America should change sides and support Palestine.

[Billo_Really]

You know being stupid is ok, but not being embarresed about it and letting everyone know how stupid you are like you do here every day is just plain painful to watch. What exactly do you think happened when the muslims laid seige to Jerusalem and conquered that land? You think they showed up and the Jews just said, hey, welcome, take what's our and make yourselves at home. Man you're a true dumbass.

Like I said, I don't give a shit about what happened 2000 years ago.

It has nothing to do with the state of Israel.

 

[nesta]

funnily enough what allegedly happened 2000 years ago is the whole basis for the existence of israel.

 

[nesta]

Wrong dumbass, on both counts. It's no black mark on this nation, it is what it is. The Indians where a war like and savage peope and we had no choice but to subjugate them in order to build this nation, tough shit for them that they didn't get with the program. As for the violence starting with the zionists, wrong against you stupid sob. The violence started when the muslims made war on the Jews and Christians by invading the Holy Lands, laying siege to Jerusalem and then conquering the land adn forcfully converting or enslaving those they didn't murder. This was thousands of years before there ever even was a such thing as a "Zionist".

The Indians where a war like and savage peope ...

Colonialists always say that about the natives. That is a justification to throw them off their land.

It's a fact of American Indian history slick, not colonial history. They, the Indians, where a warrior breed. Their long history of internecine warfare is part of THEIR oral histories, much like the internecine warfare among many of the European tribes. The fact is that the white man was just a far more advanced and superior peoples and the Indians couldn't beat them. If they could have, the results would have been much different than they are today. We, the white European, at least placed them on reservations and fed, clothed and housed them, all the way up until today. The Indians had a history of treating our settlers quite barbarically, so it's doubtful they would have been as merciful in victory as we were. We are the conquerers, we need no justification for throwing them off their land. ALL lands and ALL people's where at one time or another conquered by others, it's just a fact of life.

all that is irrelevant though, the fact is it was their land and you conducted a genocide of them in order to take it. thats a fact.

 

[jtpr312]

wrong dumbass, on both counts. It's no black mark on this nation, it is what it is. The indians where a war like and savage peope and we had no choice but to subjugate them in order to build this nation, tough shit for them that they didn't get with the program.

so you think might makes right? You think you can just impose your will on others and the only option they have is to take it? You think you can go over to someone's home, or place where they've been living for generations and start telling them what to do? Or are one of those who believe in that american exceptionalism garbage and everything is okay if we do it? i believe that history is chock full of nations and peoples invading, conquering and subjugating other peoples and that this is often what makes advancement and civilization possible, as certainly was the case in the european's conquest of the united states.

as for the violence starting with the zionists, wrong against you stupid sob. The violence started when the muslims made war on the jews and christians by invading the holy lands, laying siege to jerusalem and then conquering the land adn forcfully converting or enslaving those they didn't murder. This was thousands of years before there ever even was a such thing as a "zionist".

what happened 2000 years ago, don't mean shit today. Prior to the late 1800's, there were no major incidents of violence in that area, until zionists started pouring in and stripping the people already living there of their land rights. You can't move to an area and just walk up and take someone's home. you're right, it don't mean shit today, and today the jews have re-conquered their anscestoral homelands and have repeatedly defended that homeland from muslim invasions and aggression and will continue to do so for a long, long time to come. The arabs that live within the borders of the jewish lands should thank their god that they live there, for most live better under jewish rule than the vast majority of arabs live under arabic rule.


here's a thought, why don't you, right now, walk across the street, go into the first house you come to, without knocking, just walk in and whomever you meet there, start barking orders at them to get out, because this was your great gradma's house and your here to claim your ancestrial home. Then come back here and tell us how it went. your strawman argument won't work here slick. We aren't talking about my grandma's house, which was legally sold, but rather about lands that the arabs stole from the jews by force of arms and that were retaken by the jews by force of arms.

btw, you're in a "clean debate forum", you'll need to call me "dumbass" somewhere else, but not here. Or are you going to go with your current mo and tell the mods that you've made new rules for this forum and if they don't like your program, then they can just shove it? i didn't realize i was in the clean debate forum nor did i realize that pointing out one's ignorance and insistance on acting like an ass was being "unlcean" or uncivil, but feel free to run and whine to a moderator if you'd like

.

 

[Katzndogz]

What happened 2000 years ago is meaningless when the liberals need for it to be meaningless. When liberals need for it to be important, then what happened 2000 years ago becomes vital. For instance, palestine aside, liberals are happy to drag out the Crusades as justification for killing Christians today.

 

[Political Junky]

Then who could object to Native Americans claiming their land back?

 

[jtpr312]

They are in their own country.

They've been living there for over a 1000 years.

The Jews have had a conitunous presense there since at least 1200BC, the muslims didn't get there until 641AD.

So, there was nobody living there but Jews until 641AD?

No, there were others, but it was a Jewish nation for thousands of years prior to 641.

 

[jtpr312]

BFD! In 1948, arabs were the majority landowners in the area.



I don't know if this is your position, but generally speaking, people migrating into an area, do not automatically have more rights than the people already living there. And what happened 2000 years ago, has no legal justification today, nor did have in 1948.

reallly? Tell that to the American Indians slick. As for "legal justification", the arabs attacked Israel, Israel, while defending against that attack, took that land. That's all the legal justification" they need.

in light of the holocaust, i don't really think you want to go with the "might makes right" argument. In light of the fact that the might of the allied armies put a stop to the holocaust and the pigs that carried it out, I don't think your analogy fits very well.

as for native americans, that dispossession began 400 years ago and is a little bit hard to undo. we treated them wrong, and i think the reparations they are due falls far to short but they have nothing to do with the failed state of israel. Nope they don't, and as for the Indians, they made war on innocent settlers, not to mention many have been living on the tax payer's teat for generations, so I have little sympathy for them.

but let me get this right. you think native americans have a right to rise up and kick the people of european ancestry out of the americas. i mean, that's OK with me. i did something good for a local tribal group and was made a member. i don't have any federal rights or anything but i do have tribal rights. it was a great honour...so i'm good. If they could have they would have done so long ago, they can't, so it's a moot point.

when will you be moving to israel and what is the weather like in maryland this time of year? just PM me when i can move in. thanks. Weather's nice here, but no plans to move to Israel, why would I, I'm not Jewish, I'm American.

.

 

[jtpr312]

Colonialists always say that about the natives. That is a justification to throw them off their land.

It's a fact of American Indian history slick, not colonial history. They, the Indians, where a warrior breed. Their long history of internecine warfare is part of THEIR oral histories, much like the internecine warfare among many of the European tribes. The fact is that the white man was just a far more advanced and superior peoples and the Indians couldn't beat them. If they could have, the results would have been much different than they are today. We, the white European, at least placed them on reservations and fed, clothed and housed them, all the way up until today. The Indians had a history of treating our settlers quite barbarically, so it's doubtful they would have been as merciful in victory as we were. We are the conquerers, we need no justification for throwing them off their land. ALL lands and ALL people's where at one time or another conquered by others, it's just a fact of life.

all that is irrelevant though, the fact is it was their land and you conducted a genocide of them in order to take it. thats a fact.

So what? And it's not irelevent seeing as how this nation is STILL called the United States, and the Indians were given reservations to live on, and allowed to suck the tax payer's teat, out of the kindness of their victor's hearts, so all in all I think they got off pretty good.

 

[Billo_Really]

As for "legal justification", the arabs attacked Israel, Israel, while defending against that attack, took that land. That's all the legal justification" they need.

It all depends on when you start the clock.

Someone moves into your neighborhood and immediately treats you like you have no rights at all. They build a fence across your front lawn in such away that you can't back your car out of the driveway. And everytime you come close to the fence that they built on your property, they start shooting at you.

How are you going to react to that?

 

[jtpr312]

As for "legal justification", the arabs attacked Israel, Israel, while defending against that attack, took that land. That's all the legal justification" they need.

It all depends on when you start the clock.

Someone moves into your neighborhood and immediately treats you like you have no rights at all. They build a fence across your front lawn in such away that you can't back your car out of the driveway. And everytime you come close to the fence that they built on your property, they start shooting at you.

How are you going to react to that?

We're not discussing your little fantasy world, we're discussing the Jewish/arab problem in Israel and your little analogy doesn't even come close to fitting the facts.

 

[Billo_Really]

i believe that history is chock full of nations and peoples invading, conquering and subjugating other peoples and that this is often what makes advancement and civilization possible, as certainly was the case in the european's conquest of the united states.

Another one of these "we had to destroy the city in order to save it" speeches.

This might have been true for the history of mankind on earth, but that all changed after WWII.

you're right, it don't mean shit today, and today the jews have re-conquered their anscestoral homelands and have repeatedly defended that homeland from muslim invasions and aggression and will continue to do so for a long, long time to come. The arabs that live within the borders of the jewish lands should thank their god that they live there, for most live better under jewish rule than the vast majority of arabs live under arabic rule.

Say what? How does "jew only" roads benefit arabs? How is having your home bulldozed down in the middle of the night with only a half-hours notice, a benefit to arabs? How is constantly being demonized, like the nazis treated the jews, a benefit to arabs? How is being considered sub-human, a benefit to arabs? Israel is a racist, apartheid state, that wants to wipe out all the arabs in the area, so they can have their own version of an Aryian nation.

your strawman argument won't work here slick. We aren't talking about my grandma's house, which was legally sold, but rather about lands that the arabs stole from the jews by force of arms and that were retaken by the jews by force of arms.

Prove it. People were living there a thousand years. Then zionists migrated in and drove out over 700,000 arabs with the use of jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

i didn't realize i was in the clean debate forum nor did i realize that pointing out one's ignorance and insistance on acting like an ass was being "unlcean" or uncivil, but feel free to run and whine to a moderator if you'd like.

How you react to my posts, has more to do with you, than me. All I was doing was flashing my headlights as I passed by, because yours were not on.

BTW, don't report people, nor do I put anyone on ignore. I can handle what people say. I don't need others fighting my battles for me.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jews have had a conitunous presense there since at least 1200BC, the muslims didn't get there until 641AD.

So, there was nobody living there but Jews until 641AD?

No, there were others, but it was a Jewish nation for thousands of years prior to 641.

Who were those other people?

How many were there?

Where did they go?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The greatest failure of Carter's Presidency, I feel, was the failure to promote the development of 'local' energy sources. The 1973 (yes, before Carter) oil embargo from OPEC *should* have awakened us to the problem.

Whoever comes up with the alternative to current combustion tchnology to produce *electricity* is going to rule the century after this one: the transportation is only TEN Percent of the usage. The least efficient thing one can do with crude oil is burn it for fuel : ((

Did you forget the rules on this board?

 

[PaulS1950]

You know, the Jews that settled in Israel had to build the entire country - there was little there when they were provided ownership. Why don't the Palestinians try that approach instead of trying to fight a war? The Jews did it while the rest of the region made it harder than embargos and road blocks. They never once started a war but they won every one that they fought.
The palestinians seem to want it handed to them on a silver platter - oh and they want the Jews out or dead. Maybe they would get more respect if they spent their energy on building a country instead of trying to destroy one.

 

[georgephillip]

You know, the Jews that settled in Israel had to build the entire country - there was little there when they were provided ownership. Why don't the Palestinians try that approach instead of trying to fight a war? The Jews did it while the rest of the region made it harder than embargos and road blocks. They never once started a war but they won every one that they fought.
The palestinians seem to want it handed to them on a silver platter - oh and they want the Jews out or dead. Maybe they would get more respect if they spent their energy on building a country instead of trying to destroy one.

How do you expect Palestinians to "build their country" when Jews uproot and burn their orchards, bulldoze their homes and businesses, and use Arab children for target practice?

 

[Billo_Really]

You know, the Jews that settled in Israel had to build the entire country - there was little there when they were provided ownership.

Bullshit! There was over a half-million arabs living there that owned 70% of the land.

Why don't the Palestinians try that approach instead of trying to fight a war?

They're not trying to fight a war.

They're resisting foreign aggression in their homeland.

The Jews did it while the rest of the region made it harder than embargos and road blocks. They never once started a war but they won every one that they fought.

WTF you talking about?

Israel started the last 6 wars its been in.

The palestinians seem to want it handed to them on a silver platter - oh and they want the Jews out or dead. Maybe they would get more respect if they spent their energy on building a country instead of trying to destroy one.

They can't build anything. They're a population under the control of a belligerent occupation. The only thing they can do, is what Israel allows them to do. In Gaza, they can't even repair the buildings that were destroyed from air strikes, because Israel will not allow building materials into the area.

 

[zakdavis]

So, responding to getting shot at is starting a war? News to me.

P.S. I'm not talking about repression and all that other jazz, because I really don't care. I just want to know how responding to an Intfada is starting a war.

 

[Indofred]

So, responding to getting shot at is starting a war? News to me.

P.S. I'm not talking about repression and all that other jazz, because I really don't care. I just want to know how responding to an Intfada is starting a war.

Read your history. The Israeli side started the war with acts of terrorism. It's well documented so I'm sure you can google the string of bombings and shootings the fledgling Israeli terrorists were guilty of.

 

[Billo_Really]

So, responding to getting shot at is starting a war? News to me.

P.S. I'm not talking about repression and all that other jazz, because I really don't care. I just want to know how responding to an Intfada is starting a war.

The 45 year belligerent occupation of Palestinian land, is an act of war.

The 6 year siege on Gaza, is an act of war.

Shooting at Palestinian fishermen, farmers and anyone who comes within a 100 meters of that Iron Curtain, is an act of war.

Violating sovereign Palestinian air space on a daily basis with un-manned drones, is an act of war.