America should change sides and support Palestine.

[Indofred]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

 

[Meathead]

The thinking is the same that got Obama re-elected. Not exactly free stuff, but the equivalent on a national level. The downside would be the same as well, a loss of self-respect.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

 

[Lumpy 1]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

 

[Indofred]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. .

Well, guidance systems are so poor, most fall onto fields or in the sea but they can target a pizza queue.
So, excluding the emotive lies, can you explain why support for Palestine instead of Israel would hurt the US?

 

[waltky]

Granny says, "Dat's right - Israel givin' Hamas a thwackin' fer flingin' dem missiles at Tel Aviv & Ja'rusalem...

Israeli air strikes hit Hamas HQ in Gaza, death toll hikes to 33
Saturday 17 Nov 2012 - Israeli air strikes shell the cabinet headquarters of Gaza's Hamas government, the group said early Saturday, with eyewitnesses reporting extensive damage to the building

Israeli air strikes hit the cabinet headquarters of Gaza's Hamas government early Saturday. Later, an Israeli air strike killed three Palestinians in the central Gaza Strip, medics said, with Palestinian security sources confirming they were Hamas militants. The latest deaths raised the overall death toll in Gaza to 33 as a relentless Israeli air campaign against Gaza militants entered its fourth straight day. Friday, Tel Aviv called up thousands more reservists in readiness for a potential ground war. The Israeli military said it had sealed off all the main roads around the Gaza border, declaring the area a closed military zone, in the latest sign that Israel's patience with the rocket fire was at an end and it was poised to launch its first ground offensive on the territory since 2008-9.

The Hamas government said its cabinet headquarters was targeted with four strikes, and witnesses reported extensive damage to the building. "The IDF (army) has targeted (Hamas prime minister) Ismail Haniya's headquarters in Gaza," an Israeli army spokesman told AFP. "Over the past six hours, the IDF targeted 85 more terror sites," the military spokesperson's official Twitter account said. "The headquarters was completely destroyed and neighbouring houses were damaged as a result of the barbaric Israeli bombing," a Hamas official told AFP.

The raid on the building came as Israel renewed strikes across Gaza, bombing the headquarters of the Hamas police force in western Gaza City and the government's internal security headquarters in the north of the city. In the northern Jabalia camp, a strike left at least five people injured from the same family, according a source at the Kamal Odwan hospital. An AFP correspondent earlier reported seeing tanks massed along the Gaza-Israel frontier, and a steady stream of reservists arriving throughout the day Friday. President Barack Obama reiterated US support for Israel's right to defend itself during a call with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the conflict in Gaza.

Israeli air strikes on Gaza on Friday night killed six Palestinians, raising the toll in two days of violence to 30, a Hamas health ministry spokesman said. An Israeli military spokesman said one strike destroyed a Hamas military drone production workshop. Israeli ministers approved the call-up of as many as 75,000 reservists as Netanyahu held late evening talks at the defence ministry in Tel Aviv with his inner circle, Channel Two television reported. The military wing of the Islamist Hamas movement that rules Gaza said it fired the rocket at Jerusalem, the first from the territory ever to strike the outskirts of the Holy City. It marked a major escalation by Hamas in the face of a deadly pounding since Wednesday by Israeli aircraft that has sparked outrage across the Arab and Islamic world. A rocket attack also killed three Israelis.

MORE

 

[Indofred]

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

So, are you saying Israel's US supplied nuclear weapons would be a threat to America if the US stopped support for Israel?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. .

Well, guidance systems are so poor, most fall onto fields or in the sea but they can target a pizza queue.
So, excluding the emotive lies, can you explain why support for Palestine instead of Israel would hurt the US?

I am sure one could have made a similar argument about Japan in 1941. I mean we were making a lot of money off selling Oil and metal to Japan.

As for pizza parlors Hamas used suicide bombers on buses and pizza parlors full of teenagers.

 

[Meathead]

I don't see Obama that concerned with the issue, but his more radical followers think that 50% of the vote gave them a mandate to change basic tenants of American foreign policy. The OP's question as a hypothetical exercise is valid, as a practical matter, it is a non-starter.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

So, are you saying Israel's US supplied nuclear weapons would be a threat to America if the US stopped support for Israel?

No the ultimate conflagration of the middle-east is more likely.

btw.. when was the end of the world as we know it supposed to be..12/21/2012 I'm thinkin.

 

[sealadaigh]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

what america should do is support a just and peaceful settlement or get out of the picture and that peaceful settlement should begin with UN resolution 181 as a starting point in negotiating borders.

HAMAS will not be defeated and they are not going anywhere so america should bring them to the negotiating table with no preconditions. there will be no solution without HAMAS. israel knows this and reuses to negotiate with them which, coincidentally, allows them to continue their illegal settlement building.

israel should release marwan barghouti to lead the palestinian negotiating team, provided HAMAS and the PLO agree, which i am sure they would. of course, israel won't do that because, coincidentally, it would mean a cessation of illegal settlement building which is contrary to israel's intentions.

the downside is that american jews, who have been putting their nickels and dimes in those little blue cans since maybe forever, have an unrealistic idea that israel need include judea and samaria, or the west bank which is a necessity for a viable palestinian homeland, and yhey are willing to sacrifice untold jewish and palestinian lives so that they can have their perect little paradise, complete with a ski resort on stolen syrian land.

not much of a downside if you ask me.

one may also want to comsider the fact that, as the surrounding arab countries rise up and struggle for a democracy, we are going to look awfully foolish supporting a failed colonial enterprise.

america should embrace the principles that made us great, and cunduct ourselves in such a manner in the mideast. it is about time.

 

[sealadaigh]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

israel will not defeat HAMAS, and HANAS represents a large portion of the palestinian people. they need to be at the table. they need to be part of the negotiations.

 

[sealadaigh]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. .

Well, guidance systems are so poor, most fall onto fields or in the sea but they can target a pizza queue.
So, excluding the emotive lies, can you explain why support for Palestine instead of Israel would hurt the US?

I am sure one could have made a similar argument about Japan in 1941. I mean we were making a lot of money off selling Oil and metal to Japan.

As for pizza parlors Hamas used suicide bombers on buses and pizza parlors full of teenagers.

and israel and/or israelis drops bombs on apartment buildings full of children, commits war crimes by using certain weapons illegally violates international law constantly, and commits acts of genocide as defined by the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide...

and where does this two sidedd litany of sins get us. nowhere.

HAMAS is not defeated and they represent a lot of people. to exclude them from any part in negotiating and planning a future palestinian state is folly.

 

[Meathead]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

 

[Lumpy 1]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was an Al-Queda weenie sucking tour by Obama...

 

[sealadaigh]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

al-queda represents whom? al-queda.

sinn fein was a proscribed organisation and the UK sat down with them. and we ended up with the good friday/belfast agreement.

but that is fine. the conflict will continue in a war where israel cannot even afford one defeat, and they will be fighting an enemy that cannot be defeated.

israel's intransience on negotiating will lead to one or the other peoples being pushed into the sea, and either way, israel loses.

another thing to consider is that, if israel continues as they are doing, there is probably going to be a backlash against jewish people world wide.

israel can negotiate from a position of strength now, or they can negotiate from a poition of weakness later.

 

[Meathead]

When Hamas is ready to sit on the table, Israel will. Israel will not sit down with any entity whose goal is Israel's annihilation.

From the Hamas platform:

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the

international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all

contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing

any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the

nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the

movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the

banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is

the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

So I ask you, why would Israel bother?

 

[sealadaigh]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was an Al-Queda weenie sucking tour by Obama...

lol...well, that probably isn't an appropriate comment for the CDZ, but i sometimes have to remind myself where i am too. that palestine/israel board gets in the blood, and there is plenty of itt being spilled over there.

i would be surprised if there were such a tour. our president is made of sterner stuff.

the election is over and obama won. i think, as americans, we need to support him. we can still disagree with him but if this country continues to pull their feet when it comes to adressing issues based upon who is elected president, we are going nowhere but down a big rabbit hole.

 

[sealadaigh]

When Hamas is ready to sit on the table, Israel will. Israel will not sit down with any entity whose goal is Israel's annihilation.

From the Hamas platform:

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the

international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all

contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing

any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the

nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the

movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the

banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is

the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

So I ask you, why would Israel bother?

there is an implicit nullification of that portion of the charter in the fact that HAMAS is willing to sit down and negotiate.

haniyeh has distanced himself from the charter, as have other leading HAMAS figures, to include the recently assassinated al-jabari.

i would never ever suggest we change our declaration of independence to accomodate our current relationship with great britain.

here is what wiki says about the charter...

Relevance of the Charter in the 21st centuryBritish diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006 as part of their political program".[8] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, “It’s a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision.”[14] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[6]

Dr. Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas) has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.He further states that "the Israelis have, for example, translated the charter to several languages, English and French included, intentionally perverting the substance of its tenets to suit their purposes. Those aims were to market its fraudulent translation to as many Western politicians, academics and media channels as possible; and therefore make it easier to claim security concerns as the basis for their legal infractions. The fear-mongering is designed to horrify the West so much that it turns a blind eye to Israels crimes against humanity which contravene international law".[13]

In a further move away from their charter Hamas have stated according to Agence France-Presse and Al Jazeera "the question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people."[15][16] However many remain sceptical of Hamas's new stance, and view at as a ploy to hide its true agenda, "but it is equally true that the “new” discourse of diluted religious content—to say nothing of the movement’s increasing pragmatism and flexibility in the political domain—reflects genuine and cumulative changes within Hamas."[7]

Hamas Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a peace is not achieved by people dragging their feet. it is only achieved by negotiation with ALL interested parties.

 

[Indofred]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was an Al-Queda weenie sucking tour by Obama...

Perhaps you can explain how that is anything to do with the question laid out in the OP.
I'm serious, America's enemies are almost all down to American intervention, in the middle east, all of them down to intervention in Israel.

If the US stopped funding Israel, all those enemies would disappear, almost overnight.