And it starts.. The "Wimpification" of the U.S. Military

[OKTexas]

Funny how right wingers care so much about this now.

Because they've been "wimpifying" our police departments for years, and you guys have never cared. Yet, thousands of brave, competent women put on a badge, vest and gun every single night in every single city in America, and have done just fine.

Thats not the same, you say?

Well, as you read this, if you saw 2 armed thugs kicking at the front door of your neighbors home, who would you call?

A) The Marines
B) The Army
C) The Air Force
D) The Navy
E) The Police Department

So, if women are good enough to protect you HERE, why not THERE???

They don't have to carry 80 pounds of body armor plus ammo a weapon and other equipment in 120 degrees here. There might be 1 in 10,000 women who can handle a combat load on rough terrain. Is it really worth changing everything for those odds?

A police vest and duty belt go about 30 pounds, and in polyester (aka, hot). And Atlanta gets freakin' hot as fuck. I know...its not Iraq. Never said it was. But female firemen do fine with heavy loads, in high heat, in burning terrain. I personally saw female cops hold their own right next to the men.

Are they more rare than a man would be? Sure. I 100% support keeping standards the same for all. And if the woman can make it, have at it. Now, if we are talking changing standards, no, Im not for that. The police and fire depts dont change standards for women. Not for PT, shooting, fighting, driving, anything. Standards are the same. May be why there are far more male cops than females. And even more of a gap amongst swat teams. But, there are some female swat members here and there.

Anyhow, just my two cents. I wasn't military, so I cant comment with a lot of knowledge of it. But I've seen women fight and carry a gun in ATL, and they did just fine. Even when it was 110 degrees outside.

The woman quoted in the OP was suggesting a change in physical standards implying they are not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Hate to tell her, my 26 years of Army experience says different.

 

[bucs90]

They don't have to carry 80 pounds of body armor plus ammo a weapon and other equipment in 120 degrees here. There might be 1 in 10,000 women who can handle a combat load on rough terrain. Is it really worth changing everything for those odds?

A police vest and duty belt go about 30 pounds, and in polyester (aka, hot). And Atlanta gets freakin' hot as fuck. I know...its not Iraq. Never said it was. But female firemen do fine with heavy loads, in high heat, in burning terrain. I personally saw female cops hold their own right next to the men.

Are they more rare than a man would be? Sure. I 100% support keeping standards the same for all. And if the woman can make it, have at it. Now, if we are talking changing standards, no, Im not for that. The police and fire depts dont change standards for women. Not for PT, shooting, fighting, driving, anything. Standards are the same. May be why there are far more male cops than females. And even more of a gap amongst swat teams. But, there are some female swat members here and there.

Anyhow, just my two cents. I wasn't military, so I cant comment with a lot of knowledge of it. But I've seen women fight and carry a gun in ATL, and they did just fine. Even when it was 110 degrees outside.

The woman quoted in the OP was suggesting a change in physical standards implying they are not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Hate to tell her, my 26 years of Army experience says different.

Now that I dont agree with. We had females tryout for APD swat team. They wore the same heavy vests that you probably did in the Army, carried M4's or MP5's. They made the candidates...male and female...run the obstacle course with one of those vests on. That was where the females didnt make it. Not saying NO females could make it. Just that those didnt. It was very heavy, especially with the ceramic plates in, which both were front and back.

I left in 99, but heard a female made it in 05, she was a former college athlete or something, but not sure how true that was.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

In the years that that Liberals and Democrats have been arguing that women need to be in allowing in all positions in the military

"In allowing in" ? Forget "wimpification" of America - let's start with grammar.

, the one thing that has kept them from being in many of the roles is the simply biological fact that they are not as strong men.

The average 40 year male old isn't as strong as the average 20 year old male. I guess that means we should replace experienced drill sergeants with average 20 year old males, right?

They don't have the endurance of men.

LOL! You've clearly never witnessed a vaginal child birth. A Caesarian isn't that easy, either. Some women go through the full labor and THEN get cut open at the very end. And that's just normal life pain for them - they didn't have to join the military to endure it!

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

Of course it isn't. Do we need someone to tell us that? If physical strength were the be all and end all of combat service, they would just send the strongest guys out to combat and not even worry about training them to shoot a guys.


I'm very sorry you're such a pussy that women in the military actually threatens your sense of masculinity. Go cry to your mama.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Funny how right wingers care so much about this now.

Because they've been "wimpifying" our police departments for years, and you guys have never cared. Yet, thousands of brave, competent women put on a badge, vest and gun every single night in every single city in America, and have done just fine.

Thats not the same, you say?

Well, as you read this, if you saw 2 armed thugs kicking at the front door of your neighbors home, who would you call?

A) The Marines
B) The Army
C) The Air Force
D) The Navy
E) The Police Department

So, if women are good enough to protect you HERE, why not THERE???

Well pretty much if the door was being kicked down I would count on me first since I would be the front line of defense for my family. Now if I had my options and a time delay device I would pick Navy Seals, Marines, Rangers...AF and Police are last.

MY GOD I predicted that just right. I just KNEW a RW'er would respond with "me first". Yeah, thats it. Go George Zimmerman on us, run across the street, and you confront them. Thats why I said your NEIGHBOR, not you.

So let me rephrase.

You are at work. And your kids are home alone with your wife. And I know........all RW'ers have wives and kids who are combat trained, armed and ready.

But lets assume for a moment they aren't. And they call you saying someone is kicking the door. Who do you tell them to call? And no, you dont get a "time delay" device. As hard as it is to admit, the police literally are here to protect you and your family, and you cant hit pause and call the Army or Navy to come protect you.

And even with that, you'd pick wrong. In that situation, with the time delay device, the #1 unit in the world you could call for a hostage rescue situation would be the FBI National SWAT team, officially called HRT- Hostage Rescue Team. They are the best. They train the SEALS, Rangers, LAPD SWAT, etc, etc, on CQB Hostage Situation training. They are all ex-special forces, guys who spent 10-20 years on major city SWAT teams, etc, etc.


But in that rapidly developing situation, no, you wouldnt get them either. You get the local police. Maybe even a female one.

Oh my bad, I kinda forgot to a left winger your neighbor is no more worthy of defense than yourself. None of your scenario changes my mind even with you expanding the paremeters of who can possibly respond.

Self defense starts with you. Period. It could be your neighbor that needs your help or you needing your neighbor's help but in the end the most effective defense is you, on the scene as it's happening. Hostage rescue teams aren't really needed if you solve the problem yourself. If you don't then yes maybe they can help you out a few hours later. The worst group of people you can count on are the local police. They come in after the fact and write reports listing the dead and how it happened. Man or woman the bottom of the barrel of self defense is calling the cops. If that's your primary defense mechanism you are f*cked.

 

[OKTexas]

In the years that that Liberals and Democrats have been arguing that women need to be in allowing in all positions in the military

"In allowing in" ? Forget "wimpification" of America - let's start with grammar.

, the one thing that has kept them from being in many of the roles is the simply biological fact that they are not as strong men.

The average 40 year male old isn't as strong as the average 20 year old male. I guess that means we should replace experienced drill sergeants with average 20 year old males, right?

They don't have the endurance of men.

LOL! You've clearly never witnessed a vaginal child birth.

I'm very sorry you're such a pussy that women in the military actually threatens your sense of masculinity. Go cry to your mama.

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

Of course it isn't. Do we need someone to tell us that? If physical strength were the be all and end all of combat service, they would just send the strongest guys out to combat and not even worry about training them to shoot a gun.

Never been in the military have you? A DI in their 30's is the exception, most are in their mid to upper 20's, male and female. The 1st Sgt in a basic company would be the exception but they don't do the training, their job is administrative and discipline.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Well pretty much if the door was being kicked down I would count on me first since I would be the front line of defense for my family. Now if I had my options and a time delay device I would pick Navy Seals, Marines, Rangers...AF and Police are last.

MY GOD I predicted that just right. I just KNEW a RW'er would respond with "me first". Yeah, thats it. Go George Zimmerman on us, run across the street, and you confront them. Thats why I said your NEIGHBOR, not you.

So let me rephrase.

You are at work. And your kids are home alone with your wife. And I know........all RW'ers have wives and kids who are combat trained, armed and ready.

But lets assume for a moment they aren't. And they call you saying someone is kicking the door. Who do you tell them to call? And no, you dont get a "time delay" device. As hard as it is to admit, the police literally are here to protect you and your family, and you cant hit pause and call the Army or Navy to come protect you.

And even with that, you'd pick wrong. In that situation, with the time delay device, the #1 unit in the world you could call for a hostage rescue situation would be the FBI National SWAT team, officially called HRT- Hostage Rescue Team. They are the best. They train the SEALS, Rangers, LAPD SWAT, etc, etc, on CQB Hostage Situation training. They are all ex-special forces, guys who spent 10-20 years on major city SWAT teams, etc, etc.


But in that rapidly developing situation, no, you wouldnt get them either. You get the local police. Maybe even a female one.

Oh my bad, I kinda forgot to a left winger your neighbor is no more worthy of defense than yourself. None of your scenario changes my mind even with you expanding the paremeters of who can possibly respond.

bucs90 is a lefty? When did that happen? Oh, right, I forget, anyone who isn't a hard right nutbag must be a commie. As we've learned from FOX News, there's only two sides.

Hostage rescue teams aren't really needed if you solve the problem yourself.

Stop watching television.

If you don't then yes maybe they can help you out a few hours later. The worst group of people you can count on are the local police. They come in after the fact and write reports listing the dead and how it happened. Man or woman the bottom of the barrel of self defense is calling the cops. If that's your primary defense mechanism you are f*cked.

It's good to see you appreciate the sacrifices your local PD makes.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

In the years that that Liberals and Democrats have been arguing that women need to be in allowing in all positions in the military

"In allowing in" ? Forget "wimpification" of America - let's start with grammar.


The average 40 year male old isn't as strong as the average 20 year old male. I guess that means we should replace experienced drill sergeants with average 20 year old males, right?



LOL! You've clearly never witnessed a vaginal child birth.

I'm very sorry you're such a pussy that women in the military actually threatens your sense of masculinity. Go cry to your mama.

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

Of course it isn't. Do we need someone to tell us that? If physical strength were the be all and end all of combat service, they would just send the strongest guys out to combat and not even worry about training them to shoot a gun.

Never been in the military have you? A DI in their 30's is the exception, most are in their mid to upper 20's, male and female.

Yeah, like I need to be in the military to know that. Its called SARCASM you moron. Clearly there are exceptional people. The OP thinks there are only exceptional MEN, however. Fucks sake.

Why is it conservatives hold military service in such high regard and at the same time seek to deny it to as many people as possible regardless of their ability to do the job?

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

I've never served as a member of the military. So I think the rank of colonel is probably higher than me when it comes to issues of the military.
BTW, what was your rank?

 

[Missouri_Mike]

It's good to see you appreciate the sacrifices your local PD makes.

I actually come from a family with a lot of cops. They do great and brave work but at the same time will tell you depending on them for your security in your home is f*cking stupid.

They rush to the scene as best they can but by then it's over. They just count the bodies and decide who to charge if anyone.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Yeah, like I need to be in the military to know that. Its called SARCASM you moron. Clearly there are exceptional people. The OP thinks there are only exceptional MEN, however. Fucks sake.

Why is it conservatives hold military service in such high regard and at the same time seek to deny it to as many people as possible regardless of their ability to do the job?

Nobody here has said men only. All we ask is the women that become part of the force pass the same tests. Only then will we know they are the best, we can't know that if the standards are dropped to accomedate less than the best.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It's good to see you appreciate the sacrifices your local PD makes.

I actually come from a family with a lot of cops. They do great and brave work but at the same time will tell you depending on them for your security in your home is f*cking stupid.

Sure - if you completely neglect all the home intrusions that never happen in the first place as a result of their efforts.

They rush to the scene as best they can but by then it's over. They just count the bodies

Really, is that all they do? Then go tell it to the cops in your family. Tell them the late nights they spend patrolling shitty neighborhoods or taking dangerous drunken morons off the roads don't do any good whatsoever - because all they do is count bodies, right?

and decide who to charge if anyone.

When there is a body involved and there is a crime, its usually a felony. You can be charged with a felony by a grand jury in a bill of indictment or (in some states) by a prosecutor in a bill of information. The cops are neither. Prosecutors typically value the cops' judgement (they value the police at lot more than you do), but its not their call.

 

[OKTexas]

"In allowing in" ? Forget "wimpification" of America - let's start with grammar.


The average 40 year male old isn't as strong as the average 20 year old male. I guess that means we should replace experienced drill sergeants with average 20 year old males, right?



LOL! You've clearly never witnessed a vaginal child birth.

I'm very sorry you're such a pussy that women in the military actually threatens your sense of masculinity. Go cry to your mama.



Of course it isn't. Do we need someone to tell us that? If physical strength were the be all and end all of combat service, they would just send the strongest guys out to combat and not even worry about training them to shoot a gun.

Never been in the military have you? A DI in their 30's is the exception, most are in their mid to upper 20's, male and female.

Yeah, like I need to be in the military to know that. Its called SARCASM you moron. Clearly there are exceptional people. The OP thinks there are only exceptional MEN, however. Fucks sake.

Why is it conservatives hold military service in such high regard and at the same time seek to deny it to as many people as possible regardless of their ability to do the job?

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

I've never served as a member of the military. So I think the rank of Colonel is probably higher than me when it comes to issues of the military.
BTW, what was your rank?

The point is they do jobs suitable to their abilities, the job should set the standards not a bunch of PC pie in the sky asses. In combat arms failure cost lives, you don't get do overs. I was enlisted and spent 10 years in training and operations and BTW I was promoted more times than the Col, I'll leave it to you to speculate about my rank.

 

[Politico]

Hate to break it to ya. They were wimpified years ago.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

It's good to see you appreciate the sacrifices your local PD makes.

I actually come from a family with a lot of cops. They do great and brave work but at the same time will tell you depending on them for your security in your home is f*cking stupid.

Sure - if you completely neglect all the home intrusions that never happen in the first place as a result of their efforts.

They rush to the scene as best they can but by then it's over. They just count the bodies and decide who to charge if anyone.

Really, is that all they do? Then go tell it to the cops in your family. Tell them the late nights they spend patrolling shitty neighborhoods or taking dangerous drunken morons off the roads don't do any good whatsoever - because all they do is count bodies, right?

I don't think I ever said that. They do their best to deal with the drunken morons and the rest of the rabble but in the serious life and death situations they simply aren't there to do anything about it. They arrive after the act has happened and a phone call was received at 911 and they mobilize. Sure they look for people that may be trouble but when trouble actually hits your home chances are a cop is nowhere to be seen. Even cops know their limited scope of actually intervening in a serious situation why don't you?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Never been in the military have you? A DI in their 30's is the exception, most are in their mid to upper 20's, male and female.

Yeah, like I need to be in the military to know that. Its called SARCASM you moron. Clearly there are exceptional people. The OP thinks there are only exceptional MEN, however. Fucks sake.

Why is it conservatives hold military service in such high regard and at the same time seek to deny it to as many people as possible regardless of their ability to do the job?

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

I've never served as a member of the military. So I think the rank of Colonel is probably higher than me when it comes to issues of the military.
BTW, what was your rank?

The point is they do jobs suitable to their abilities

Suitable to their abilities as individuals or suitable to the abilities of their sex?

, the job should set the standards not a bunch of PC pie in the sky asses.

I'm sorry, I had no idea that the rank of colonel was "PC pie in the sky ass". From now on I will refer to my deceased grandfather, who retired as a Lt. Colonel, as "PC pie in the sky ass Wood".

In combat arms failure cost lives, you don't get do overs.

Oh. Well obviously that must mean women shouldn't be allowed in combat. Its a catchy slogan! Just say that in reply to any argument, and you'll be right.

I was enlisted and spent 10 years in training and operations and BTW I was promoted more times than the Col, I'll leave it to you to speculate about my rank.

Of course you were. Enlisted men on average are promoted more often. The path from E-1 to E-4 in particular is much shorter in time than the path from O-1 to O-4. I'm not getting how that's relevant.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I actually come from a family with a lot of cops. They do great and brave work but at the same time will tell you depending on them for your security in your home is f*cking stupid.

Sure - if you completely neglect all the home intrusions that never happen in the first place as a result of their efforts.

They rush to the scene as best they can but by then it's over. They just count the bodies and decide who to charge if anyone.

Really, is that all they do? Then go tell it to the cops in your family. Tell them the late nights they spend patrolling shitty neighborhoods or taking dangerous drunken morons off the roads don't do any good whatsoever - because all they do is count bodies, right?

I don't think I ever said that.

You're right, you didn't.

They do their best to deal with the drunken morons and the rest of the rabble but in the serious life and death situations they simply aren't there to do anything about it. They arrive after the act has happened and a phone call was received at 911 and they mobilize. Sure they look for people that may be trouble but when trouble actually hits your home chances are a cop is nowhere to be seen. Even cops know their limited scope of actually intervening in a serious situation why don't you?

You (still) aren't counting the serious situations that do not even happen as a result of their tireless efforts.

 

[bucs90]

I actually come from a family with a lot of cops. They do great and brave work but at the same time will tell you depending on them for your security in your home is f*cking stupid.

Sure - if you completely neglect all the home intrusions that never happen in the first place as a result of their efforts.

They rush to the scene as best they can but by then it's over. They just count the bodies and decide who to charge if anyone.

Really, is that all they do? Then go tell it to the cops in your family. Tell them the late nights they spend patrolling shitty neighborhoods or taking dangerous drunken morons off the roads don't do any good whatsoever - because all they do is count bodies, right?

I don't think I ever said that. They do their best to deal with the drunken morons and the rest of the rabble but in the serious life and death situations they simply aren't there to do anything about it. They arrive after the act has happened and a phone call was received at 911 and they mobilize. Sure they look for people that may be trouble but when trouble actually hits your home chances are a cop is nowhere to be seen. Even cops know their limited scope of actually intervening in a serious situation why don't you?

Hmmm.

What about that civilian female cop that stopped the Fort Hood slaughter of our Army troops?
Or the Salt Lake City off duty cop who engaged the mall shooter, preventing countless deaths?
Or the Boston cops, who hunted down the terrorists (with help of citizens also) and shot it out with them, killed one, and captured a second?
Or the Times Square cop who investigated the car bomb?
Or the Virginia Tech cops, who rushed the chained doors, causing the gunman to panic and kill himself.....before killing dozens more than he already did?

I could give hundreds upon hundreds of examples of cops who got there in time. Many who stopped the crime before it even occurred....by stopping the crazies and crooks before they even got to a neighborhood to prey on folks.

You talk as if cops NEVER get there. Not true. It is true that they dont always get there on time. Hell, that was true BEFORE right wing mayors and governors nationwide slashed police staffing and funding. Its worse now.

And yes, for many people, arming oneself is the best option.

But we dont life in Afghanistan. It isn't necessary to pack heat here. Partly because of the cops. So a house with 3 18-year-old sorority girls living in downtown Charleston where I live? Nope. They dont have to worry about getting guns. They live carefree from that horrible thought of having to shoot an intruder. Because Charleston PD does an amazing job, and keeps many off the street, and has a fantastic response time.

It isnt 100% sure to work. But, the odds that you need a gun before a cop gets to you here is fairly small so long as you lock your doors and/or get an alarm.

But if the cops WEREN'T around, and crooks knew that cops wouldn't show up anytime that day, you'd have mass chaos.

I think you give far too little credit to local PD's in our country. Visit Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP) and see.

 

[bucs90]

Never been in the military have you? A DI in their 30's is the exception, most are in their mid to upper 20's, male and female.

Yeah, like I need to be in the military to know that. Its called SARCASM you moron. Clearly there are exceptional people. The OP thinks there are only exceptional MEN, however. Fucks sake.

Why is it conservatives hold military service in such high regard and at the same time seek to deny it to as many people as possible regardless of their ability to do the job?

Army colonel: Physical strength not the end-all, be-all of combat service - Washington Times

I've never served as a member of the military. So I think the rank of Colonel is probably higher than me when it comes to issues of the military.
BTW, what was your rank?

The point is they do jobs suitable to their abilities, the job should set the standards not a bunch of PC pie in the sky asses. In combat arms failure cost lives, you don't get do overs. I was enlisted and spent 10 years in training and operations and BTW I was promoted more times than the Col, I'll leave it to you to speculate about my rank.

100% agree. In PD academy, males and females both had to survive a hand to hand fight with a 200 lb man for 3:00 (avg time for backup to arrive) without losing their gun or being put into any lethal situation. If females couldnt survive it, they failed that portion of testing. Same with shooting. If females couldnt handle the .45, they failed. If they couldnt handle the reckless-but-controlled driving course in a crown vic, they failed.

Standards must meet the job requirement....not the ability of candidates.

 

[bucs90]

Sergeant Mike Wilson, Charlotte County Sheriff's Office, Florida

And other times they do get there on time, or, right in the middle of it. I pray for the friends and families of these brave men and women. The link is one of the most recent. Shot and killed last week responding to a husband who was trying to kill his wife.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yanno......................I served 20 years in the U.S. Navy from 1982 until 2002, and I'd met a lot of women who were serving with me during that time.

Some are willing to use the "girl" thing to say they couldn't do the same job that the men were doing because they were the fairer sex.

But they were in the minority....................they were pretty much the same as the guys using some kind of old injury as to why they couldn't work as hard as the others.

Mostly? I found that women in my same paygrade and same job description worked just as hard as I did, if not harder.

I remember a girl named Kathy P. who could throw 50 lb. boxes of paper just as well as I could, and she even made it a competition between herself and I.

Sorry, but women are just as able as men to serve in combat. Matter of fact, sometimes the women can be smarter than the men about how things should be done.

 

[OriginalShroom]

Funny how right wingers care so much about this now.

Because they've been "wimpifying" our police departments for years, and you guys have never cared. Yet, thousands of brave, competent women put on a badge, vest and gun every single night in every single city in America, and have done just fine.

Thats not the same, you say?

Well, as you read this, if you saw 2 armed thugs kicking at the front door of your neighbors home, who would you call?

A) The Marines
B) The Army
C) The Air Force
D) The Navy
E) The Police Department

So, if women are good enough to protect you HERE, why not THERE???

If you don't know the operational differences between those groups listed, you have no credibility in this discussion.