And when only the police have guns....and decide the cartels pay better..they kill innocent people..

[Missourian]

How many of those are suicides, how many are justifiable homicides, how many are police shootings?

19,000 are sucides. Suicides are really a bad thing.

Only 201 justifiable homicides by civilians a year. Not enough to justify gun usage.

For Police Shootings, (which I don't consider "justifiable" in most cases. Not after that film of a cop shooting a man in the back, you have to wonder how often that goes on.) no one really knows because most police departments don't report them. It's estimated to be 1200 a year or so.

More falsehoods and misleading stats. Do you have a cure for suicide?

Sure I do. It's called, "Not having guns lying around the house". That would reduce the suicide rate by about 50%.

10,000 Americans per year commit suicide by suffocation...is there a plastic bag crisis, a rope crisis?

since plastic bags and ropes aren't designed for that purpose, no. Guns are specifically designed to kill people.

The CDC says 21,000 suicides.

Firearm suicides

• Number of deaths: 21,175
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7

Suffocation suicides

• Number of deaths: 10,062
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.2

Poisoning suicides

• Number of deaths: 6,637
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

The suicide rate in the U.K. (miniscule firearm ownership) 11.9 deaths per 100,000

The suicide rate in the U.S. (200 million firearms) 12.6 deaths per 100,000

Oops.

So firearm HOMICIDES and accidental shootings is ALL we should be looking at.

And since we know that swimming pools cause more accidental deaths than firearms...we can cut those out too, hardly a crisis.

So we are down to roughly 11,000 firearm homicides, again, according to the CDC.

Firearm homicides

• Number of deaths: 11,208

 

[Missourian]

Cops cleared more than 400 times each year for justified homicides.

Law enforcement officers cleared more than 400 times each year for justified homicides - Washington Times

Subtract those...down to 10,808 Firearm homicides per year.

 

[Brain357]

How many of those are suicides, how many are justifiable homicides, how many are police shootings?

19,000 are sucides. Suicides are really a bad thing.

Only 201 justifiable homicides by civilians a year. Not enough to justify gun usage.

For Police Shootings, (which I don't consider "justifiable" in most cases. Not after that film of a cop shooting a man in the back, you have to wonder how often that goes on.) no one really knows because most police departments don't report them. It's estimated to be 1200 a year or so.

More falsehoods and misleading stats. Do you have a cure for suicide?

Sure I do. It's called, "Not having guns lying around the house". That would reduce the suicide rate by about 50%.

10,000 Americans per year commit suicide by suffocation...is there a plastic bag crisis, a rope crisis?

since plastic bags and ropes aren't designed for that purpose, no. Guns are specifically designed to kill people.

The CDC says 21,000 suicides.

Firearm suicides

• Number of deaths: 21,175
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7

Suffocation suicides

• Number of deaths: 10,062
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.2

Poisoning suicides

• Number of deaths: 6,637
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

The suicide rate in the U.K. (miniscule firearm ownership) 11.9 deaths per 100,000

The suicide rate in the U.S. (200 million firearms) 12.6 deaths per 100,000

Oops.

So firearm HOMICIDES and accidental shootings is ALL we should be looking at.

And since we know that swimming pools cause more accidental deaths than firearms...we can cut those out too, hardly a crisis.

So we are down to roughly 11,000 firearm homicides, again, according to the CDC.

Firearm homicides

• Number of deaths: 11,208

I don't see why you would cut out accidental deaths. We sure have a lot more than anywhere else in the world. Most pool deaths are children. If as many children played with guns as swim I'm pretty sure the accidental gun death would be much higher than pools.

 

[JoeB131]

Cops cleared more than 400 times each year for justified homicides.

Yeah. About that.

They were ready to "clear" officer Slager until the video showed up. Slager told some cock and bull story about how the guy he shot IN THE BACK took his taser.

and they were ready to give him a pass. Until the video showed up.

 

[JoeB131]

[


The CDC says 21,000 suicides.

​

The suicide rate in the U.K. (miniscule firearm ownership) 11.9 deaths per 100,000

The suicide rate in the U.S. (200 million firearms) 12.6 deaths per 100,000

Oops.

yeah. We have a higher rate.

[
So firearm HOMICIDES and accidental shootings is ALL we should be looking at.

And since we know that swimming pools cause more accidental deaths than firearms...we can cut those out too, hardly a crisis.

So we are down to roughly 11,000 firearm homicides, again, according to the CDC.

Firearm homicides

• Number of deaths: 11,208

Guy, it's just tiresome to listen to you try to cherry pick statistics to try to pretend that we don't have a gun problem.

It's like listening to an alcoholic try to deny he has a drinking problem after he just wrapped a Buick around a lamppost.

 

[2aguy]

Guns make 1.6 million people a year safer.....

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

 

[Brain357]

Guns make 1.6 million people a year safer.....

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

Then if you believe that one is right how can you say 1.6? And what year was this from?

 

[2aguy]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

 

[2aguy]

Guns make 1.6 million people a year safer.....

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

Then if you believe that one is right how can you say 1.6? And what year was this from?

I didn't say that.....I responded to the idiots claim that the studies were all paid for by the NRA.....obviously they weren't.....my 1.6 million number, as you know, is the average from 16 different studies over 40 years....showing the breadth and depth of the actual number on defensive gun use research in this country....

 

[Brain357]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

 

[2aguy]

How many of those are suicides, how many are justifiable homicides, how many are police shootings?

19,000 are sucides. Suicides are really a bad thing.

Only 201 justifiable homicides by civilians a year. Not enough to justify gun usage.

For Police Shootings, (which I don't consider "justifiable" in most cases. Not after that film of a cop shooting a man in the back, you have to wonder how often that goes on.) no one really knows because most police departments don't report them. It's estimated to be 1200 a year or so.

More falsehoods and misleading stats. Do you have a cure for suicide?

Sure I do. It's called, "Not having guns lying around the house". That would reduce the suicide rate by about 50%.

10,000 Americans per year commit suicide by suffocation...is there a plastic bag crisis, a rope crisis?

since plastic bags and ropes aren't designed for that purpose, no. Guns are specifically designed to kill people.

The CDC says 21,000 suicides.

Firearm suicides

• Number of deaths: 21,175
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7

Suffocation suicides

• Number of deaths: 10,062
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.2

Poisoning suicides

• Number of deaths: 6,637
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

The suicide rate in the U.K. (miniscule firearm ownership) 11.9 deaths per 100,000

The suicide rate in the U.S. (200 million firearms) 12.6 deaths per 100,000

Oops.

So firearm HOMICIDES and accidental shootings is ALL we should be looking at.

And since we know that swimming pools cause more accidental deaths than firearms...we can cut those out too, hardly a crisis.

So we are down to roughly 11,000 firearm homicides, again, according to the CDC.

Firearm homicides

• Number of deaths: 11,208

The more accurate number is from the FBI table 8 which I posted earlier....gun murders in 2013... 8,454....

 

[2aguy]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

They aren't covered in the research brain and you know that......the studies interviewed actual people involved as victims in attacks and they had to admit to using guns to strangers......and felons do not admit to strangers they used guns...even for self defense because that is another felony......

 

[Brain357]

Guns make 1.6 million people a year safer.....

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

Then if you believe that one is right how can you say 1.6? And what year was this from?

I didn't say that.....I responded to the idiots claim that the studies were all paid for by the NRA.....obviously they weren't.....my 1.6 million number, as you know, is the average from 16 different studies over 40 years....showing the breadth and depth of the actual number on defensive gun use research in this country....

I you are averaging them then you must not be confident any are correct. If the Clinton one is correct you are off by 100k. If NCVS is right off by 1.5 million. You can't average them and act like its a real number. And crime has come down 30% since those studies were done, how are you accounting for that?

 

[2aguy]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

Brain...you have,seen Kleck respond to this specifically time and time again......when I get off the iPad I'll do it again...you may have to remind me....

 

[Brain357]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

They aren't covered in the research brain and you know that......the studies interviewed actual people involved as victims in attacks and they had to admit to using guns to strangers......and felons do not admit to strangers they used guns...even for self defense because that is another felony......

Then that must be in the study. Yet you continue to fail to back up your claim. Post where it is in the study. I have a quote from kleck stating most defenders are involved in criminal activity.

 

[Brain357]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

Brain...you have,seen Kleck respond to this specifically time and time again......when I get off the iPad I'll do it again...you may have to remind me....

I have seen him say that at the time of the defense the defender is not commiting a crime. I have never seen anything in the study stating defenders aren't thugs. Please share it.

 

[2aguy]

Guns make 1.6 million people a year safer.....

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

Then if you believe that one is right how can you say 1.6? And what year was this from?

I didn't say that.....I responded to the idiots claim that the studies were all paid for by the NRA.....obviously they weren't.....my 1.6 million number, as you know, is the average from 16 different studies over 40 years....showing the breadth and depth of the actual number on defensive gun use research in this country....

I you are averaging them then you must not be confident any are correct. If the Clinton one is correct you are off by 100k. If NCVS is right off by 1.5 million. You can't average them and act like its a real number. And crime has come down 30% since those studies were done, how are you accounting for that?

The research is posted...and additional research...it is all there for everyone to read...there are 16 actual defensive gun use studies done over a 40 year period by both private and public researchers, many of whom are anti gun, and I average the numbers to get an average number of defensive gun uses each year...

the most accurate study is Kleck's because his time frame for his questions is one year and he used detailed methods to check for consistency...and his actual number for all guns was 2.5 million.....then he broke it down between handguns and long guns......look at that for the exact numbers...

 

[2aguy]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

Brain...you have,seen Kleck respond to this specifically time and time again......when I get off the iPad I'll do it again...you may have to remind me....

I have seen him say that at the time of the defense the defender is not commiting a crime. I have never seen anything in the study stating defenders aren't thugs. Please share it.

Brain...you are trying to be clever,again...it doesn't suit you...

 

[Brain357]

You quoted a study earlier that said 1.5.

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

Then if you believe that one is right how can you say 1.6? And what year was this from?

I didn't say that.....I responded to the idiots claim that the studies were all paid for by the NRA.....obviously they weren't.....my 1.6 million number, as you know, is the average from 16 different studies over 40 years....showing the breadth and depth of the actual number on defensive gun use research in this country....

I you are averaging them then you must not be confident any are correct. If the Clinton one is correct you are off by 100k. If NCVS is right off by 1.5 million. You can't average them and act like its a real number. And crime has come down 30% since those studies were done, how are you accounting for that?

The research is posted...and additional research...it is all there for everyone to read...there are 16 actual defensive gun use studies done over a 40 year period by both private and public researchers, many of whom are anti gun, and I average the numbers to get an average number of defensive gun uses each year...

the most accurate study is Kleck's because his time frame for his questions is one year and he used detailed methods to check for consistency...and his actual number for all guns was 2.5 million.....then he broke it down between handguns and long guns......look at that for the exact numbers...

So now you are claiming 2.5? The number moves a lot for you. What year was this study? Does this number account for the lower crime rates?

 

[2aguy]

and how do the victims know each other...

Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique. According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history." A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicinereported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

and here we finally find the 70-80% of gun murders are gang related..

So then if most are thug on thug crime the majority of defenses must also be thug on thug. And if you aren't involved in criminal activity you are very safe and do not need a gun.

we have been through this brain...the studies, especially Kleck's were on normal people, not criminals. Criminals do not answer questions where they used guns because felons can't own or use guns or they get arrested and go to jail...

and rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbing happen to normal people......because that is where the money is......so as low as crime can get....there will always be people who are exposed to violent attack...from criminals...from violent relationships....from random violent monsters......so the right to protect yourself from violence will never completely go away..

that is why Juan .williams who decried people owning guns because the level of violence is going down, not up, will never get it....

You have never posted where Kleck says none of the defenses were thug on thug. Given thugs are armed and in high crime areas they are obviously the majority of defenses. So post where he says defenders are not thugs.

They aren't covered in the research brain and you know that......the studies interviewed actual people involved as victims in attacks and they had to admit to using guns to strangers......and felons do not admit to strangers they used guns...even for self defense because that is another felony......

Then that must be in the study. Yet you continue to fail to back up your claim. Post where it is in the study. I have a quote from kleck stating most defenders are involved in criminal activity.

and you know you have actually read Kleck say this very year that that means they carried their guns in public or didn't have the right or full paperwork back in the 90s....not that they were career criminals......and pretending that you don't know that is not flattering for you...