Allen West is a disgrace.

[slukasiewski]

Please this slowly...then explain what an article 128 is. Jester, please focus on this for a second. What exactly is an article 128? Then get into article 134. You had the nerve to call me a poseur? Poseur, Allen West is a disgrace.

While serving in Taji, Iraq, West received information from an intelligence specialist about a reported plot to ambush him and his men.[11] The alleged plot reportedly involved Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, a civilian Iraqi police officer.[11] At first, West thought the reports were a joke...until a week later when several of his officers were ambushed when he was supposed to be traveling with them. At that point, Colonel West began taking the risk of a planned assassination attempt seriously. [11] West, who was not responsible for conducting interrogations in Iraq and had never conducted or witnessed one, had his men detain Hamoodi.[11] In the process of detaining Mr. Hamoodi, soldiers testified that Mr. Hamoodi appeared to go for his weapon and needed to be subdued.[11] Hamoodi was beaten by four of his soldiers from the 220th Field Artillery Battalion on the head and body.[12] West then fired his pistol near Hamoodi's head.[11] Hamoodi then provided West with names and information, what Hamoodi later described as "meaningless information induced by fear and pain."[11] At least one suspect was arrested as a result, but no plans for attacks or weapons were found.[11] West said "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi."[11]

West was charged with violating articles 128 (assault) and 134 (general article) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. During a hearing held as part of an Article 32 investigation in November 2003, West stated, "I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers."[citation needed] The charges were ultimately referred to an Article 15 proceeding rather than court-martial, at which West was fined $5,000.[11] LTC West accepted the judgment and retired with full benefits in the summer of 2004. Asked if he would have act differently if under similar circumstances again, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."[13] After Colonel West was relieved of his command, an interpreter said that without his presence the region he previously oversaw became more dangerous and chaotic.[11]




(I am talking to military people for a minute here) there are rules and the ucmj is there for a reason. True?You violate it, you can get kicked out. Righty Mr. West? Civilians dont seem to get this. There are are reasons why you do missions you are responsible for. When you cross the line, you are in violation of the UCMJ. Righty Jester? This disgraced idiot was never responsible for that interrogation. That is why he was busted and in my opinion, they should not have given him a choice and they should have put him behind bars for 10 years.

HE IS A DISGRACE. I know a lot of civilians will say so what, but the military has rules and this "officer" broke them. There are ways to complete mission while following the damn rules. I am going with the army and not some arm chair guy who says "so what"..he committed assult and I agree with the Army. He should have and did have to retire.

God bless America.

Jester, prove me wrong. This will be the hardest thing you have ever done but, If you dont like the link, prove me wrong with a different one that says he did't commit assult. You know, article 128 and dont forget article 134.


Allen West (politician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An Article 15 is a misdemeanor, dumbass.

Piss-poor attempt on your part to discredit one who served his nation honorably.

Why don't you enlist asshole and give a little patriotism a try.

 

[pinqy]

An Article 15 is a misdemeanor, dumbass.

No, it's not. Misdemeanor and felony are not terms used in military law...there are only offenses. Any offense under UCMJ can be resolved either through a court-martial or, if the commanding officer decides, non-judicial punishment. While more serious offenses will generally result in a court-martial, so can reporting 5 minutes late for duty (though that will almost never happen). Again, theoretically, a murder charge could result in an Article 15 punishment (though again, that won't happen). The fact that LTC West received only non-judicial punishment does not mean he could not have been court martialed or that it was considered a lesser offense. It only means that, for whatever reason, it was decided not to take it to court. LTC West could certainly have requested a court martial instead of the Article 15 if he thought he would win.

As for LTC West's actions: He is not and has never been trained as an interrogator, he had no authorization or authority to conduct an interrogation, and he used illegal methods, and he was aware of all this. He also would have had trained interrogators and counter-intelligence agents available to interrogate Hamoodi, so he cannot claim expediency.

 

[slukasiewski]

An Article 15 is a misdemeanor, dumbass.

No, it's not. Misdemeanor and felony are not terms used in military law...there are only offenses. Any offense under UCMJ can be resolved either through a court-martial or, if the commanding officer decides, non-judicial punishment. While more serious offenses will generally result in a court-martial, so can reporting 5 minutes late for duty (though that will almost never happen). Again, theoretically, a murder charge could result in an Article 15 punishment (though again, that won't happen). The fact that LTC West received only non-judicial punishment does not mean he could not have been court martialed or that it was considered a lesser offense. It only means that, for whatever reason, it was decided not to take it to court. LTC West could certainly have requested a court martial instead of the Article 15 if he thought he would win.

As for LTC West's actions: He is not and has never been trained as an interrogator, he had no authorization or authority to conduct an interrogation, and he used illegal methods, and he was aware of all this. He also would have had trained interrogators and counter-intelligence agents available to interrogate Hamoodi, so he cannot claim expediency.

Yes it is, moron. An Article 15 DOES NOT carry over to your civilian record, a police report - as a convicted court martial would. An Article 15 is NON JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT. What part of NON-JUDICIAL do you need dumbed down more, moron?

 

[pinqy]

Did you read what he did? He commited assult according the army and was forced to retire because of what he did.

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

 

[slukasiewski]

Did you read what he did? He commited assult according the army and was forced to retire because of what he did.

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

What the hell do you know about the military, other than bashing honorable servicemen like Lt. Colonel West. You're pathetically unpatriotic. Probably support terrorists too.,..

 

[High_Gravity]

This man did what was necessary to save American lives and people here are giving him shit for that? shame on you.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I don't understand how anyone who has served and some who retired from the military can think that an Article 15 is a career ender.

I was the recipient of one back in 73. and 10 years later made E7 in the secondary zone of consideration. That Article 15 didn't even slow me down.

I think it depends, in the Air Force nowadays an Article can be a career ender because unless you have an understanding commander who will give you a second chance, you will be ineligible for promotion and reenlistment, thus your career is over.

It is possible that a bar to reenlistment can be part of an article 15. But I don't believe an officer enlists.... They are Commissioned. And therefore would have to have their commission withdrawn. LTC West Retired with an Honorable Discharge. There was no disgrace to it. A little personal shame maybe. But you would have to ask him about that.

 

[pinqy]

Yes it is, moron. An Article 15 DOES NOT carry over to your civilian record, a police report - as a convicted court martial would.

Never said it did. But that has nothing to do with misdemeanor or felony.

An Article 15 is NON JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT. What part of NON-JUDICIAL do you need dumbed down more, moron?

NON-JUDICIAL does NOT mean MISDEMEANOR. Nor does it mean he could not have received a court martial for the offense.

What part are you not understanding?

Oh, and personal insults don't actually constitute an argument, they only demonstrate a desire to annoy someone. Just saying.

And for the record, since I received an Article 15 many many years ago, I'm well aware of the difference and I'm quite sure I know far more about these matters than you do.

 

[Dot Com]

I haven't seen anything where West has whined about being treated unfairly or said that the rules were wrong.

He appears to have accepted the consequences of his actions like an adult.

Maybe because he was given an Article 15 rather than a court martial, which he was eligible for BTW. STOP DRINKING THE KOOL AID!!!

 

[SFC Ollie]

Did you read what he did? He commited assult according the army and was forced to retire because of what he did.

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

Maybe if you read a little more you would find out that attacks against his men stopped after this incident and didn't start again until after he was relieved. Hmmm, didn't your talking points cover that little bit of information?

 

[pinqy]

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

What the hell do you know about the military, other than bashing honorable servicemen like Lt. Colonel West. You're pathetically unpatriotic. Probably support terrorists too.,..

23 years in the Army as a Military Intelligence professional, active duty and reserves, with service in Desert Storm and Afghanistan, stateside callups at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

My dick is bigger than yours if you want to compare service records.

 

[digger]

An Article 15 is a misdemeanor, dumbass.

No, it's not. Misdemeanor and felony are not terms used in military law...there are only offenses. Any offense under UCMJ can be resolved either through a court-martial or, if the commanding officer decides, non-judicial punishment. While more serious offenses will generally result in a court-martial, so can reporting 5 minutes late for duty (though that will almost never happen). Again, theoretically, a murder charge could result in an Article 15 punishment (though again, that won't happen). The fact that LTC West received only non-judicial punishment does not mean he could not have been court martialed or that it was considered a lesser offense. It only means that, for whatever reason, it was decided not to take it to court. LTC West could certainly have requested a court martial instead of the Article 15 if he thought he would win.

As for LTC West's actions: He is not and has never been trained as an interrogator, he had no authorization or authority to conduct an interrogation, and he used illegal methods, and he was aware of all this. He also would have had trained interrogators and counter-intelligence agents available to interrogate Hamoodi, so he cannot claim expediency.

I really don't get it when people say it was a minor crime. He tortured someone! Torture!

If that is not a major crime in the US military, than the entire US military is criminal. That's what people are saying when they say that West was only slapped on the wrist.

 

[slukasiewski]

An Article 15 is a misdemeanor, dumbass.

No, it's not. Misdemeanor and felony are not terms used in military law...there are only offenses. Any offense under UCMJ can be resolved either through a court-martial or, if the commanding officer decides, non-judicial punishment. While more serious offenses will generally result in a court-martial, so can reporting 5 minutes late for duty (though that will almost never happen). Again, theoretically, a murder charge could result in an Article 15 punishment (though again, that won't happen). The fact that LTC West received only non-judicial punishment does not mean he could not have been court martialed or that it was considered a lesser offense. It only means that, for whatever reason, it was decided not to take it to court. LTC West could certainly have requested a court martial instead of the Article 15 if he thought he would win.

As for LTC West's actions: He is not and has never been trained as an interrogator, he had no authorization or authority to conduct an interrogation, and he used illegal methods, and he was aware of all this. He also would have had trained interrogators and counter-intelligence agents available to interrogate Hamoodi, so he cannot claim expediency.

I really don't get it when people say it was a minor crime. He tortured someone! Torture!

If that is not a major crime in the US military, than the entire US military is criminal. That's what people are saying when they say that West was only slapped on the wrist.

he wasn't tried and convicted of torture! Tortue! - you stupid idiot. He received NON-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT - get it? - for assault.

Didn't tarnish his civilian record one bit.

Unlike that pervert Bill Clinton who committed actual crimes.

Now freaking get over it.

 

[pinqy]

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

Maybe if you read a little more you would find out that attacks against his men stopped after this incident and didn't start again until after he was relieved. Hmmm, didn't your talking points cover that little bit of information?

I don't have talking points. I do know a little Latin though...post hoc, ergo propter hoc. And let's use some logic (other than fallacies): Hamoodi was not accused of doing any attacks himself, so his capture is meaningless. He provided names and information, which resulted in no weapons, or plans for attack and only one confirmed arrest. LTC West himself admitted he was likely wrong about Hamoodi. So what clear connection are you claiming other than timing? Or it could have been that the crackdown after Hamoodi's detention caused the attackers to lay low under scrutiny or any number of things.

It cannot be shown that LTC West's actions had any positive effect and it could well have had negative effect.

 

[slukasiewski]

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

What the hell do you know about the military, other than bashing honorable servicemen like Lt. Colonel West. You're pathetically unpatriotic. Probably support terrorists too.,..

23 years in the Army as a Military Intelligence professional, active duty and reserves, with service in Desert Storm and Afghanistan, stateside callups at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

My dick is bigger than yours if you want to compare service records.

Well, in my 23 years in the Navy - we always said "The Army was reserved for dummies."

How true you make that point.

For a supposed 23 year veteran to NOT know the difference between an Article 15 and a Court Martial is truly astonishing.

You really are a dummy.

Crawl back into your cubicle now.

 

[Dot Com]

What the hell do you know about the military, other than bashing honorable servicemen like Lt. Colonel West. You're pathetically unpatriotic. Probably support terrorists too.,..

23 years in the Army as a Military Intelligence professional, active duty and reserves, with service in Desert Storm and Afghanistan, stateside callups at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

My dick is bigger than yours if you want to compare service records.

Well, in my 23 years in the Navy - we always said "The Army was reserved for dummies."

How true you make that point.

For a supposed 23 year veteran to NOT know the difference between an Article 15 and a Court Martial is truly astonishing.

You really are a dummy.

Crawl back into your cubicle now.

I don't care if you were at Harvard for 23 years, you're still one of the biggest morons on the board

 

[pinqy]

What the hell do you know about the military, other than bashing honorable servicemen like Lt. Colonel West. You're pathetically unpatriotic. Probably support terrorists too.,..

23 years in the Army as a Military Intelligence professional, active duty and reserves, with service in Desert Storm and Afghanistan, stateside callups at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

My dick is bigger than yours if you want to compare service records.

Well, in my 23 years in the Navy - we always said "The Army was reserved for dummies."

How true you make that point.

For a supposed 23 year veteran to NOT know the difference between an Article 15 and a Court Martial is truly astonishing.

You really are a dummy.

Crawl back into your cubicle now.

What have I written that leads you to think I don't know the difference between an Article 15 and a court martial? Exact quote please. I'm honestly puzzled by this.

What's sad is that a 23 year veteran thinks an Article 15 is a misdemeanor when we don't have misdemeanors in the UCMJ. Show me one reg or law that states that. Here's some help UCMJ

 

[RachelMadcow]

I notice that Democrat Stoner parasite colllege cross dressers get real uppitty when the grown ups tell them their allowance is lowered or even cut off.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't understand how anyone who has served and some who retired from the military can think that an Article 15 is a career ender.

I was the recipient of one back in 73. and 10 years later made E7 in the secondary zone of consideration. That Article 15 didn't even slow me down.

I think it depends, in the Air Force nowadays an Article can be a career ender because unless you have an understanding commander who will give you a second chance, you will be ineligible for promotion and reenlistment, thus your career is over.

It is possible that a bar to reenlistment can be part of an article 15. But I don't believe an officer enlists.... They are Commissioned. And therefore would have to have their commission withdrawn. LTC West Retired with an Honorable Discharge. There was no disgrace to it. A little personal shame maybe. But you would have to ask him about that.

Oh your right I was talking about as far as enlisted folks, I am not sure how a Article 15 effects an officer but I have seen some resign their commissions after getting one because it makes it alot harder to put on rank once you have a 15.

 

[digger]

He protected his men.

Apparently not, as no real connection was ever found. And since he had the means and ability to do things properly through trained 35M or 35L soldiers, he should have. Dragging in a police officer and doing an illegal interrogation is not the way to protect your men.

Maybe if you read a little more you would find out that attacks against his men stopped after this incident and didn't start again until after he was relieved. Hmmm, didn't your talking points cover that little bit of information?

There is no justification for torture. Not in war. Not anywhere. It's wrong. But even if it weren't wrong, it's useless. You get bad information as often as you'll get good. Because they have no incentive to tell you the truth. They just want to tell you anything that will make you stop torturing them.

You read until you find the information you like, then you stop. Attacks slowed down and then they picked up again later. Is there anything to indicate that this had anything to do with torturing someone? Quite the opposite.

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ - INTERROGATIONS - THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ - INTERROGATIONS - How Colonel Risked His Career By Menacing Detainee and Lost - NYTimes.com

"At least one man named by Mr. Hamoodi was taken into custody, according to testimony, and his home was searched. No plans for attacks on Americans or weapons were found. Colonel West testified that he did not know whether 'any corroboration' of a plot was ever found, adding: 'At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi.'"

Now, as to his motivations. Protecting his men. I seriously doubt that. I think he was terrified of dying and trying to save his own skin. You can't be sure what's going on inside someone's head. But look at the narrative. Someone tells him that there's going to be an assassination attempt on him. He doesn't take it seriously. A week later, a humvee that he was scheduled to be in but wasn't gets attacked. Next thing you know he's hauling people in and torturing them, when he's never been trained to interrogate. Hasn't even seen an interrogation before. Looks to me like he was desperately trying to protect himself.