America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

America was founded as a Christian nation. In every country on this globe, the majority of the citizens have a concept of right and wrong. Whether you live in a monarchy, democracy, republic, oligarchy, socialist, communist, or any other system of government, the majority of the people have a sense of their right and wrong. Every country develops its own customs and heritage.

As an example, there are nine countries where cannibalism is still practiced.

Nine places across the world where CANNIBALISM is still alive and well

I have referred to the man in my neighborhood who was convicted after doing what is called Female Genitalia Mutilation on his two daughters. It's perfectly legal and normal where this man is from.

The average American of traditional values (based on Christianity) rejects such concepts as socialism, universal health care, gun control, communism, etc., etc. So, we protected our Rights from the outset. In previous posts we looked at the state constitutions and their connection to the leaders believing in Christian values by way of an oath stating that they believe. There was no religious test, no church membership required, and no direct requirement that would lead anyone to believe that non-Christians could not be a part of the body politic.

When our soldiers go to Muslim countries, it has been reported that U.S. servicewomen were forced to wear Muslim scarves to show "cultural sensitivity."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...o-their-culture/2011/02/18/AB6jphH_story.html

Due to laws passed over the last 60 years roughly, people coming to America can do whatever in the Hell they want because we have to respect their customs and their religions. They can become a part of the body politic and, in spite of the original intent of the framers, these people can change our form of government with a popularity vote. And, at the end of the day, it stems from a false belief that we are a "secular" nation - though you cannot find that word in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States, any of the earliest state constitutions. It is not an argument made during the debates and means nothing.

I have to do a second part of this just in case anyone would like to challenge the substantive portions of this post.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

America is founded as a Christian nation...

The facts are that the overwhelming majority of founders / framers were Christian. Yeah, we all know. The Masons will claim THEY founded America. We see their symbols on our money. Fascists think they founded America; there is a some fasci on the back of the dime. Atheists and idiots say we are a secular nation based upon a private letter with the meaning taken out of context and a treaty that was repealed and replaced in order not to give a false impression just to allay the fears of Muslims.

When challenged, the secularists try to be coy and admit to some of the facts:

1) Over 98 percent of the people who forged our founding documents were Christian

2) The children were taught Christian values from Christian textbooks

3) The overwhelming majority of our nation's earliest leaders from the Mayflower to the social overthrow of the United States in 1962 were Christian

4) Our country was founded on the premise that we had a special destiny

5) The United States is the only country in the world that has a Constitution prohibiting the government from infringing on the unalienable Rights of the people

6) Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which came to us from Anglo Saxon law which is derived from Christianity

7) When the people were observing the customs and practicing the values of our forefathers, the United States became the greatest nation in the annals of recorded history

8) Our treatment of women and children and the high regard we place on them and life in general are indicative of our Christian heritage

9) Our willingness to be the leader of the world by sending our soldiers to die for the Liberty and Freedom of others is unparalleled - a testament to our beliefs as a people - a nation founded by Christians

10) Only in America can one come here and know that our Constitution will protect their Rights to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. The come here assured that nobody will attack them on account of their religion and escape. There are dire consequences.

Our heritage; our customs and practices of right and wrong are rooted in the Bible because Christians wrote the original rules and we are still (in theory) governed by that Constitution with the common law used as the tool to judge and apply that law, consistent with our principles...

I could go on and on, but we have much more to discuss.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23954712 01

. There are those who think that the "Enlightenment" period as they call it, somehow marginalized Christianity.

And there is me. I do not think the Enlightenment period marginalized Christianity at all.

The Enlightenment has enhanced Christianity as verified by you when you endorse the notion that an enlightened Jefferson is still a member of Christendom.

America was founded on a confluence of Christianity and Enlightenment principles. We as a nation do not exist as with one and without the other. Our fellow poster explains:

• Fort Fun Indiana, post: 23947616, “What made us better than other countries, of course, was the deference to secular and scientific enlightenment, instead of deference to iron age hoo-ha.

Jefferson uniquely embodied the enlightenment into the founding of America. Our third president was absorbed by it;

• Enlightenment Influences Jefferson was born in 1743, the son of Peter Jefferson, a Virginia surveyor without pretensions to wealth or title. After studying Latin and Greek in Albemarle County with Anglican priests, who apparently failed to teach him the rudiments of a Christian faith, Jefferson entered the College of William and Mary where he remained a student until his graduation in 1762. It was in Williamsburg that the intelligent and highly impressionable young man came under the decisive influence of the only lay member of the faculty, Dr. William Small, professor of mathematics and natural philosophy. Small had recently come over from Scotland to teach at the Anglican college, and had brought with him many of the leading ideas of the Scottish Enlightenment, ideas which challenged religious orthodoxy and promoted the empirical philosophy of Francis Bacon (1561-1626) and John Locke (1632-1704).1.
  Catholicism and the American Founding Natural law, common law, natural rights, and localism—all so dear to the Founding—existed in 1776, simply put, because of the Catholic Church. July 3, 2019 Bradley J. Birzer

And you have made the case that Jefferson, a leading founding father, does not marginalize Christianity, so we agree:

If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian. I am not going to argue what has been established as fact..

It has been established as fact Jefferson is a Christian. I add to that by saying Jefferson brought enlightenment into Christianity along with the birth of a nation - America.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#663 23954973

1) Over 98 percent of the people who forged our founding documents were Christian.

(A) Do you have a list by name of the 2 % that were not Christian?

 

[Correll]

I'm sorry, I just want to make sure I am not reading into this, meaning you do not intend.

Your point is that modern Christians, in your view, don't or should NOT, care about the country being founded as a "mono culture" because modern Christians, especially "hispanic, black and liberal" ones, are comfortable with a "multi-cultural society"?

Modern Christians of all races, Denominations and background, in my view would have no curiosity or interest about Porter Rockwell’s argument on whether their original monocultural (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) nation was ”founded as a Christian Nation” or if it was founded as a result of the “convergence“ of the Biblical Christian Faith in the hearts of the citizenry “with” the higher educated, intellectual genius of the men who founded this great nation. The founding fathers were great men (some flaws) Many of whom were not walking the same religious/ spiritual/ philosophical walk as the citizenry back then, and the Christians of today.

It’s my personal opinion that most Christians are OK Separation of church and State exactly as it sounds. Why should we go back looking at people for principles and values in a place where Protestant Christians went so far as to kicking Catholic Christians out of their colony,

The society back then was agrarian and it was pioneering on land, 95 percent farmed their little piece of land.

Society today has bigger fish to fry than the minnow that Porter Rockwell has brought to attention here.

I think Christianity has moved forward to influencing and serving in a more pluralistic multi cultural society in our 21st Century than the simpler agrarian mono cultural society in the 18th Century that four score later found itself in civil war.

So, it is clear then that your opposition to his conclusion is not based on the facts of the FOunding of the Nation, but on how you see that fact possibly being used by people you don't like to advance agendas you do not agree with.


This is where you admit that the "simpler agrarian mono cultural society of the 18th century" DID, found this nation as a Christian Nation,

and then you can state to be clear, that that in no way means that you support anything he wants to use that fact for, or anything he wants to build on that, you will certainly be ready to challenge and refute those ideas. And you can state that you are confident you will be able to do that.



To be extra clear, the way you keep bringing up that the nation had a civil war, is highly indicative of thinking that is not based on the historical events of the time, but moral judgment of the people involved.

 

[ding]

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation

We "formed a more perfect union" is not creating a nation. It was a coming together of sovereign states = plural, as in more than one, which was recognized and called "in order to form a more perfect union"- we weren't "founded"- a constitution was established. A set of rules called laws. A union of sovereign states agreed to the constitution. I say these things because the argument has become an esoteric pissing contest and if we get absolutely technical for discernment. then, by god be totally technical. No where in the preamble was any religion mentioned, or values or virtues- they were of a generic persuasion to explain WHY the constitution was established as the Supreme Law-

Again, I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded based upon Christian values and principles. Not religious dogma per se but the successful behaviors which Western Civilization was built upon.

Christian values and principles were imbedded in every aspect of colonial life from education in the grade schools and universities; and in our courts and in our laws. You can’t separate the Christian heritage and culture anymore than you can separate any other country’s heritage and culture from theirs.

The beliefs of the founding fathers was heavily influenced by the beliefs of Locke who’s beliefs were heavily influenced by Genesis. The foundation of natural rights has a biblical basis.

The more perfect union you speak of was securing each person's Creator endowed rights to life, liberty, and property. To a man the Founders believed that natural rights are not created by government but exist anterior to it and that governments are in fact created to “secure these rights.”

 

[ding]

Obviously christian laws and principles, so believed, failed. You guys are as bad as jews- both claim to be special and neither are- you're just people with strong beliefs- I too am a people and I too have strong beliefs- ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL-
E.V.E.R.Y. one- the Christian god is as malevolent as the Islamist and Jewish god- none are benevolent- as in charitable- none protect - as in take care of- ALL demand the streets will be paved with gold or eternity is spent in fire IF disbelieving- it doesn't matter what who believed when- the experiment concludes, as Jefferson believed, that we can govern ourselves- we get what we deserve- we deserve to be laughed at because of the hypocrites and believers act with Double Standards as their foundation- yes, Christians. I have yet to meet a decent christian and I've been around a long time- only 2 I've met came close- one was very humble the other very clever- BOTH respected me. Neither was dogmatic. Which is what religion AND politics is about- cow the listener with rhetoric- to cow is to coerce- that is threat of force (eternity in fire) by a mighty something or other, preferably a christian something or other since christians are more influenced by streets paved with gold vs virgins- and Jews have their opinion too- it's ALL too esoteric, (intentionally confusing), so that only a few wish to participate- demeaning the non-believer- to demean is to disrespect- begets begets.

I don’t believe it failed. You need to do a full accounting. By any objective measure America has been a force for good.

 

[ding]

23948002

I think you are ignoring the influence that Christianity played. From education to law to values and principles Christianity touched every aspect of colonial life.

I am not ignoring the influence that Christianity contributed to the founding of America. You are seriously wrong if you think that. This explains why;

My line of thinking or argument on this debate is valid whether it is myself as the thinker being (1) non-Christian but not anti/Christian.

My argument works if I am a (2) Protestant Christian in the traditional sense taking Jesus as a personal savior, etc.

My argument works if I am a (3) Real Christian in the Jeffersonian sense that’s been discussed here on this thread. That is having strong affinity and respect for the moral teachings of Jesus, the mortal man who Is not divine, not the Son of God, or not supernatural in any way.

Many of the Founding Fathers were (3) Real Christians subdivided into Deists, Unitarians etc Jefferson and Adams for sure rejected the Holy Trinity of (2) Christendom.

As I said, I was married in a Unitarian Church. I attended the Unitarian Congregation where I grew up. The Unitarians and Quakers were the only churches that officially came out against the war in Vietnam that I could find.

My religious views were formed from as young as I can remember through high school at the peak of casualties on both sides of the Vietnam War.

I was baptized newly born Protestant Christian in a Lutheran Church.

I never attended Catechism which I was reminded by my mother my entire life.

Around the age of ten I was the second oldest in a family of six kids. We lived in a former old wooden office building in a rural area that was converted into a duplex. My paternal grandparents lived in the other half. My Grandmother was extremely religious as typical in a farming community during the 1950’s. She raised Irish and Gordon Setters, hunting and show dogs. I worked for my grandmother feeding and watering dogs and cleaning the pens and kennels. My grandmother never showed any kindness or gentleness toward me.

I do not know why but I would not go as a young child to church. My Grandmother expected that from my brothers and sisters and they all went. I refused and succeeded in convincing my mom and dad that I did not need to go to church and Sunday school with my grandmother.

I loved the woods and nature in the thousands of acres of Ohio State Game Preserve Land that surrounded my home. I loved wild animals and the dogs I took care of. I explored every inch of it. I had a cousin, Butch. A year younger than me. Butchie visited often and every Sunday dressed in a jacket and tie and went to a church with Grandma. He was her pride and joy.

Trouble was Butchie provided me with my first concept of what an asshole was.

In the woods my friends and I spent much time building forts and tree houses. A Tom Sawyer dream. My cousin led a gang that hunted down our forts and knocked them down. One day they showed up while we were there. They brought buckets of rocks from the roadway a mile away. There were no rocks in the woods. They threw rocks at us so we picked them up and threw them back. I watched one stone I threw fly in a perfect arch toward the spot when Butchie popped up and it hit him square on the forehead. Bleeding and screaming he ran back to grandma. I thought I killed him, but from that point on any chance that I would not burn in Godless Hell was over.

Around that time I rescued a rejected puppy born in the winter and the only puppy in a rare litter of one. He was all black. A mix somehow. I fed him with bottle dropper into a beautiful strong little puppy that I assumed would be mine. WRONG. Butchie said he wanted the puppy and I guess the puppy was not going to be raised in an unchristian home.

One day, I went to my cousins house and found Butch and his buddies throwing my dog off a twenty foot high bridge. I got my dog took him home and kept him as my dog.

My parents got divorced years later, moved to the city. My Grandmother died rather young, never asked why, and then sometime after that Butchie was killed around the age of 13 14 thrown from the back of pickup truck that failed to make a curve at high speed.

My religious views resurfaced a few years later when the Vietnam War was on TV and I ended up reading about that foreign land and people and it led to an interest in religion.

I studied on my own and read all I could find. I searched for answers to what religion meant to others and myself. My interests led me at one point to religion and war. That led to reading about Buddhism, Gandhi and Tolstoy, MLK and what Jesus said in the Bible.

I worked as dishwasher at 14, then my mom was getting married to a man I could not tolerate. I moved out at fifteen and have worked and paid my way through high school and signed my own grade cards forging my fathers name. I worked after school all through high school

At 17 a 1964 Pontiac LeMans hit my motorcycle head on. It’s fault. I survived all that and at twenty I was married and my first of three daughters were born.

My reading about religion and war was on and off but over time I started a notebook cutting and pasting Quotes from the people I read about. Jesus’ sermon on the mount was in that booklet. A photo of a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War,

Then after cutting and pasting from the Bible myself I came across the Jefferson Bible

My natural religion was settled, My appreciation for the works of Jesus was fine. I did not have to believe in anything else about him that my Christian Grandmother wanted.

I’m not anti-Christian at all organize as myself. I’m just opposed to ton coercion from anyone or organization telling me what to think about God.

But to come here to make the case that America was not founded as a Christian Nation, I am regarded as a Jesus hating atheist commie troll.

No one has wanted to hear my case as of yet, I hope for an audience. But if not I am fine with putting it on the record knowing just how strong my life’s Philosophy and Intuition truly are.

I apologize if you believe I was calling you a communist.

The message I am trying to convey is that freedom and liberty cannot exist without virtue and morality. And that virtue and morality cannot exist in the absence of religion which is exactly what George Washington said in his farewell address. He also said that no man who attacks religion can be considered a patriot.

I bring up the beliefs of communists and socialists and the history of their nations to serve as a contrast and proof that George Washington was correct in his assessment.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Well, I've come to the end of my long winded rant and will answer some of those questions I ignored while posting walls of text to prove a point. Thanks to those who filled in the blank spaces I was leaving.

The secularists, humanists, atheists, etc. all make this point that the word Christian is not in the Constitution; ergo, we cannot be a Christian nation. They are equally adamant that we are a secular nation, but they cannot find that word in any document associated with our founding. Several times I've mentioned the Sunday exception rule, the fact that in signing the Constitution, the signers did so "in the year of our Lord," etc. IIRC, we found four specific times a rational person could deduce that a Christian people signed that document and no non-Christians signing it. At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, ALL the signers were Christian:

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Masons played a minor role in the founding of America:

"Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, the number eight is usually accepted as the absolute minimum of Masons who signed the document. Though some evidence exists to show another 24 were Masons, it is not regularly accepted that they were Masons. Clearly, 13 of the 39 who signed the Constitution were members of Masonic lodges. Of the others, absolute proof has not been found."

Masonic Topics: USA

It wasn't until 1776 that the Illuminati successfully infiltrated the Masons (and I am not fully informed as to the agenda of Masons outside of that.) But, again, what matters is what was the final product?

The Constitution created a form of government, not a religion. We had a constitutional Republic AND we have the Tenth Amendment. The federal government was limited to what was in that document and the rest of governing was left up to the people and to the states, respectively. Up to at least 1897 when the United States Supreme Court ruled in the Holy Trinity case, all the states had some connection to Christianity. In virtually every era of time, there has been someone on the United States Supreme Court that has made a connection between our nation and its Christian heritage.

What my critics have been trying to sell is the notion that over two thirds of the people who helped found this nation(played an influential role in setting up the systems of governance), were idiots and dolts that signed documents that were antithetical to everything they believed in and would lead to the destruction of this nation and the outright criminalization of Christianity. The Masons were smarter than everyone else and secretly created a nation right under our nose that the rest of the founders couldn't see. That is the way it's been presented to me. I simply don't believe it.

Finally, it was on the news just yesterday that people who got mail order degrees from churches could NOT perform wedding ceremonies in Georgia. ANYBODY that thinks there is a separation of church and state is an absolute idiot. The almighty state registers churches, determines what constitutes a church, taxes those churches that do not espouse secular / humanist doctrines, and penalizes anyone that challenges the status. Benjamin Franklin once said that man will "ultimately be ruled by God or ruled by tyrants" and I repeat, that every nation has its own conception of right and wrong; good and bad. No nation can be all things to all people. Somebody's value system is going to prevail.

 

[Gdjjr]

You can’t separate the Christian heritage and culture anymore than you can separate any other country’s heritage and culture from theirs.

I'm not separating- I'm pointing out that nowhere is there a religious sanction of any kind- freedom OF religion.
I also stated, had you bothered to keep up, "of course they were influenced by"- there is still no sanction of a religious sect.

 

[Gdjjr]

By any objective measure America has been a force for good.

Yeah- especially of you consider Double Standards as "force for good"

 

[Gdjjr]

What my critics have been trying to sell is the notion that over two thirds of the people who helped found this nation(played an influential role in setting up the systems of governance), were idiots and dolts that signed documents that were antithetical to everything they believed in and would lead to the destruction of this nation and the outright criminalization of Christianity. The Masons were smarter than everyone else and secretly created a nation right under our nose that the rest of the founders couldn't see. That is the way it's been presented to me. I simply don't believe it.

I suppose I'm a critic, in this instance, so I'll rebutt for this critic- the only notion I'm "selling" is that words mean things. Period.
They all count or none count.
Personally, "I", admire the people who set up our gov't. I've not seen one comment to the contrary from others either.
You're original OP was/is we were founded as a christian nation. As a lawyer I would think parsing words is second nature to you. We can start all over from the beginning if you desire.Coming together to form a more perfect union is not founding a nation. Period. Especially in light of the fact the ones who came together were from what we're led to believe were sovereign states. Sovereign, counselor, is control of a limited sphere. As in Individual States- thus these United States- not the United State.
There was no official religious sect designated- freedom OF religion are the words- and as to the use of the word God in language there is no "official" definition or designation of that word either- empty suits and idiots in black robes be damned on their opinion- the law has NO business determining who worships what where or how- Indians had several different words for a Higher Power- but, they were deemed savages by christians so they don't count- I suspect Allah was in use in the ME as well- and the Jews probably had an official designation as well-
You can be as long winded as you have the energy for but two things will not change- 1), we were not founded as a Christian nation and 2), words mean things. They all count or none count, counselor.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

What my critics have been trying to sell is the notion that over two thirds of the people who helped found this nation(played an influential role in setting up the systems of governance), were idiots and dolts that signed documents that were antithetical to everything they believed in and would lead to the destruction of this nation and the outright criminalization of Christianity. The Masons were smarter than everyone else and secretly created a nation right under our nose that the rest of the founders couldn't see. That is the way it's been presented to me. I simply don't believe it.

I suppose I'm a critic, in this instance, so I'll rebutt for this critic- the only notion I'm "selling" is that words mean things. Period.
They all count or none count.
Personally, "I", admire the people who set up our gov't. I've not seen one comment to the contrary from others either.
You're original OP was/is we were founded as a christian nation. As a lawyer I would think parsing words is second nature to you. We can start all over from the beginning if you desire.Coming together to form a more perfect union is not founding a nation. Period. Especially in light of the fact the ones who came together were from what we're led to believe were sovereign states. Sovereign, counselor, is control of a limited sphere. As in Individual States- thus these United States- not the United State.
There was no official religious sect designated- freedom OF religion are the words- and as to the use of the word God in language there is no "official" definition or designation of that word either- empty suits and idiots in black robes be damned on their opinion- the law has NO business determining who worships what where or how- Indians had several different words for a Higher Power- but, they were deemed savages by christians so they don't count- I suspect Allah was in use in the ME as well- and the Jews probably had an official designation as well-
You can be as long winded as you have the energy for but two things will not change- 1), we were not founded as a Christian nation and 2), words mean things. They all count or none count, counselor.

Words do mean things. So dumbing it down for you:

"What my critics have been trying to sell is the notion that over two thirds of the people who helped found this nation(played an influential role in setting up the systems of governance)"

Every nation on this globe either has a political dictatorship or a form of government that revolves around a common ideology. In this instance, Christian values.

We do not have an established religion. At the same time, when people come into the United States, it is expected that they assimilate to our culture. And our culture just happens to built around Christian values. That is not an established religion.

Without an understanding of this, cannibals could (in theory) simply vote to allow cannabalism. More likely, we could see Muslims legalize Female Genitalia Mutilation and or get laws passed that would allow for whacking off a person's fingers or hand for stealing.

Like it or not, laws and B.S. aside, we have a value system. Like it or not there are things we, as a nation, find acceptable and unacceptable. Whether you believe it or not, those values are in place because Christians put certain things into effect. Just as you would not (at least I hope you wouldn't) allow someone to go cutting on your daughter's hymen, I would hope that you have enough common sense not to make it a possibility that a government could make that practice legal against your grand-daughters (if you happen to acquire a few in your old age.)

One fact that is undeniable: Thousands upon thousands of court cases, court opinions, founding fathers statements, laws, statutes, regulations, practices, and customs are connected to Christianity. We do not need a law to make us a theocracy in order to understand where we came from and what our destiny is... unless we buy into that snake oil that America can be everything to everybody. Freedom OF Religion NOT Freedom FROM Religion.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

FWIW, an owner or moderator on this board posts as if they were a regular poster. Then, when they don't like you, they ban you. In another thread, that POS started calling me names and I fed it back to him. So, if I don't get to finish this conversation, you know what happened.

 

[Gdjjr]

FWIW, an owner or moderator on this board posts as if they were a regular poster. Then, when they don't like you, they ban you. In another thread, that POS started calling me names and I fed it back to him. So, if I don't get to finish this conversation, you know what happened.

Yes they are very opinionated- and subjective in their opinions-

 

[Porter Rockwell]

FWIW, an owner or moderator on this board posts as if they were a regular poster. Then, when they don't like you, they ban you. In another thread, that POS started calling me names and I fed it back to him. So, if I don't get to finish this conversation, you know what happened.

Yes they are very opinionated- and subjective in their opinions-

I really object to that one guy, pretending to be a regular poster then trolling people for responses to justify banning them. Being on other boards and having gotten PMs, it's pretty common knowledge since the last thing people do is argue with him / her and the next thing you know you get banned. It's hokey, but that is the way it is.

 

[Gdjjr]

We do not have an established religion. At the same time, when people come into the United States, it is expected that they assimilate to our culture. And our culture just happens to built around Christian values. That is not an established religion.

You're making my point for me- built around is not founded as which was your OT/OP and you've argued from the get go-
And you've not addressed "nation" vs sovereign stateS- the "founders" established a constitution for the gov't to abide by and agreed to the 10th amendment (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people). Which recognizes plural not singular-
It's been not abided by since before the ink was dry- by, chrisitans and non christians alike- as far as I'm concerned Davy Crockett was the last man of honor to serve in the District of Criminals pig sty in the place set aside to be revered for- not to found a nation or as a site for worship- though many do, hence my use of the word acolyte describing the believers of left or right democrat or republican- they BOTH sides have devolved into domestic soft fascist and hard core fascist abroad- but, I digress-
Like I've said often and you can call me every derogatory name you feel applicable- religion is TOO complicated to act as a guide for ALL man kind- one simple rule is easy to abide by and IF as ingrained as "dogma" (political or religious) is a lot easier to practice- respect for the rights of others- no religion does that. N.O.N.E. They all threaten to destroy any who don't beleive/abide by the rules which change over time (evolve) vs the one *constant* I refer to as Truth- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- all truth is constant, all else is knowledge which evolves- if it was true yesterday it is true today and will be true tomorrow-
And, again, I don't give a rats ass what a black robed idiots opinion is- law is to be applied- not to judge a religion- that they deem themselves somehow as omnipotent decision makers, and are approved/revered as such, in a christian nation speaks to the sad state of affairs for christianity as well as non christians- and if nothing else proves another point- justice is blinded by, not blind-

 

[Porter Rockwell]

We have argued this stuff for over 675 posts now. Those who argue for a secular nation have a major obstacle (actually two IMO after last night.)

It was not until 1962, in the case of Engle v. Vitale that the United States Supreme Court legislated from the bench and literally pulled that "separation of church and state" stuff out of their butt. There was no statute to be interpreted or applied and there were zero precedents.

The high Court had already acknowledged that we were a Christian nation in language just as clearly as they had said we were not in that Treaty of Tripoli. The big difference is, the Holy Trinity ruling has never been over-ruled.

IMO, when I found out that the Church of Spiritual Humanism ordinations were not valid for their leaders to perform weddings, it became obvious. There is no separation of church and state AND the government is going out of its way to protect the humanists who have declared America to be a secular country. The United States Supreme Court says that humanism has the "effect of a religion." But, then they do not allow humanists to have a recognized church... Reason??? The humanists have manifestos:

Humanist Manifesto I - American Humanist Association

Everything in the humanist manifestos are generally policy within the federal government. However, they are not a religion and the government won't recognize them as such. Humanism is a religion and it is our unofficial state religion. But, by denying humanists the Right to be declared a religion, the government can institute a value system antithetical to the principles the Republic was founded on. Ironic how that all worked out.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

We do not have an established religion. At the same time, when people come into the United States, it is expected that they assimilate to our culture. And our culture just happens to built around Christian values. That is not an established religion.

You're making my point for me- built around is not founded as which was your OT/OP and you've argued from the get go-
And you've not addressed "nation" vs sovereign stateS- the "founders" established a constitution for the gov't to abide by and agreed to the 10th amendment (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people). Which recognizes plural not singular-
It's been not abided by since before the ink was dry- by, chrisitans and non christians alike- as far as I'm concerned Davy Crockett was the last man of honor to serve in the District of Criminals pig sty in the place set aside to be revered for- not to found a nation or as a site for worship- though many do, hence my use of the word acolyte describing the believers of left or right democrat or republican- they BOTH sides have devolved into domestic soft fascist and hard core fascist abroad- but, I digress-
Like I've said often and you can call me every derogatory name you feel applicable- religion is TOO complicated to act as a guide for ALL man kind- one simple rule is easy to abide by and IF as ingrained as "dogma" (political or religious) is a lot easier to practice- respect for the rights of others- no religion does that. N.O.N.E. They all threaten to destroy any who don't beleive/abide by the rules which change over time (evolve) vs the one *constant* I refer to as Truth- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- all truth is constant, all else is knowledge which evolves- if it was true yesterday it is true today and will be true tomorrow-
And, again, I don't give a rats ass what a black robed idiots opinion is- law is to be applied- not to judge a religion- that they deem themselves somehow as omnipotent decision makers, and are approved/revered as such, in a christian nation speaks to the sad state of affairs for christianity as well as non christians- and if nothing else proves another point- justice is blinded by, not blind-

Dude, for real, learn how to use the space key and break your posts into paragraphs.

Being a Christian nation is not meant to imply that we have a national religion regardless of how many times you try and misrepresent what I say. You're trying to make this an argument about a theocracy. That is wholly dishonest.

Principles and religion are not the same thing. Values and religion are not the same thing. But, when a nation embodies the values and principles of a religion, the people (as distinguished from the government) are what they decide they are.

We, not the government, are a Christian nation. The government is merely a vehicle we use to apply those principles and values we've accepted as a people. Their measuring tools are based on Christianity. No individual has to accept our beliefs; however, as in the case of the guy who mutilated his daughters (that I have referenced many times) he did not respect the prevailing value system that is based on a concept of right and wrong. Our "wrong" in the instant case is due to a a set of values and principles based on Christian values and principles.

If you're right, that guy should easily have the courts over-turn his conviction on the basis of separation of church and state. I don't think it's going to happen. AND, if not for Christians, we would never have had the concept of unalienable Rights. Volunteer to do an appeal brief. Test your theory. That will end the B.S. here once and for all.

Small edit: If our form of government were to change it was supposed to have been done by way of an amendment. Jefferson and Washington, regardless of what they were would have backed me up on that.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Back in a couple of days to answer NOTFOOLEDBYW's many postings.