America Where Are Your Won Tons?

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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
 

Silver Cat

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But has it really been tested? Yes, we know the missile the DF-21 works, that is not in question. However, has it ever once fired and hit a target moving in a random direction that is located and tracked from over the horizon? No, it has not.

In fact, it requires a large chain of things to happen, and all happen precisely. Including things that are just not possible. Such as being able to build an over-the-horizon RADAR system that can locate an object over a thousand kilometers away to within 50 meters of accuracy. And it then must be able to constantly update the course of the missile, which is traveling at MACH 8+. And be able to adjust it's course to an accuracy of 50 meters.

Oh, and do this against a target that is constantly moving and changing course, at 30+ knots. ANd still get through all of the defenses (both physical and ECM) to actually hit the target.

This thing has as of yet only been used against stationary targets on land. They have it a "carrier sized" target in the Gobi desert with it, but once again that is not a surprise because it is possible even with the original DF-21 missile. The target was not moving, and in their own missile range.

And yes, I know about that NOTAM. Once again, so what? It shows they did a missile test, that is all. Most speculation is that they fired it at one of the small islands that are scattered in that area, what does that prove? Once again, that they could hit a static target inside of an area that has tons of conventional RADAR coverage.

Not a moving target, not a target over the horizon.

This is why it has not been "tested". This is a "weapon system", and until the entire system is tested it is "untested". The DF-21 series of missiles is over 35 years old, nobody questions that the missile itself actually works. The big doubt is that the system itself will never work.

And until they can prove they can locate, target, then hit a moving target from over the horizon it will remain nothing more than a magic trick.

Not to mention the even bigger problem with this system. In flight, this is no different than the DF-21A/C missile. And those are armed with 500kt nuclear warheads. A great many believe that this weapon may not even exist at all, and simply be a cover to slow the reaction of the US for when it may decide to launch a nuke at one of our fleets. And even worse, if a group has already been given freedom to use it's own nukes they might respond with a nuke, no matter which variant of DF-21 has been launched at them.

But why you are taking a simple NOTAM and trying to scream it proves the weapon system works I have no idea.
First - they say, that it works, and, by the way they said that accuracy was significantly improved in 2018.
Second - it was bought by PLA, and buying rather big amount of unworking weapon is not something that you can keep in secret (especially in China).
Third - they have launched "Yaogan weixing" recon sattelites, some of them with radars, and we know they are searching and locating our ships and can adjust warheads.
And anyway, it is much better to be ready to fight strong enemy and find him weak, than prepare yourself to fight weak enemy and then find him strong.
 

Picaro

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The Pentagon's war gaming sees you losing in a naval war against China in ten years.

Get off your fat, fast food saturated asses and deal with this.

This article, along with many recent and similar others, is pure Chinese communist party propaganda aimed at demoralizing the average American; think Tokyo Rose. Only in these instances, our own U.S. "journalists" are spewing the anti-American military propaganda on behalf of our enemy, the pinko commie Chinks.

The final end of the CCP is a phone call and a few button presses away at any given moment. Ponder that. We (the US of A) were a sleeping giant awakened by the Japanese during WWII. Nearly eight decades later we (the American military) are a slumbering but ever vigilant demigod by comparison to any enemy who might disturb our peace. So try not to pay attention to the traitor press doing their best to sell out America. Believe me, we'll square them away soon enough.

"The sky is turning red
Return to power draws near
Fall into me, the sky's crimson tears
Abolish the rules made of stone"

--Slayer (Raining Blood)

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."
--
Julius Robert Oppenheimer
If the Red Chinese actually thought they could take us they wouldn't hesitate to do so the second they could win. They would much rather egg such tards as the Iranians and assorted Arab and African idiots to make big noises and do stupidly pointless provocations to test us than do much of that themselves, same as Putin does.

One thing we can do is start locking up these 'globalist' shitheads in Corporate boardrooms who keep using trade loopholes to sell the vermin our latest tech, like military satellites for one.
 

Silver Cat

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

 

Daryl Hunt

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

And then they get their asses handed to them in open battle by a bunch of war surplus equipped Vietnamese. On paper is just on paper.
 

Silver Cat

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

And then they get their asses handed to them in open battle by a bunch of war surplus equipped Vietnamese. On paper is just on paper.
Do you remember, who also was defeated by USSR-backed Vietnam?
Yes, Chinamen are bad soldiers, but if they will be backed by Russia, have technical and numerical superiority and fight not far from their houses... Yes, we'll have big problems there.
 

Daryl Hunt

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

And then they get their asses handed to them in open battle by a bunch of war surplus equipped Vietnamese. On paper is just on paper.
Do you remember, who also was defeated by USSR-backed Vietnam?
Yes, Chinamen are bad soldiers, but if they will be backed by Russia, have technical and numerical superiority and fight not far from their houses... Yes, we'll have big problems there.
The Chinese Vietnam war was over pretty quick. And it was done in open field combat. There was no shooting from the recesses. It was a knockdown dragout fight. It didn't involve the Cong. It was regulars all the way. And China got their asses handed to them quickly. Had the US openly attacked and invaded North Vietnam the war would have been much much different hence the forcing of the North to the Paris peace talks so quickly.

But NO ONE sane would want to invade China. Much like no one sane would try and invade Russia or the US. But, unlike the US, China and Russia are more suseptible to losing most of their industry and food production through either Nuclear or Conventional means and the forces are there to do it. Meanwhile, the US sits in a situation that it's NOT going to harmed nearly as bad since it's just harder to get there and the industry and food production is spread out.

Will the US even bother to invade China? Nope. Using conventional weapons just take them back to the Ming Dynasty.
 

Silver Cat

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

And then they get their asses handed to them in open battle by a bunch of war surplus equipped Vietnamese. On paper is just on paper.
Do you remember, who also was defeated by USSR-backed Vietnam?
Yes, Chinamen are bad soldiers, but if they will be backed by Russia, have technical and numerical superiority and fight not far from their houses... Yes, we'll have big problems there.
The Chinese Vietnam war was over pretty quick. And it was done in open field combat. There was no shooting from the recesses. It was a knockdown dragout fight. It didn't involve the Cong. It was regulars all the way. And China got their asses handed to them quickly. Had the US openly attacked and invaded North Vietnam the war would have been much much different hence the forcing of the North to the Paris peace talks so quickly.

But NO ONE sane would want to invade China. Much like no one sane would try and invade Russia or the US. But, unlike the US, China and Russia are more suseptible to losing most of their industry and food production through either Nuclear or Conventional means and the forces are there to do it. Meanwhile, the US sits in a situation that it's NOT going to harmed nearly as bad since it's just harder to get there and the industry and food production is spread out.

Will the US even bother to invade China? Nope. Using conventional weapons just take them back to the Ming Dynasty.
Ok.
1) We all are insane (in the your understanding of the term). So, this argument is just invalid.
2) Taiwan is a part of China, isn't it?
3) A war between two nuclear powers is a nuclear war. So, we are talking about nuclear war.
4) Do you have any ideas how to prevent bombed China becoming colony of Russia?
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "

And then they get their asses handed to them in open battle by a bunch of war surplus equipped Vietnamese. On paper is just on paper.

That was a long time ago mate, and the same Vietnamese who handed the US their asses on a plate.

Fuck the Vietnamese can fight.


Great Buddhists too.
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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You guys crack me up, you no more about US military capabilities in the future concerning the West Pacific than the Pentagon.

If you lot were in control China would be invading Taiwan right now.
This nonsense did not come from the DoD.

And I find it interesting that you can not dispute anything I or others said, so instead you simply resort to insults.

Fortunately the Pentagon, who did conduct these game outcomes and leak the results did so to get funding to address the strategic challenge.

Unlike you they do not believe just waving the American flag and chanting "we are number one" is a real military strategy to meet the growing Chinese threat.
Yes.
"The Chinese Communist Party’s military advances are real. Our @DeptofDefense is doing everything it can to make sure it understands this threat. President @realDonaldTrump will always keep us in a position where we can protect the American people. "


There you go, that is what I am talking about.

Take the threat seriously.

Speaking from Australia, we more than most need the US to take it seriously.
 

Silver Cat

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BTW, talking about "insanity". The new version of Putin's decree "About state politic of the nuclear deterrence" was published today. (delete "$$$")
http://publication.pravo$$$.gov.ru/Document/View/0001202006020040?index=0&rangeSize=1

It is very interesting document, most important part is about possible reasons to use nukes.
They don't use words "preemptive strike", but quite openly hint on it.
 

Silver Cat

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2) Taiwan is a part of China, isn't it?
What does it mean? Taiwan is China. Its official name is Chinese Republic.
They call themselves as "Chinese Republic", but they are not recognised by the main powers. And there is another, main part of China - "People's Republic of China", that pretend, of course, on "their rioted province".
Same story as with "Ukraine" and "Novorossia" (DPR+LPR). From the Russian POV, "Ukraine" is rioted province/sattelite of Russia, and from the Ukrainian PoV - DPR and LPR are "rioted" and "occupied" Ukrainian regions.
But it is not really matters. Taiwan is a part of "Chinese World", part of the great cultural space, as Australia is a part of "English world".
If Taiwan is the battlefield, PLA will have "fighting home" advantage, and US Forces - "foreign land" disadvantage.
 

Mushroom

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And yes, just a nice pic of Eurasian over-the-horizon radars:
View attachment 343738
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

OTH RADAR is nothing new, nothing new at all. However, it is only good for "Early Warning", not for targeting.

It is nowhere even close to being able to be used as a targeting system for this.

Same with Satellite RADAR. Accuracy is garbage, it is simply for tracking and locating.

Also, I do take China seriously. But I do not blow it completely out of proportion either. They have a great many strengths, and I have discussed them.

The DF-21D is not one of them. Still untested in any way that matters. The PLAN has no "Sea Legs", has no UNREP capability, very limited offensive strike capability.

I find it funny that over and over I bring up the actual factual and proven deficiencies in the PLAN and PLAF, and those are ignored as well as the problems involved in such systems, and others just throw up some kind of picture or blurb, and think that addresses them.

The DF-21 system is real, it works. Oh, I never doubt that. Actually locate a carrier with OTHRADAR to an accuracy of 50 meters, then be able to actually track it, target it, launch it then hit a moving target surrounded by other defensive ships? That is pure fantasy.

I got a bridge I can sell you if you want. Or a great bottle of Snake Oil that will cure cancer. Oh, and shoving Ben-Gay up your butt cures COVID-19.
 

Daryl Hunt

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And yes, just a nice pic of Eurasian over-the-horizon radars:
View attachment 343738
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

OTH RADAR is nothing new, nothing new at all. However, it is only good for "Early Warning", not for targeting.

It is nowhere even close to being able to be used as a targeting system for this.

Same with Satellite RADAR. Accuracy is garbage, it is simply for tracking and locating.

Also, I do take China seriously. But I do not blow it completely out of proportion either. They have a great many strengths, and I have discussed them.

The DF-21D is not one of them. Still untested in any way that matters. The PLAN has no "Sea Legs", has no UNREP capability, very limited offensive strike capability.

I find it funny that over and over I bring up the actual factual and proven deficiencies in the PLAN and PLAF, and those are ignored as well as the problems involved in such systems, and others just throw up some kind of picture or blurb, and think that addresses them.

The DF-21 system is real, it works. Oh, I never doubt that. Actually locate a carrier with OTHRADAR to an accuracy of 50 meters, then be able to actually track it, target it, launch it then hit a moving target surrounded by other defensive ships? That is pure fantasy.

I got a bridge I can sell you if you want. Or a great bottle of Snake Oil that will cure cancer. Oh, and shoving Ben-Gay up your butt cures COVID-19.
Hey watch it now. You trying to put me out of business? This troll is mine, all mine.
1591934517162.jpeg
 

Mushroom

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Hey watch it now. You trying to put me out of business? This troll is mine, all mine.
View attachment 349142
It often makes me sad how people find some kind of posting "on the Internet", and just believe everything it says. Now I understand why so many are taken in scams and get their identity stolen all the time. They read something, and just believe it without any actual critical thought applied to it. And if it is something they want to believe, the better.

Myself, I have been watching China for decades now. And one thing that has to be realized is that they will scream to the world that their equipment is the "best ever made", even before they actually build one! Those of us that watch their military R&D are aware of this. Tanks, aircraft, destroyers, they make a few, then often scrap it or sell it to somebody else because it does not work as they thought, and start work on the next "best ever".

Hell, they only in the last decade finally replaced a Korean War era tank with at least a fairly modern one as their most common tank in their inventory.

Most who post in here really do not know or understand what is really involved. Yes, China has some nifty toys. Little of it actually proven in real world situations. They also have an absolutely horrid logistics capability, and the PLAN is largely a joke, little more than a glorified Coast Guard in how it is used. Almost no Blue Water experience, almost no logistic capability to operate for long periods of time. Almost no experience in Fleet Operations.

Want to impress me? Let's see a small task force of 6 Chinese ships operate off of the Horn of Africa for 6 months. With the only supply coming from China. For us that is child's play, we have been doing much more than that since WWII. We have kept entire Carrier groups at sea for 18 months, no problem. China puts 3 destroyers off of Africa a few years ago, and within 2 months were crying they could not maintain them so far away for so long.

And what I find "trollish" is that none of these people even try to bring up these questions I raise. EIther they do not know the importance of these very critical topics, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, or they are just trolls and do not give a damn.

More an more, I am starting to think they are trolls. Because otherwise, I would basically be calling them idiots. Like what I immediately thought when somebody brought up Over The Horizon RADAR yet again.

We are talking about a supersonic missile that travels at MACH 5+. And needs to be accurate to within 50 meters. And he brings up a RADAR system that is accurate to within 20-50 kilometers. That is like trying to shoot a rocket to the moon with a telescope for guidance. Might as well try to use an X-Ray machine to guide a doctor in open heart surgery.

I guess the problem is that I actually know and understand what the technologies involved are as well as their limitations. And I keep trying to steer them to asking the right questions, and actually looking into the things they bring up, and their limitations.

But alas. You can lead a horse to knowledge, but you can't make him think. And few here want to think, they want to vomit up more nonsense they find from here and there, and not try to actually reason out what it really means.
 

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