Ancient Evidence of Jesus From Non-Christian Sources

[daws101]

Yah, James and the church in Jerusalem had a bit of a different take.

I wonder if paul's sexual confusion had any impact on his pov.

I always wondered if the virgin birth could have happened because Joseph was ass-fucking Mary and some cum dribbled into her vagina?

 

[oldfart]

According to Paul..........

Yah, James and the church in Jerusalem had a bit of a different take.

I wonder if paul's sexual confusion had any impact on his pov.

Yah think? Paul had a lot of strange views on human sexuality. He was proud of his Roman citizenship and conflicted about his own heritage. It became a real conundrum, one I bailed on a few decades ago because it made my head hurt (and because when I realized I had no dog in the fight it all seemed less important). The Roman and Jewish views of God (or gods) not only differed on sexual morality, they differed on the relationship of individual and public religion. All this plays out in the middle of a power struggle between new non-Jewish converts and the Jewish Christians over whether Christians are to be a Jewish sect or a separate religion. Christianity was far more diverse in the first two centuries than it was later, when a canon had been agreed upon and all heresies suppressed.

 

[longknife]

As a deist, I believe Jesus existed but not the way his followers have organized themselves.

 

[LittleNipper]

As a deist, I believe Jesus existed but not the way his followers have organized themselves.

That is nice, but if Jesus is not the Christ, then we are all still dead in sin and will go to hell when we die.

 

[daws101]

As a deist, I believe Jesus existed but not the way his followers have organized themselves.

That is nice, but if Jesus is not the Christ, then we are all still dead in sin and will go to hell when we die.

last time I checked dead is dead..hell and heaven are both imaginary...

 

[LittleNipper]

As a deist, I believe Jesus existed but not the way his followers have organized themselves.

That is nice, but if Jesus is not the Christ, then we are all still dead in sin and will go to hell when we die.

last time I checked dead is dead..hell and heaven are both imaginary...

As is your purpose in life.

 

[daws101]

That is nice, but if Jesus is not the Christ, then we are all still dead in sin and will go to hell when we die.

last time I checked dead is dead..hell and heaven are both imaginary...

As is your purpose in life.

no more than yours.. the difference is I understand that we make meaning, it's not giving to us by a sky faire.
so by definition your purpose has no real purpose ..all the faith there is will not change that.

 

[longknife]

Let me make myself clear - I believe all "churches" have been bastardized from the original intent based upon the desire of men to have power over others.

Did Jesus have a "chief apostle" who was supposed to organize things?

The organization that followed was based upon local mores and traditions.

 

[surada]

Excerpt:

Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan’s advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9}

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food–but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10}

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny’s statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, “unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth.”{11} If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny’s letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus’ person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny’s reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the “love feast.”{12} This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing “ritual cannibalism.”{13} The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus’ teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

Evidence from Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul’s description of James in Galatians 1:19 as “the Lord’s brother.”{15} And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that “few scholars have questioned” that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}

As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” the relevant portion declares:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}

 

[ding]

I don't dispute that Jesus existed. Besides those references in the OP's link, there's the fact that James, the brother of Jesus, existed; so by inference.... The problem is the opening phrase in the link, "Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document." The NT, and the Bible, are loaded with contradictions and unreliable hear-say evidence.

We shouldn't even be calling it Christianity, since it's a total pagan re-write that should be called Paulism.

BTW, it's all but a given that they've found Jesus' grave and bones in Talpiot near Jerusalem. If that does stand up, it will show that Jesus, and John the Baptist, weren't trying to start a new religion, not even a new Jewish sect, they were just trying to cleanse the Temple, which brought about their deaths as heroic martyrs--nothing more.

24,000 written manuscripts say otherwise.

 

[ding]

This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

St. Paul said otherwise.

 

[surada]

St. Paul said otherwise.

Pliny wrote that. Not me.

 

[ding]

Pliny wrote that. Not me.

Ok. I wasn't criticizing you or Pliny. I was arguing that the early Christians did not think they were eating just bread and drinking just wine.

 

[surada]

Ok. I wasn't criticizing you or Pliny. I was arguing that the early Christians did not think they were eating just bread and drinking just wine.

Well, Pliny seems to be softening the accusation of cannibalism...

 

[JoeBlow]

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources - Probe Ministries

There were apparently several guys named Jesus preaching in the area at the time. No proof of any miracles, though. Or is there?

 

[Colin norris]

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources - Probe Ministries

Anyone who believe the events and slaughter in the old testement is a near complete idiot. If they read anything from a ministry which attempts to prove God exists, they then become a complete idiot.
Enjoy.

 

[ding]

Well, Pliny seems to be softening the accusation of cannibalism...

Right. But there's a third option he never considered which is it is the body and blood of Christ and it's not cannibalism. It's a concept as mysterious as God Himself. Speaking from personal experience communion is a powerful trans-formative phenomenon. It's how I share in His suffering and it alters the fabric of my existence.

 

[ding]

Anyone who believe the events and slaughter in the old testement is a near complete idiot. If they read anything from a ministry which attempts to prove God exists, they then become a complete idiot.
Enjoy.

And yet here you are discussing it.

I wouldn't expect you to understand or relate to a faith that is not your own any better than I could understand or relate to a faith not my own.

The major difference between you and me is that I am not arrogant enough to not make an attempt to understand and relate to a faith not my own.

You think you are harming others by disparaging them and their beliefs but in reality you are only harming yourself. I feel sorry for someone who has to tear down others to build himself up as you do.

 

[DudleySmith]

Right. But there's a third option he never considered which is it is the body and blood of Christ and it's not cannibalism. It's a concept as mysterious as God Himself. Speaking from personal experience communion is a powerful trans-formative phenomenon. It's how I share in His suffering and it alters the fabric of my existence.

Google the 'Margo' or 'Margo2' poster on various boards. You will find this 'Surada' poster is the same troll farm type posting that was used by the same multiple posters using the 'Margo' persona. The combined posters usually average from 60,000 to 120, 000 posts in 6 months to a year, on multiple boards and usually in the same time span. Don't know what handle they are using on other boards now, they may have changed names, but they will all be similar in content and trolling and disinformation rubbish.