaching 35 (which will becme his own only in 20-30 yrs). By the way each Israeli jewish family has a right to lease a piece of land for a limited amount of 50 years only, before renewing the permit. And I’m not even mentioning the Hebrew families that lived there even before the state.

It’s important to mention that the orthodox communities live in closed environments among themselves and mainly with the help of donations. As the arabs they have big families but get mistreated by the left (Gaza sympathizers) wing being falsely portrayed as “non-working who only study and pray”, thus the only state money they are willing to take is for Yeshivas- religious intern schools.


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to shove You some extreme situation, Israel was called a ‘start-up nation’ for a reason- it’s a wonderful place if You’re young and want to work in the field of technology, everything else suffers from mediocrity. But from the beginning an average arab has much more financial support so that only If you get an inheritance there’s a fair chance initially. And with all of that do the arab parents still send their youngest children in tore dirty clothes to clean widescreens of sopping by cars on the highways?

UNFORTUNATELY YES! Do many of them look exactly like everyone, speak Hebrew with barely no accent and lead a healthy social life as equals? I’M HAPPY THEY DO.


However now I’ll get to the Zionsm problem. Zion is one among names of Jerusalem, the symbol of our people, that kept many generations in the diaspora ‘alive’ as a nation. The hope to see Zion again tied people tightly locally and between further communities during hard times which were few. There’s even a sentence in a prayer ‘If I forget You Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten”.


But Zionism led by Herzel was and is an extremely anti jewish political movement which merely uses the Hebrew people as a reason to dabble in world-geo-politics and some believe, to play religious games…It’s laws are extremely foreign to the culture as the leaders

who decide for the nation. It was so in the beginning, it’s so now.

I’m not an orthodox (although studied in religious school), as most of Israelis I’m secular celebrating the holidays, fasts and pray sometimes, but I’m sorry call it however You like- the thing the Zionists declared as a jewish state has nothing to do with decent life as a Hebrew. It doesn’t care for our laws, it puts obstacles in the way hard working orthodox- who are the loyal keepers of our culture and the covenant- those values upon which this state was declared- “as envisioned by our prophets’. Especially being declared by B. Gurion- it was in my view it was an evil sarcasm, In my view it was designed so that a Hebrew man woman woul loose their connection to the roots and spirituality thus making them a naïve pawn in the game of western nations. Pay attention I wrote “HEBREW man’- not the zionist state.


The boldest examples are-

1.Not letting the Hebrew to go up the Temple Mount while letting the muslims play soccer in our holiest of places (fro which they like to throw rocks at the praying).

2. Making a Hebrew soldier who swore in Jerusalem to evict his own people out of their home by force, only to give that land to sworn enemies.


In perspective I see the rove of the state as a key player in the false end times theater.

Saying this I surely seem like that conspiracy freak, well I am to a point. It’s elementary to accept that people of high ranks meet to discuss and decide on the key issues. Its elementary to see that there’s an agenda to make it seem as if the prophecies the main 3 religions for the end times are fulfilling these days- a thin that makes them all clash finally.

And lastly those who have eyes can surely read “Morals and Dogma” by Albert Pike…


So of course the haters among You will blindly choose what they prefer to see and dismiss anything slightly conflicting to his/her propaganda. My intent was merely to express my self in purely self-exploratory pursue. All the arguments surrounding the internet on this topic are repeated endlessly in propaganda wars over young, still unformed minds that lack the ability to think critically for themselves. What’s even more prevalent is the unoriginality in them- arguments and techniques copied directly from Goebbels, Russian secret service and alike.

But that’s for the rest of the world who live in a totally different dimension to be entertained in the illusion of self worth and high morale.

I won’t even try to dispute that nonsense, all that Talmud citations are beyond ridiculous. I think people around the world got familiar with the ways of ‘INTERNET JIHAD’ and the tendencies to respond in a certain way to cutting facts/evidence. People here don’t even get bothered too much, we know who we deal with and what’s in the arsenal. And as further the enemy goes the more the prophecies get fulfilled on both sides- the story gets tighter and 3 traditions (basically 1 and 2 variations of the first) get into a final collision. And the most interesting thing is that each is wating for it’s redeemer, while the 2 copied versions insist that Hebrew people’s messiah is going to be a false one, while waiting for the 2nd one they just don’t know that our prophets promised us 2 redeemers.

p.s. How can anybody believe the nonsense of the "P"alestinian nation when it's inhabitants don't even have the first letter to pronounce it correctly? It's beyond naïve.

Rylah.

Very Interesting but isn't it a shame that you Assinated your own Prime Minister Mr RABIN.......and all carry collective Guilt for this one act.

To blame an entire nation for murder that is quite exaggerated don't you think? I'm not talking about the fact it is the majority that elected him in the first place.

I just think it was Bad for Israel and Jews Period, Daniel,this act demeaned your nation and people that's all..steve

It's like I'd blame you for the murder of Kenneddy and its consequences over the American society, irrelevant considering the fact everyone having their own opinion and 99.99% of the Israelis found out it's a despicable acts regardless of the consequences it bares, you got to be able to address individuals for what they are and in this case - the sane 99.99%.
Now if we talk about the consequences for the nation - maybe, it did serve a good lesson for generations to come, at least.
With that being said we can discuss political consequences - as a nation - Rabin wasn't a soft person at all, I happened to meet someone who knew him long before he was elected in his days at their military service.
I'm not talking about the Palestinian side (agreement requires two sides) and undoubtedly Arafat was a terrible choice for trustworthy agreement partner BUT he had the Palestinians united unlike today where we faces Hamas and the PA - that trait is probably the first characteristic of a strong leader - having the Israelis separated but still going for an agreement could probably resulted with another state called Judea by now.
Rabin caused a rift in Israel - not the type of rift for even a short term agreement could last. I already talked about it in a different thread - the biggest treat for even the most peaceful a d wealthiest state(and society ) is a social rift, it happened in America(1861), caused WW2, and happens as you read these lines in Iraq and Syria, it is the source of all conflicts a state could face and it multiplied by forms of ethnicity, economy, and politics.
It is a fact Rabin wasn't the great leader fresh Israel needed back then even WITHOUT the Palestinians.
Let me make myself very clear on this issue - I'm completely against the murder of Rabin, violence is only to be used when there is no other way at all (Hamas's tyrannical dictatorship for instance ) and even MUST be used in such tragic cases, but prior to that all other non violent ways must be exhausted IMHO.
Sadly the murder of Rabin is simply a weapon of propaganda as Rylah kindly said, Mostly because the Palestinians have never signed any sort of progress except with him which later they broke.
I Hope you manage to see my perspective here, give it a thought.

 

[Daniyel]

...find it despicable acts...*

 

[ForeverYoung436]

...find it despicable acts...*

While I thanked Daniyel in the past for serving in the IDF, I have to thank you too rylah for standing up for your principals and not serving, which caused you to go to jail twice. People in Israel look at you cross-eyed if you did not serve. How were you able to get thru that? Did you not serve because you disapprove of Israel's policies?

 

[flacaltenn]

Welcome to USMB Rylah.. I think your comments and opinions show how complex Israeli public opinion is and how stereotypes are not really useful.

Always great to have 1st hand thoughts from the Holy Land.. However, I did not see a reason in your thoughts WHY religious opinion is valuable when it comes to coexistance and mutual Arab-Israeli cooperation. CERTAINLY there are many reasons why Palestinians would benefit from normalized economic and security relations with Israel..

Just like the "privileged" Arab residents that you write about..

Thank You for the the welcome.

First of all if You want a cooperation You should learn what motivates Your partner and what is the common ground.

The leaders of the arab world are mainly religious people, who lead nations with a collective cultured set of values. It means that an arab usually first thinks about how he is presenting himself to the community and his aspirations and boundaries are set accordingly.
The nation in Israel is brought up with a focus on individuality and self-development. The same can be said of Russia and USA.

As I see it the western world doesn't have the tools to perceive the structure of the ME and the mentality of its' inhabitants. Therefore it puts the arab into an uncomfortable position of dealing with untrusted mediators in the role of the western countries on one side, while actually negotiating with it's defeater and log term ideological enemy in whom they see a stepping stone to get their honor back and develop their nations towards the new tech. era.
That way they are left with no good position either way. They loose in the eyes of their people and more importantly in the eyes of their fellow colleagues- kings, presidents sheikhs and other religious leaders. Their predecessors burnt all their bridges to cooperation.

What's left is something that we both appreciate and honor. It's not the land of course but our mutual ancestors. And thats how it could maybe work with people who rationalize more than get drawn in emotions of self worth and pity.That's ME.
But that's still a weak diplomacy because it wouldn't be implemented by Israel for its' predominance of secular set of values- the opposite of arabs.

Now when a S-L-M is the root of both arabic words for 'peace' and 'submission' they get peace buy submitting to their god and us- by getting submitted to them. It's actually the only option for them to peace. The world outside of ME unfortunately just starts to get it.

A Hebrew's job is to be a light to the world, lead it to God by example, while their is to submit all to 'peace'. Thats actually the meaning of the phrase "Islam is the religion of peace". In our prophecies it's not a must that we get punished so that the redeemer has to fight the nations and die for us-depends on us. In the Christianity and the Islam a false messiah HAS to come and lead people astray- they see our redeemer as an antichrist.
Christianity and Islam are wired to conflict with Judaism.
When Judea comes closer to God we get much more serious and dangerous to deal with. It has to deal with archetypes and how they manifest publicly.

If i went too far here: just read a couple of suras in the Muslim book. You'll get the tone, the archetypes and instructions on how to direct a war against infidels.

Otherwise You'll just be served with lies and hypocritical politeness- another war strategy from that book.

Some maybe think that a religious person believes in social orders more rather than his holy script.

*I can go on on how easy it is to interpret the muslim book because the religion never reached a consensus and a set of concrete rules-no way around treating that book in its' literary meaning .

Excellent focus on the value differences that most in West can never understand. What folks DO understand is the resulting differences in economic viability, liberty to speak and think, and infrastructure investments.

In an assimilation -- you can keep your culture. But your values may not match the expected norm. Yet -- you are very happy to have 1st class hospitals and public services and open elections if that is all that is ask of you when changing your "values" priorities. Who wouldn't?

That's why I believe there should be less emphasis on land and development and use of the land and fences -- and MORE emphasis on economic cooperation and mutual security. A Palestinian state wouldn't last a decade without protection from radicalization or outright invasion or or without a vibrant commerce. So any "peace solution" ought to focus on MUTUAL cooperation, not separation.

OTH -- the fact that your values list "anti-zionist" (or military objector) as a high personal priority seems to tell me that you are NOT invested in KEEPING all that "cultural secular" freedoms alive and viable. You need to realize that there is an equally UN-NAMED movement -- call it Paleonism vs Zionism -- that is just as adamant about their ancient religious claims to the territory.. It's just Zionism practiced by antagonistic distant cousins..

 

[Daniyel]

...find it despicable acts...*

While I thanked Daniyel in the past for serving in the IDF, I have to thank you too rylah for standing up for your principals and not serving, which caused you to go to jail twice. People in Israel look at you cross-eyed if you did not serve. How were you able to get thru that? Did you not serve because you disapprove of Israel's policies?

Sometimes serious athletes ,models, and artists can apply for an exempt to be able to focus on their demanding careers..dunno about Rylah thou.

 

[rylah]

...find it despicable acts...*

While I thanked Daniyel in the past for serving in the IDF, I have to thank you too rylah for standing up for your principals and not serving, which caused you to go to jail twice. People in Israel look at you cross-eyed if you did not serve. How were you able to get thru that? Did you not serve because you disapprove of Israel's policies?

Well...I think me not serving was an unconscious dislike of fake authority, in the most childish way I was a creative creature, full of imagination and solid ideals- let's hear You commanding me to take part in killing.
I DON'T JUDGE, and unfortunately I know well the rush of an unconscious savage. I think given the circumstances every person thinks about hurting the other. Well if You give me a gun, put under pressure...well it's like wild sex- You loose Yourself to the flow...Just imagine what would that do to Your Soul- To kill a human being or an animal actually?
And really I was practicing like 10 hours a day, there was a better chance to make me kill by taking me away from my studio/

 

[rylah]

[QUOTE="flacaltenn, post: 11576482, member: 30473"
Excellent focus on the value differences that most in West can never understand. What folks DO understand is the resulting differences in economic viability, liberty to speak and think, and infrastructure investments.

In an assimilation -- you can keep your culture. But your values may not match the expected norm. Yet -- you are very happy to have 1st class hospitals and public services and open elections if that is all that is ask of you when changing your "values" priorities. Who wouldn't?

That's why I believe there should be less emphasis on land and development and use of the land and fences -- and MORE emphasis on economic cooperation and mutual security. A Palestinian state wouldn't last a decade without protection from radicalization or outright invasion or or without a vibrant commerce. So any "peace solution" ought to focus on MUTUAL cooperation, not separation.

OTH -- the fact that your values list "anti-zionist" (or military objector) as a high personal priority seems to tell me that you are NOT invested in KEEPING all that "cultural secular" freedoms alive and viable. You need to realize that there is an equally UN-NAMED movement -- call it Paleonism vs Zionism -- that is just as adamant about their ancient religious claims to the territory.. It's just Zionism practiced by antagonistic distant cousins..

.

Who wouldn't really assimilate? Someone who sees You as weak.
Investing in mutual security and economics is a way of hope that Europeans have,
but today muslims' values are more vividly actualized than European's or USA's.
So that reaching a helping hand (really unfortunately) is a show of submission

 

[flacaltenn]

Welcome to USMB Rylah.. I think your comments and opinions show how complex Israeli public opinion is and how stereotypes are not really useful.

Always great to have 1st hand thoughts from the Holy Land.. However, I did not see a reason in your thoughts WHY religious opinion is valuable when it comes to coexistance and mutual Arab-Israeli cooperation. CERTAINLY there are many reasons why Palestinians would benefit from normalized economic and security relations with Israel..

Just like the "privileged" Arab residents that you write about..

Thank You for the the welcome.

First of all if You want a cooperation You should learn what motivates Your partner and what is the common ground.

The leaders of the arab world are mainly religious people, who lead nations with a collective cultured set of values. It means that an arab usually first thinks about how he is presenting himself to the community and his aspirations and boundaries are set accordingly.
The nation in Israel is brought up with a focus on individuality and self-development. The same can be said of Russia and USA.

As I see it the western world doesn't have the tools to perceive the structure of the ME and the mentality of its' inhabitants. Therefore it puts the arab into an uncomfortable position of dealing with untrusted mediators in the role of the western countries on one side, while actually negotiating with it's defeater and log term ideological enemy in whom they see a stepping stone to get their honor back and develop their nations towards the new tech. era.
That way they are left with no good position either way. They loose in the eyes of their people and more importantly in the eyes of their fellow colleagues- kings, presidents sheikhs and other religious leaders. Their predecessors burnt all their bridges to cooperation.

What's left is something that we both appreciate and honor. It's not the land of course but our mutual ancestors. And thats how it could maybe work with people who rationalize more than get drawn in emotions of self worth and pity.That's ME.
But that's still a weak diplomacy because it wouldn't be implemented by Israel for its' predominance of secular set of values- the opposite of arabs.

Now when a S-L-M is the root of both arabic words for 'peace' and 'submission' they get peace buy submitting to their god and us- by getting submitted to them. It's actually the only option for them to peace. The world outside of ME unfortunately just starts to get it.

A Hebrew's job is to be a light to the world, lead it to God by example, while their is to submit all to 'peace'. Thats actually the meaning of the phrase "Islam is the religion of peace". In our prophecies it's not a must that we get punished so that the redeemer has to fight the nations and die for us-depends on us. In the Christianity and the Islam a false messiah HAS to come and lead people astray- they see our redeemer as an antichrist.
Christianity and Islam are wired to conflict with Judaism.
When Judea comes closer to God we get much more serious and dangerous to deal with. It has to deal with archetypes and how they manifest publicly.

If i went too far here: just read a couple of suras in the Muslim book. You'll get the tone, the archetypes and instructions on how to direct a war against infidels.

Otherwise You'll just be served with lies and hypocritical politeness- another war strategy from that book.

Some maybe think that a religious person believes in social orders more rather than his holy script.

*I can go on on how easy it is to interpret the muslim book because the religion never reached a consensus and a set of concrete rules-no way around treating that book in its' literary meaning .

Excellent focus on the value differences that most in West can never understand. What folks DO understand is the resulting differences in economic viability, liberty to speak and think, and infrastructure investments.

In an assimilation -- you can keep your culture. But your values may not match the expected norm. Yet -- you are very happy to have 1st class hospitals and public services and open elections if that is all that is ask of you when changing your "values" priorities. Who wouldn't?

That's why I believe there should be less emphasis on land and development and use of the land and fences -- and MORE emphasis on economic cooperation and mutual security. A Palestinian state wouldn't last a decade without protection from radicalization or outright invasion. So any "peace solution" ought to focus on MUTUAL cooperation, not separation.

[QUOTE="flacaltenn, post: 11576482, member: 30473"
Excellent focus on the value differences that most in West can never understand. What folks DO understand is the resulting differences in economic viability, liberty to speak and think, and infrastructure investments.

In an assimilation -- you can keep your culture. But your values may not match the expected norm. Yet -- you are very happy to have 1st class hospitals and public services and open elections if that is all that is ask of you when changing your "values" priorities. Who wouldn't?

That's why I believe there should be less emphasis on land and development and use of the land and fences -- and MORE emphasis on economic cooperation and mutual security. A Palestinian state wouldn't last a decade without protection from radicalization or outright invasion or or without a vibrant commerce. So any "peace solution" ought to focus on MUTUAL cooperation, not separation.

OTH -- the fact that your values list "anti-zionist" (or military objector) as a high personal priority seems to tell me that you are NOT invested in KEEPING all that "cultural secular" freedoms alive and viable. You need to realize that there is an equally UN-NAMED movement -- call it Paleonism vs Zionism -- that is just as adamant about their ancient religious claims to the territory.. It's just Zionism practiced by antagonistic distant cousins..

.

Who wouldn't really assimilate? Someone who sees You as weak.
Investing in mutual security and economics is a way of hope that Europeans have,
but today muslims' values are more vividly actualized than European's or USA's.
So that reaching a helping hand (really unfortunately) is a show of submission

Does Saudi now feel in submission by admitting they have talked to Israel about "mutual security" interests? Survival is more important than macho pride if you have anything to protect. Granted ---- there are Arab cultures that have nothing really to lose, and don't value infrastructure, commerce, maybe even higher education.. THEY can refuse to discuss mutual agreements on trade and security.

A new Pali state would be a valuable thing to lose overnight to some savages like ISIS (who have even LESS to lose) . I think Abbas and other Pali leaders would "submit" to helping hands if offered.. Even from Israel.. Especially if Jordan wanted to reconsider it's role on the West Bank..

 

[RoccoR]

rylah, flacaltenn, et al,

The idea of "value" is all about what is good, desirable, and important (a measure of energy - how much work will one put in to achieve s specific tangible condition is the manner in which we measure "value"). Whereas "assimilation" is a theory about the "resemblance" and "acceptance" of one constituent to those of another group (round pegs in round holes --- square pegs in square holes). They (value and assimilation) are not the same either socially, culturally, scientifically, politically, or economically. While the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has characteristics that can be described as having value or conditions that foster assimilation, they are not inherent properties of an infrastructure.

"Mutual cooperation" and "conflict" do have a direct relationship. They are on the same philosophical continuum; but at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[QUOTE="flacaltenn, post: 11576482, member: 30473"
Excellent focus on the value differences that most in West can never understand. What folks DO understand is the resulting differences in economic viability, liberty to speak and think, and infrastructure investments.

In an assimilation -- you can keep your culture. But your values may not match the expected norm. Yet -- you are very happy to have 1st class hospitals and public services and open elections if that is all that is ask of you when changing your "values" priorities. Who wouldn't?

That's why I believe there should be less emphasis on land and development and use of the land and fences -- and MORE emphasis on economic cooperation and mutual security. A Palestinian state wouldn't last a decade without protection from radicalization or outright invasion or or without a vibrant commerce. So any "peace solution" ought to focus on MUTUAL cooperation, not separation.

OTH -- the fact that your values list "anti-zionist" (or military objector) as a high personal priority seems to tell me that you are NOT invested in KEEPING all that "cultural secular" freedoms alive and viable. You need to realize that there is an equally UN-NAMED movement -- call it Paleonism vs Zionism -- that is just as adamant about their ancient religious claims to the territory.. It's just Zionism practiced by antagonistic distant cousins..

.

Who wouldn't really assimilate? Someone who sees You as weak.
Investing in mutual security and economics is a way of hope that Europeans have,
but today muslims' values are more vividly actualized than European's or USA's.
So that reaching a helping hand (really unfortunately) is a show of submission

(PROLOG in THOUGHT)

"How the Strength of all Principalities Should be Measured"
Chapter X --- The Prince --- Niccolo Machiavelli
(NOTE: Machiavelli is to political conflict as Sun Tzu is to military conflict.
While Sun Tzu is more often quoted, the concepts behind Machiavelli have
proven timeless in that any nation can win nearly every military engagement
(alla Sun Tzu) and still lose politically (to the weaknesses outline by Machiavelli).

In analyzing the qualities of these principalities, another consideration must be discussed;
that is, whether the prince has so much power that he can, if necessary, stand on his own,
or whether he always needs the protection of others.

(NOTE: Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980) once said that "Hell is other people."
In the case of Israel and the Arab Palestinian, nothing could be more applicable.)

The first reason that others arouse negative feelings in us is that they
represent potential obstacles to our freedom.​

(COMMENT)

We speak of "Muslims' Values" in the simplest of context. But do we ever really say what they are? No! It is too esoteric (ideas preserved or understood by a small group). One cannot readily assimilate or absorb ground on which to negotiate if the opposite number says one thing (the peace of Islam) and actually follows the concepts of something entirely different (Trial by Combat). One cannot use modern philosophy to negotiate justice oriented terms with a culture so alien that beheadings, stoning, the subjugation of the weaker sex, and Jihad, are considered morally acceptable to the point that they televise the activity to attain "moral impacts" and "acceptance" --- deriving such value as they consider acceptable and important.

So, in a lose fitting way, our friend "rylah" (as are a number of other pro-Palestinians) is (in a practical sense) correct in the implication that there is going to be an obstacle in negotiations due in part to the inability for either side to accept "assimilation" of the other. Either little matches culturally, or the moral value systems are incompatible.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

That is not very astute. The differences between the Boers and the Bantu (in the South African sense) were much greater than between Jews and the Christian and Muslim Palestinians. They worked it out. Bombs are no longer going off in shopping centers, court houses are no longer being bombed and the Boers are not doing badly if not as well as when they ruled the roost. I have close friends that are Boers (I spent some time in Pretoria). I keep up with them on Facebook, I see them partying, barbecuing, camping in the bush (one of their pastimes) and doing what they have always done. The problem is this "Jewish State" thing (as was the White/European state thing) As long as the Jews insist that it has to be a "Jewish State" it excludes the non-Jews and no solution is possible.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

"Astute" or not, it is still an attempt by the Majority (Arab) to subjugate the Minority (Jewish) by using a reason (or excuse) given in justification of a course of action (Jihad) that is not the real reason behind their barbarity (daily activity taken against the Jewish State).

This observation has no merit -- it does not have any serious purpose (other than sly propaganda implications) or value --- in a word, it is frivolous in nature. There are Arab-Israeli citizens [1,730,000 (20.7% as of 2014)]; they do live, work and play together.

That is not very astute. The differences between the Boers and the Bantu (in the South African sense) were much greater than between Jews and the Christian and Muslim Palestinians. They worked it out. Bombs are no longer going off in shopping centers, court houses are no longer being bombed and the Boers are not doing badly if not as well as when they ruled the roost. I have close friends that are Boers (I spent some time in Pretoria). I keep up with them on Facebook, I see them partying, barbecuing, camping in the bush (one of their pastimes) and doing what they have always done. The problem is this "Jewish State" thing (as was the White/European state thing) As long as the Jews insist that it has to be a "Jewish State" it excludes the non-Jews and no solution is possible.

(PREFACE)

EXCERPT: Part I - Section "B" - Steps Preparatory to Independence, UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (II)

On its arrival in Palestine the Commission shall proceed to carry out measures for the establishment of the frontiers of the Arab and Jewish States and the City of Jerusalem in accordance with the general lines of the recommendations of the General Assembly on the partition of Palestine. Nevertheless, the boundaries as described in part II of this plan are to be modified in such a way that village areas as a rule will not be divided by state boundaries unless pressing reasons make that necessary.

The Commission, after consultation with the democratic parties and other public organizations of The Arab and Jewish States, shall select and establish in each State as rapidly as possible a Provisional Council of Government. The activities of both the Arab and Jewish Provisional Councils of Government shall be carried out under the general direction of the Commission.
​

"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." SOURCE: Part I - Paragraph 3c, First Special Report to the Security Council: The Problem of Security in Palestine

(COMMENT)

Point that needs to be remembered:

• Israel can NOT be described as you put it: "As long as the Jews insist that it has to be a "Jewish State" it excludes the non-Jews and no solution is possible."
• In 2014, 75% of the total Jewish population were "Sabras" - born in Israel - compared with just a 35% native-born population at Israel's independence in 1948. 38.6% of the Jewish population are Israeli-born to at least one parent who was also Israeli-born.

​

Whatever the reason for a negative solution on the part of the pro-Palestinian, the "exclusion of non-Jews" simply cannot be one of them. It isa frivolous complaint; with no basis in fact.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[theliq]

theliq

You know what's funny? I know for sure that i'm against the machine of zionism. But guys like You're who actually create the so called "zio terrorists". It's because of arrogant people like You who treat every Hebrew the same. YOU CAN"T STAND IT WHEN A JEW IS ANTI_ZIONISM-you just never been programmed to deal with that.
I've never shot a bullet in my life and went to jail twice not to serve in the IDF. So how am I a terrorist? By having my own opinion? Well sorry Comrade.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT A "SHADOW" IS IN PSYCHOLOGY?

I'd use the Charles Manson attitude- YOU LOVE THE IDF AND ZIONISM!
It's Your daddy and mommy, otherwise how would You accept Yourself when they're gone? You see the filthiest jew is Your true shadow chuch.

Read some C.G. Jung.

..Jews created Zionism not "Very Arrogant people like me"LOL.....I know a lot of Jews that are not Zionists and some Anti-Zionists,so of course I can stand that situation,you fool..........I have never used the term filthy Jew because it is merely a stereotype given to Jews throughout history culminating in the banal Gobbels and his Nazi propaganda machine,mind you some Jews and the Jewish possee on here love to degrade Palestinians with the same terminology.

The only SHADOW I see here is you.....A GHASTLY NON-DISCRIPT GREY SHADOW.....you know not the minute nor the hour

 

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

"Astute" or not, it is still an attempt by the Majority (Arab) to subjugate the Minority (Jewish) by using a reason (or excuse) given in justification of a course of action (Jihad) that is not the real reason behind their barbarity (daily activity taken against the Jewish State).

This observation has no merit -- it does not have any serious purpose (other than sly propaganda implications) or value --- in a word, it is frivolous in nature. There are Arab-Israeli citizens [1,730,000 (20.7% as of 2014)]; they do live, work and play together.

That is not very astute. The differences between the Boers and the Bantu (in the South African sense) were much greater than between Jews and the Christian and Muslim Palestinians. They worked it out. Bombs are no longer going off in shopping centers, court houses are no longer being bombed and the Boers are not doing badly if not as well as when they ruled the roost. I have close friends that are Boers (I spent some time in Pretoria). I keep up with them on Facebook, I see them partying, barbecuing, camping in the bush (one of their pastimes) and doing what they have always done. The problem is this "Jewish State" thing (as was the White/European state thing) As long as the Jews insist that it has to be a "Jewish State" it excludes the non-Jews and no solution is possible.

(PREFACE)

EXCERPT: Part I - Section "B" - Steps Preparatory to Independence, UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (II)

On its arrival in Palestine the Commission shall proceed to carry out measures for the establishment of the frontiers of the Arab and Jewish States and the City of Jerusalem in accordance with the general lines of the recommendations of the General Assembly on the partition of Palestine. Nevertheless, the boundaries as described in part II of this plan are to be modified in such a way that village areas as a rule will not be divided by state boundaries unless pressing reasons make that necessary.

The Commission, after consultation with the democratic parties and other public organizations of The Arab and Jewish States, shall select and establish in each State as rapidly as possible a Provisional Council of Government. The activities of both the Arab and Jewish Provisional Councils of Government shall be carried out under the general direction of the Commission.
​

"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." SOURCE: Part I - Paragraph 3c, First Special Report to the Security Council: The Problem of Security in Palestine

(COMMENT)

Point that needs to be remembered:

• Israel can NOT be described as you put it: "As long as the Jews insist that it has to be a "Jewish State" it excludes the non-Jews and no solution is possible."
• In 2014, 75% of the total Jewish population were "Sabras" - born in Israel - compared with just a 35% native-born population at Israel's independence in 1948. 38.6% of the Jewish population are Israeli-born to at least one parent who was also Israeli-born.

View attachment 42438
​

Whatever the reason for a negative solution on the part of the pro-Palestinian, the "exclusion of non-Jews" simply cannot be one of them. It isa frivolous complaint; with no basis in fact.

Most Respectfully,
R

It's much simpler than that Rocco. It is Christians and Muslims of Palestine that were dispossessed by Europeans that do not want to be ruled by European settlers or their descendants. 100% of the Boers were born in South Africa, by the way.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

This is more nonsense.

It's much simpler than that Rocco. It is Christians and Muslims of Palestine that were dispossessed by Europeans that do not want to be ruled by European settlers or their descendants. 100% of the Boers were born in South Africa, by the way.

(COMMENT)

Everyone is a descendant.

The center for the development and expansion of the species is NOT the Middle East. We are all descendants from Africa. The Boers are 100% descendants of 18th Century Dutch speaking settlers from Europe.

If I were you, I would drop this line of thought.

What the Arab Palestinian wants has nothing to do with European Settlers. The entire history of our species is a story of migration. This is just a pretext to justify power hungry Arabs grab for territorial control. It has nothing to do with the decisions of the 20th Century to establish a safe haven for the Jewish Culture. It is pure rubbish masquerading as some form of justification with intellectual content.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

This is more nonsense.

It's much simpler than that Rocco. It is Christians and Muslims of Palestine that were dispossessed by Europeans that do not want to be ruled by European settlers or their descendants. 100% of the Boers were born in South Africa, by the way.

(COMMENT)

Everyone is a descendant.

The center for the development and expansion of the species is NOT the Middle East. We are all descendants from Africa. The Boers are 100% descendants of 18th Century Dutch speaking settlers from Europe.

If I were you, I would drop this line of thought.

What the Arab Palestinian wants has nothing to do with European Settlers. The entire history of our species is a story of migration. This is just a pretext to justify power hungry Arabs grab for territorial control. It has nothing to do with the decisions of the 20th Century to establish a safe haven for the Jewish Culture. It is pure rubbish masquerading as some form of justification with intellectual content.

Most Respectfully,
R

Isn't more a power hungry European Jew grab for territorial control of a land that was inhabited by Christians and Muslims?

 

[SAYIT]

You need to elucidate better in your prose...steve

You need to drink less or ask your doc to increase your meds. You remain, as always, the dimmest poster ever to squat on these boards (and I mean that with all due respect).