Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[Cecilie1200]

Or is it that only atheists should have any influence over how our nation is governed? Everyone else should sit down and shut up?

Where the right comes up with these inane inferences will forever be a mystery.

Where has anyone said anything about only ‘atheists’ having the only influence over how our nation is governed?

Process of elimination, fucktard. If you deny religious people any influence over governance, on the grounds that religion has no place being represented, who's left?

Does it bother you that there are third-graders with better logic skills than you?

 

[AnnieInMexico]

Abortion is not a Christian thing only. Christian can oppose abortion and Christians can also be pro choice. Ditto for Jews and Buddhists and Atheists. The only thing unique to Christians is the practice of Christianity.

The First Amendment protects Christians and Atheists alike. Each has the right to request his or her preferences be honored, and each can be overruled by the majorty. But, short of violating the rights of another, neither may have their unalienable rights to believe, think, speak, or act infringed by the government.

The confusion comes in the fact that because there are more Christians than any other group throughout our national history, Christian influence is far more likely to be prevalent in our institutions, culture, symbols, music, architecture, mores, and values than will any other group. That is as it should be. It was primarily Christians who founded, explored, settled, and set up the institutions in this country. The people with unalienable rights protected are free to form whatever sort of society they wish to have, and for most of American history, the people have preferred a society influenced by Chrisitian values and conduct for the most part.

If you go to Japan, you will find very little Christian influence there but the culture will be uniquely Japanese. Likewise in Tibet you will see mosques and Buddhist temples, but almost no Christian influence at all.

America being a primarily Christian nation is not an evil thing. It is a good thing because it affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

There really isn't any confusion here. Abortion, gay rights, etc., those are indeed Christian things. Jews, atheists, Buddhists... they are not out there with signs screaming, "Murder!" Everyone else has varying beliefs. Yes, there are many Christians today who are pro choice, not so much years ago when the laws were not for pro choice.

Christians say abortion is murder. No, it's not. A clump of cells is not a person, it's a potential person. What is a Christian's response typically? It has a soul. A soul most certainly is a Christian concept.

I don't care about the music, the culture, etc. I care about the laws. It wasn't Buddhists preventing atheists from running for office. It wasn't the Wiccans, it wasn't the Jews. It was the Christians. It was the Christians literally forcing (or death) their beliefs on the Native Americans. Had it not been for that you might be wearing moccasins right now instead of the shoes on your feet. Small children were taken from their homes, their family, forced into assimilation, forced to learn the Christian ways of doing things. (As I recall, might be wrong, I want to say mostly Baptists did that.) Eventually the Native American children were sent home and told to assimilate their family to the white Christian man ways of living life. ... or death.

THAT is how Christianity became so popular.

Archaeology of the Phoenix Indian School

Untitled Document

An Indian Boarding School Photo Gallery

Understand, this school is but one example and it was run by Christians.

Look, I am not one to beat Christians over the head for what Christianity did a gazillion years ago. I'm referring to the assimilation process in the last 100 years. THAT is a big reason why the Native American culture really doesn't have a great culture anymore. So yes, there are mostly Christians but there is more to it than a 'majority' issue.

How does the majority of people being Christian....

affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

??? What in the world does being Christian have to do with the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Those who would like to see Christianity diminished, hidden, sent to the back of the bus, should they succeed, I think will not like the country they will then have.

Do you have ANY idea at all how many people, no... how many Christians currently say that about atheism or anything else non Christian? Once again, welcome to my world.

 

[AnnieInMexico]

That's right, because we all know it's WRONG to learn from our mistakes, don't we?

Did or did not the Nazis claim it was okay to violate the rights of Jews based upon alleged past *crimes* committed by the Jews?

You missed the point entirely. This is basic high school debate.

From asswipes who claim that Christians should not be allowed to teach, or to adhere to their faith in public, or allow their faith to influence them in any way, shape or form in the commission of their work as elected officials. From retards who attempt to subvert, twist and alter the Constitution in order to justify discrimination against Christians, while at the same time promoting their own skewed world order....

So we get it from you.

Welcome to the world of atheism.

 

[Dr Grump]

Or is it that only atheists should have any influence over how our nation is governed? Everyone else should sit down and shut up?

Where the right comes up with these inane inferences will forever be a mystery.

Where has anyone said anything about only ‘atheists’ having the only influence over how our nation is governed?

Process of elimination, fucktard. If you deny religious people any influence over governance, on the grounds that religion has no place being represented, who's left?

Does it bother you that there are third-graders with better logic skills than you?

Go to church. Pray to your god. Nobody is stopping you. But, please, don't teach my kids your religion in our school. They're not interested. Teach them maths, english, science, history, geography.

As for governance, why does it even need to be there. Laws should not take into count a person's religion anyway. Another red herring....

 

[Foxfyre]

Abortion is not a Christian thing only. Christian can oppose abortion and Christians can also be pro choice. Ditto for Jews and Buddhists and Atheists. The only thing unique to Christians is the practice of Christianity.

The First Amendment protects Christians and Atheists alike. Each has the right to request his or her preferences be honored, and each can be overruled by the majorty. But, short of violating the rights of another, neither may have their unalienable rights to believe, think, speak, or act infringed by the government.

The confusion comes in the fact that because there are more Christians than any other group throughout our national history, Christian influence is far more likely to be prevalent in our institutions, culture, symbols, music, architecture, mores, and values than will any other group. That is as it should be. It was primarily Christians who founded, explored, settled, and set up the institutions in this country. The people with unalienable rights protected are free to form whatever sort of society they wish to have, and for most of American history, the people have preferred a society influenced by Chrisitian values and conduct for the most part.

If you go to Japan, you will find very little Christian influence there but the culture will be uniquely Japanese. Likewise in Tibet you will see mosques and Buddhist temples, but almost no Christian influence at all.

America being a primarily Christian nation is not an evil thing. It is a good thing because it affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

There really isn't any confusion here. Abortion, gay rights, etc., those are indeed Christian things. Jews, atheists, Buddhists... they are not out there with signs screaming, "Murder!" Everyone else has varying beliefs. Yes, there are many Christians today who are pro choice, not so much years ago when the laws were not for pro choice.

Christians say abortion is murder. No, it's not. A clump of cells is not a person, it's a potential person. What is a Christian's response typically? It has a soul. A soul most certainly is a Christian concept.

I don't care about the music, the culture, etc. I care about the laws. It wasn't Buddhists preventing atheists from running for office. It wasn't the Wiccans, it wasn't the Jews. It was the Christians. It was the Christians literally forcing (or death) their beliefs on the Native Americans. Had it not been for that you might be wearing moccasins right now instead of the shoes on your feet. Small children were taken from their homes, their family, forced into assimilation, forced to learn the Christian ways of doing things. (As I recall, might be wrong, I want to say mostly Baptists did that.) Eventually the Native American children were sent home and told to assimilate their family to the white Christian man ways of living life. ... or death.

THAT is how Christianity became so popular.

Archaeology of the Phoenix Indian School

Untitled Document

An Indian Boarding School Photo Gallery

Understand, this school is but one example and it was run by Christians.

Look, I am not one to beat Christians over the head for what Christianity did a gazillion years ago. I'm referring to the assimilation process in the last 100 years. THAT is a big reason why the Native American culture really doesn't have a great culture anymore. So yes, there are mostly Christians but there is more to it than a 'majority' issue.

How does the majority of people being Christian....

affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

??? What in the world does being Christian have to do with the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Those who would like to see Christianity diminished, hidden, sent to the back of the bus, should they succeed, I think will not like the country they will then have.

Do you have ANY idea at all how many people, no... how many Christians currently say that about atheism or anything else non Christian? Once again, welcome to my world.

You can post dozens, perhaps hundreds of incidents of anecdotal evidence and I can do the same to support my point of view, and neither of us would be addressing the larger issue.

The United States of America was founded on the basic principle that there are God given unalienable rights that government must not touch. Now perhaps somebody other than Christians might come up with that concept, but in our case it was Christians who came up with it and it was based on their understanding of what the Creator intended for humankind. An understanding based on their Christian beliefs.

No other nation in the history of the world has founded a nation based on the concept that our rights come from God and cannot be altered by government. In EVERY other nation that has ever existed, the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

I don't think that would have ever happened if almost all of our Founders had not been Christian and devoutly religious.

 

[FactFinder]

the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

Past tense. That's about right.

 

[koshergrl]

That's right, because we all know it's WRONG to learn from our mistakes, don't we?

Did or did not the Nazis claim it was okay to violate the rights of Jews based upon alleged past *crimes* committed by the Jews?

You missed the point entirely. This is basic high school debate.

From asswipes who claim that Christians should not be allowed to teach, or to adhere to their faith in public, or allow their faith to influence them in any way, shape or form in the commission of their work as elected officials. From retards who attempt to subvert, twist and alter the Constitution in order to justify discrimination against Christians, while at the same time promoting their own skewed world order....

So we get it from you.

Welcome to the world of atheism.

Lol..honey, you wouldn't make the high school debate team, I promise.

BTW, you dodged. That also wouldn't fly.

 

[koshergrl]

Abortion is not a Christian thing only. Christian can oppose abortion and Christians can also be pro choice. Ditto for Jews and Buddhists and Atheists. The only thing unique to Christians is the practice of Christianity.

The First Amendment protects Christians and Atheists alike. Each has the right to request his or her preferences be honored, and each can be overruled by the majorty. But, short of violating the rights of another, neither may have their unalienable rights to believe, think, speak, or act infringed by the government.

The confusion comes in the fact that because there are more Christians than any other group throughout our national history, Christian influence is far more likely to be prevalent in our institutions, culture, symbols, music, architecture, mores, and values than will any other group. That is as it should be. It was primarily Christians who founded, explored, settled, and set up the institutions in this country. The people with unalienable rights protected are free to form whatever sort of society they wish to have, and for most of American history, the people have preferred a society influenced by Chrisitian values and conduct for the most part.

If you go to Japan, you will find very little Christian influence there but the culture will be uniquely Japanese. Likewise in Tibet you will see mosques and Buddhist temples, but almost no Christian influence at all.

America being a primarily Christian nation is not an evil thing. It is a good thing because it affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

There really isn't any confusion here. Abortion, gay rights, etc., those are indeed Christian things. Jews, atheists, Buddhists... they are not out there with signs screaming, "Murder!" Everyone else has varying beliefs. Yes, there are many Christians today who are pro choice, not so much years ago when the laws were not for pro choice.

Christians say abortion is murder. No, it's not. A clump of cells is not a person, it's a potential person. What is a Christian's response typically? It has a soul. A soul most certainly is a Christian concept.

I don't care about the music, the culture, etc. I care about the laws. It wasn't Buddhists preventing atheists from running for office. It wasn't the Wiccans, it wasn't the Jews. It was the Christians. It was the Christians literally forcing (or death) their beliefs on the Native Americans. Had it not been for that you might be wearing moccasins right now instead of the shoes on your feet. Small children were taken from their homes, their family, forced into assimilation, forced to learn the Christian ways of doing things. (As I recall, might be wrong, I want to say mostly Baptists did that.) Eventually the Native American children were sent home and told to assimilate their family to the white Christian man ways of living life. ... or death.

THAT is how Christianity became so popular.

Archaeology of the Phoenix Indian School

Untitled Document

An Indian Boarding School Photo Gallery

Understand, this school is but one example and it was run by Christians.

Look, I am not one to beat Christians over the head for what Christianity did a gazillion years ago. I'm referring to the assimilation process in the last 100 years. THAT is a big reason why the Native American culture really doesn't have a great culture anymore. So yes, there are mostly Christians but there is more to it than a 'majority' issue.

How does the majority of people being Christian....

affords all people, Christian or not, protection of their unalienable rights which includes believing Christian doctrine or not, practicing Christian rites and rituals or not, or conducting ourselves by any creed or lack of creed that we choose.

??? What in the world does being Christian have to do with the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Those who would like to see Christianity diminished, hidden, sent to the back of the bus, should they succeed, I think will not like the country they will then have.

Do you have ANY idea at all how many people, no... how many Christians currently say that about atheism or anything else non Christian? Once again, welcome to my world.

As if this crap hasn't been argued (unsuccessfully) a million times before.

Really, who do you think you're dealing with? Why don't you post some numbers to back up the drivel you're trickling? I'd love to see all the Christians who say atheists need to be hidden.

Oh wait, that's right, you're persecuted at work. I forgot.

LOL.

 

[AnnieInMexico]

You can post dozens, perhaps hundreds of incidents of anecdotal evidence and I can do the same to support my point of view, and neither of us would be addressing the larger issue.

The United States of America was founded on the basic principle that there are God given unalienable rights that government must not touch. Now perhaps somebody other than Christians might come up with that concept, but in our case it was Christians who came up with it and it was based on their understanding of what the Creator intended for humankind. An understanding based on their Christian beliefs.

No other nation in the history of the world has founded a nation based on the concept that our rights come from God and cannot be altered by government. In EVERY other nation that has ever existed, the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

I don't think that would have ever happened if almost all of our Founders had not been Christian and devoutly religious.

But what I posted was not anecdotal evidence. I provided proof of part of why Christianity is the major religion of this country and why/how that came to be. The settlers did not assimulate into their new country, they stomped all over it, killed the natives, and forced the rest to comply with the threat of death and even worse, taking their children against their will to learn their culture, not the other way around. This does go to (in part) disprove your current claim. If you can demonstrate otherwise please do. Show me the links

Our Founding fathers were not Christian as a whole and they were NOT devoutly religious.

Proving my claims is not anecdtoal evidence. It is ME trying to show YOU my life as an atheist TODAY in comparison to your life as a Christian TODAY. I have already demonstrated that in day to day living, you have it pretty easy in comparison. So what, you have a few left wing nut jobs going up against your right wing nutjobs. That does NOTHING for the day to day lives of you or me. It has always affected me in a much larger extreme, it is just now beginning to affect you in the sense that you must now conform to the same laws you have held us up to for generation after generation. There is anecdotal evidence and there is flat out proof. I have shown mine, you have shown me nothing.

My anecdotal evidence is not anecdotal evidence, it is one of the specific reasons Christians were allowed to rule for so long. They did so with guns and force. Do I need to post about every school from every state who took children, usually the youngest - they were easier to manage, then was beaten, jailed, stripped of their clothing, hair cut, and physically forced to conform the white Christian man ways? Is that proof or are examples good enough. If not, I'll dig out Google and we'll bring up every govt school where they were all run by Christians assimulating their students in the white man Christians ways. I'll do it. But then you have to refute it of course, in all fairness.

Christians were not the only people that came here and the founding fathers were not deeply religions nor were they all Christian, that is a myth passed on from Christian generation to Christian generation.

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

The Christian Nation Myth

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

Religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers

http://www.jameswatkins.com/foundingfathers.htm

Christianity is in NO way responsible for the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Not even close.

Then there is always this:

From the Treaty of Tripoli, in part:

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

I tried to give you more rep points for not screaming at me using vulgarieties and stomping your feeties but acting as a rational adult in an adult conversation as others have but it does not allow me to as I did recently. But I will when I can.

 

[AnnieInMexico]

So now you're comparing the holocaust to those who want prayer in school on my dime? hhhmmmm

Yes, she is.

Or is it that only atheists should have any influence over how our nation is governed? Everyone else should sit down and shut up?

Where the right comes up with these inane inferences will forever be a mystery.

Where has anyone said anything about only ‘atheists’ having the only influence over how our nation is governed?

It's all she has left. There are followers and leaders... some are leaders and some are not.

Process of elimination, fucktard. If you deny religious people any influence over governance, on the grounds that religion has no place being represented, who's left?

Does it bother you that there are third-graders with better logic skills than you?

Oh, she loses. When facts are not disputed run for name calling. Child's play.

the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

Past tense. That's about right.

Well, theoretically your are correct and that is how it should be. Is it today? Not so much.

That's right, because we all know it's WRONG to learn from our mistakes, don't we?

Did or did not the Nazis claim it was okay to violate the rights of Jews based upon alleged past *crimes* committed by the Jews?

You missed the point entirely. This is basic high school debate.

From asswipes who claim that Christians should not be allowed to teach, or to adhere to their faith in public, or allow their faith to influence them in any way, shape or form in the commission of their work as elected officials. From retards who attempt to subvert, twist and alter the Constitution in order to justify discrimination against Christians, while at the same time promoting their own skewed world order....

So we get it from you.

Welcome to the world of atheism.

Lol..honey, you wouldn't make the high school debate team, I promise.

BTW, you dodged. That also wouldn't fly.

You STILL don't get it. Games over for you.

As if this crap hasn't been argued (unsuccessfully) a million times before.

Really, who do you think you're dealing with? Why don't you post some numbers to back up the drivel you're trickling? I'd love to see all the Christians who say atheists need to be hidden.

Oh wait, that's right, you're persecuted at work. I forgot.

LOL.

You mean such as employment and rights to run for office?

Oh hell no, I'm not persecuted because I stand up and scream what my rights are. I fight back. I don't whine on a message board.

I think I am dealing with people who have their collective heads in the sand because while under the sand they are trying to choke out 'persecution'. It's not even working for you guys.

 

[Gadawg73]

the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

Past tense. That's about right.

Exactly.

What is most disturbing is that the religous right wants to take a document, The United States Constitution, a document founded on the principle that LIMITS THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT, and turn it around and tell a certain group of people what they can not do instead of telling the government WHAT THEY CAN NOT DO.

All in the name of religion because they claim the nation was founded on religion and God.
The Founders never intended that BS.

 

[JRK]

the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

Past tense. That's about right.

Exactly.

What is most disturbing is that the religous right wants to take a document, The United States Constitution, a document founded on the principle that LIMITS THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT, and turn it around and tell a certain group of people what they can not do instead of telling the government WHAT THEY CAN NOT DO.

All in the name of religion because they claim the nation was founded on religion and God.
The Founders never intended that BS.

The religous right just wants to practice there freedom of religion thingy
The Ten Commandments are at the Supreme Court and have been there for some time. Not sure what you’re stating about intent is the truth

 

[Gadawg73]

the rights of the people are dictated by government. In our nation, we the people dictated what the government cannot do and left the people, with their rights secured, free to live their lives in any way they saw fit.

Past tense. That's about right.

Exactly.

What is most disturbing is that the religous right wants to take a document, The United States Constitution, a document founded on the principle that LIMITS THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT, and turn it around and tell a certain group of people what they can not do instead of telling the government WHAT THEY CAN NOT DO.

All in the name of religion because they claim the nation was founded on religion and God.
The Founders never intended that BS.

The religous right just wants to practice there freedom of religion thingy
The Ten Commandments are at the Supreme Court and have been there for some time. Not sure what you’re stating about intent is the truth

They can practice their "religion thingy" all they want but religion is beliefs.
We are a nation OF LAWS, not different and changing like the wind religious beliefs.
They do it your way in Iran.

 

[peach174]

What the Founder's wanted, was for the Government not to endorse any one type of Christian Religion, or any other type of Religion.
Like England did.
They never wanted this Nation or our Government to ever become Secular. This is why they never had the Federal Government in our Schools.
All of our schools taught our children about God but never endorsed any one type of our vast majorities of Christian Religion. There are about 41,000 different types of Christian denominations in the U.S.A. and it is because of the 1st amendment that we have so many different types.
In America you have the right to worship how you wish. You also have the right to not worship. But our Government was never meant to be secular and leave God out of our Government.
Our Laws are based on what the Bible says in several different areas in the Bible.
God gave the Israelites the laws that they should use on how a Government should be conducted and many of those same laws were put into our government.
When the Government use these laws and include God, they become free and they prosper.
Secularism causes the people of the Nation to become poorer and slaves to the rules of Government.

 

[JRK]

Exactly.

What is most disturbing is that the religous right wants to take a document, The United States Constitution, a document founded on the principle that LIMITS THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT, and turn it around and tell a certain group of people what they can not do instead of telling the government WHAT THEY CAN NOT DO.

All in the name of religion because they claim the nation was founded on religion and God.
The Founders never intended that BS.

The religous right just wants to practice there freedom of religion thingy
The Ten Commandments are at the Supreme Court and have been there for some time. Not sure what you’re stating about intent is the truth

They can practice their "religion thingy" all they want but religion is beliefs.
We are a nation OF LAWS, not different and changing like the wind religious beliefs.
They do it your way in Iran.

Not sure where it is written that you must follow the writings in the King James bible?
The ten Commandments are also for the most part real law, is it not?

My point has allways been the will of the people have nevr had a say in this matter AND it is not in the constitution as it in error reported
as with abortion, it has been judges back and forth from the bench. Never has the will of the people been spoke on either issue

Look no more than you, I do not want the Govt telling me what to believe
BUT
in the local hi school, there are many examples in which prayer should be allowed
a moment of silenece
Clubs in which the reason is god, what ever god
individual choice
There is a big difference to govern with one god and allwoing govt. having the choice to worship one god by choice in a govt event.
As the threads states
nothing in the constitution states there is a seperation of church and state

 

[Foxfyre]

The religous right just wants to practice there freedom of religion thingy
The Ten Commandments are at the Supreme Court and have been there for some time. Not sure what you’re stating about intent is the truth

They can practice their "religion thingy" all they want but religion is beliefs.
We are a nation OF LAWS, not different and changing like the wind religious beliefs.
They do it your way in Iran.

Not sure where it is written that you must follow the writings in the King James bible?
The ten Commandments are also for the most part real law, is it not?

My point has allways been the will of the people have nevr had a say in this matter AND it is not in the constitution as it in error reported
as with abortion, it has been judges back and forth from the bench. Never has the will of the people been spoke on either issue

Look no more than you, I do not want the Govt telling me what to believe
BUT
in the local hi school, there are many examples in which prayer should be allowed
a moment of silenece
Clubs in which the reason is god, what ever god
individual choice
There is a big difference to govern with one god and allwoing govt. having the choice to worship one god by choice in a govt event.
As the threads states
nothing in the constitution states there is a seperation of church and state

I was blessed to grow up in public schools that still educated and did not indoctrinate their students. And this was before the PC and anti-religion police made war on religion and began corrupting Constitutional intent regarding it.

We had prayer before football games--generic prayers, sometimes led by a local pastor or private citizen or Jewish rabbi. We had prayers to open student assemblies--always student led. We were able to learn the music of all the great masters, secular and relgious alike. If something bad happened at school--a teacher or student who was seriously ill or injured for instance--the teachers would allow us kids to take a moment to 'remember' or 'pray' for such people. And it was a good thing for all of us--Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Atheist, whatever. Our God, however we perceived him, was not unwelcome in the school. It was a good thing.

I think incalculable damage is done to children when the system seems to make their religious faith an unacceptable or shameful or forbidden thing. Much more damage than could ever occur to the non-believing student who was expected to respect and be courteous to others just as they were expected to respect and be courteous re his/her beliefs.

 

[JRK]

They can practice their "religion thingy" all they want but religion is beliefs.
We are a nation OF LAWS, not different and changing like the wind religious beliefs.
They do it your way in Iran.

Not sure where it is written that you must follow the writings in the King James bible?
The ten Commandments are also for the most part real law, is it not?

My point has allways been the will of the people have nevr had a say in this matter AND it is not in the constitution as it in error reported
as with abortion, it has been judges back and forth from the bench. Never has the will of the people been spoke on either issue

Look no more than you, I do not want the Govt telling me what to believe
BUT
in the local hi school, there are many examples in which prayer should be allowed
a moment of silenece
Clubs in which the reason is god, what ever god
individual choice
There is a big difference to govern with one god and allwoing govt. having the choice to worship one god by choice in a govt event.
As the threads states
nothing in the constitution states there is a seperation of church and state

I was blessed to grow up in public schools that still educated and did not indoctrinate their students. And this was before the PC and anti-religion police made war on religion and began corrupting Constitutional intent regarding it.

We had prayer before football games--generic prayers, sometimes led by a local pastor or private citizen or Jewish rabbi. We had prayers to open student assemblies--always student led. We were able to learn the music of all the great masters, secular and relgious alike. If something bad happened at school--a teacher or student who was seriously ill or injured for instance--the teachers would allow us kids to take a moment to 'remember' or 'pray' for such people. And it was a good thing for all of us--Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Atheist, whatever. Our God, however we perceived him, was not unwelcome in the school. It was a good thing.

I think incalculable damage is done to children when the system seems to make their religious faith an unacceptable or shameful or forbidden thing. Much more damage than could ever occur to the non-believing student who was expected to respect and be courteous to others just as they were expected to respect and be courteous re his/her beliefs.

It is amazing that 10 can run the world for 1000
The public school system is gone with no hope to ever get it back
I really have no issue with a certain "god" being pushed on those who do not believe not occuring
Waht I do have issue with is the total shut down of faith
there are ways to have gone arounf the 10 with respect so thatr the other(s) could practice there faith
in school teaching of religion should be a matter of choice also

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure where it is written that you must follow the writings in the King James bible?
The ten Commandments are also for the most part real law, is it not?

My point has allways been the will of the people have nevr had a say in this matter AND it is not in the constitution as it in error reported
as with abortion, it has been judges back and forth from the bench. Never has the will of the people been spoke on either issue

Look no more than you, I do not want the Govt telling me what to believe
BUT
in the local hi school, there are many examples in which prayer should be allowed
a moment of silenece
Clubs in which the reason is god, what ever god
individual choice
There is a big difference to govern with one god and allwoing govt. having the choice to worship one god by choice in a govt event.
As the threads states
nothing in the constitution states there is a seperation of church and state

I was blessed to grow up in public schools that still educated and did not indoctrinate their students. And this was before the PC and anti-religion police made war on religion and began corrupting Constitutional intent regarding it.

We had prayer before football games--generic prayers, sometimes led by a local pastor or private citizen or Jewish rabbi. We had prayers to open student assemblies--always student led. We were able to learn the music of all the great masters, secular and relgious alike. If something bad happened at school--a teacher or student who was seriously ill or injured for instance--the teachers would allow us kids to take a moment to 'remember' or 'pray' for such people. And it was a good thing for all of us--Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Atheist, whatever. Our God, however we perceived him, was not unwelcome in the school. It was a good thing.

I think incalculable damage is done to children when the system seems to make their religious faith an unacceptable or shameful or forbidden thing. Much more damage than could ever occur to the non-believing student who was expected to respect and be courteous to others just as they were expected to respect and be courteous re his/her beliefs.

It is amazing that 10 can run the world for 1000
The public school system is gone with no hope to ever get it back
I really have no issue with a certain "god" being pushed on those who do not believe not occuring
Waht I do have issue with is the total shut down of faith
there are ways to have gone arounf the 10 with respect so thatr the other(s) could practice there faith
in school teaching of religion should be a matter of choice also

Local school boards along with parents and teachers of course should have full license to set policy according with the values and standards of the community they serve. Lots of religion or no religion, it isn't anybody's business but theirs. Or shouldn't be.

I've always said that there is no freedom at all, if the local people cannot decide that creationism and/or intelligent design have no place in science class. But at the same time, there is no freedom at all if the local people cannot choose to teach creationism and/or intelligent design alongside evolution in science class.

It is not a matter of what is the best policy. It is a matter of whether we are a free people or not.

The unconstitutional process began when the federal government presumed to dictate to the local schools what they could or could not teach in the public schools. Also when the federal courts gave standing to groups like the ACLU who make big bucks filing suit against 'separation of church and state' issues that should never have been recognized.

 

[Foxfyre]

Federal legislation enacted 30 years ago provides that attorneys successfully suing federal, state or local governments for violations of constitutional or civil rights are entitled to recover attorneys' fees from the Defendant government. This law is highly desirable for low and moderate income citizens to protect their basic rights in court, for they are likely to be unable to finance costs and legal fees for such litigation on their own.

But no one thought at the time that this meant taxpayers would have to pay organizations like the ACLU for legal fees for suing local governments to force the Boy Scouts out of public facilities. Or for suing to shut down Christmas displays, or to tear down monuments including the Ten Commandments, or to rip crosses out of veterans memorials.

Yet, this is exactly what the attorneys fees statute is being used for today.
Peter Ferrara: ACLU Welfare | The American Civil Rights Union

The ACLU gets paid their fees if they just threaten a lawsuit that causes the accused entity to change their policies. But if the entity stands up to the ACLU and the ACLU loses--and this has happened--the public entity cannot be reimbursed for its costs for defending itself from the ACLU. This has had such a chilling effect on schools, cities, and other public entities that can't afford hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to defend these suits that we now have this spectacle of schools and communities scrubbed clean of anything that might even look or sound the least bit religious.

In 2006, the House of Representatives passed H.R.2679 that would have stopped the federal mandate requiring public entities to pay the costs of the ACLU (or other) lawyers bringing these kinds of suits. It died in the Senate, however, and once the Democrats took over, it had no chance to passed.

 

[gslack]

Everyone with any sense of self preservation should be equally wary of anybody, group or government, either advocating religion or opposing religion. The separation of church and state must be absolute, the same for everyone or religion, even and especially if it is anti-religion.

Anti-religion can be just as harmful to the people as any religion, and like religion is only as good, right, or divine or even beneficial as those who bring it forth. Bad apples, bad pie..

That being said, religious sayings, rules, guidelines, so on, that do not impart any ill-will or feelings, meanings or whatever, and in fact are representative of the finer and better things we can all embrace, should not only be allowed, but embraced for what they say and mean, and not by what book or tenement it came from...

When a person tells me god bless you, or some muslim says Jazakallah, to me I don't take offense. Why should I? They basically mean the same thing but using two different languages and coming from two different deities. Just as I don't take offense when I see the ten commandments in a court room. I pretty much know all the commandments are viewed as wrong by most religions and even non-religious people. So what's wrong with it? The message is the point....

You people get too worked up over trifles. I say if the message is a good one, who cares where it came from? But that's my 2 cents anyway..