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Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

Blues Man

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You care so much you are willing to disregard objectivity. That's a lot of caring.
There is no objective proof that any gods exist which is why religions are based on faith not fact

And I never said I wouldn't acknowledge the proof they exist I just said I won't worship them.

And FYI I never said that gods do not exist as there is not enough evidence to claim they do or don't.
 

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There is no objective proof that any gods exist which is why religions are based on faith not fact

And I never said I wouldn't acknowledge the proof they exist I just said I won't worship them.

And FYI I never said that gods do not exist as there is not enough evidence to claim they do or don't.
Existence itself is your objective proof.
 

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Blues Man

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Existence itself is your objective proof.
Not really.

You cannot prove the god in your bible exists to any reasonable scientific standard.

So until I get that proof I'll remain agnostic. And even if that proof ever comes I still won't grovel.
 

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Not really.

You cannot prove the god in your bible exists to any reasonable scientific standard.

So until I get that proof I'll remain agnostic. And even if that proof ever comes I still won't grovel.
You seem to be hung up on the God of the Bible. You should let that go. It's getting in the way of of your seeing reality.

It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create and imbued His creation with His attributes.
 

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Blues Man

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You seem to be hung up on the God of the Bible. You should let that go. It's getting in the way of of your seeing reality.

It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create and imbued His creation with His attributes.
You're the one quoting the bible constantly so maybe take your own advice.
 

Blues Man

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The proof is all around you. You are without excuse.
No it isn't.

There is no proof in the tree that is outside my office window that some god created that tree.

So until a god appears to me and millions of others at the same time and then I get checked out to make sure it's not a hallucination caused by a brain tumor I will still say there isn't proof that gods exist.

And even if they did I still would not worship them.
 

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You're the one quoting the bible constantly so maybe take your own advice.
There are two parts to the question; does God exist and what is God's nature. You use the second part to argue against the first part which is illogical.

Again... It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create and imbued His creation with His attributes.
 

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No it isn't.

There is no proof in the tree that is outside my office window that some god created that tree.

So until a god appears to me and millions of others at the same time and then I get checked out to make sure it's not a hallucination caused by a brain tumor I will still say there isn't proof that gods exist.

And even if they did I still would not worship them.
God created existence. He's not turning knobs. That's a polytheistic belief. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

You are without excuse.

You have no idea what worship means. So it's your loss, not God's. He did his part.
 

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There are two parts to the question; does God exist and what is God's nature. You use the second part to argue against the first part which is illogical.

Again... It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create and imbued His creation with His attributes.
No

I don't really care if gods exist or not. It would make absolutely no difference to me.

There is no actual proof that gods exist other than speculation and a need to make up answers to questions we in all likelihood will never be able to answer.
 

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God created existence. He's not turning knobs. That's a polytheistic belief. It's not a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

You are without excuse.

You have no idea what worship means. So it's your loss, not God's. He did his part.

Your opinion and you know how much I value that
 

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No

I don't really care if gods exist or not. It would make absolutely no difference to me.

There is no actual proof that gods exist other than speculation and a need to make up answers to questions we in all likelihood will never be able to answer.
Your loss. Again... existence is the proof you are looking for. You are without excuse.
 

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Blues Man

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Your loss. Again... existence is the proof you are looking for. You are without excuse.
Nope.

The existence of a thing is only proof of the existence of that thing.

You say there is a god so show him to me.

Proof does not require faith.
 

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Nope.

The existence of a thing is only proof of the existence of that thing.

You say there is a god so show him to me.

Proof does not require faith.
Existence isn't a thing. Neither is God.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All I have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.
 

Blues Man

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Existence isn't a thing. Neither is God.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All I have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.
prove that there is a "spirit world"

You can't do that anymore than you can produce a god.

And if it took 14 billion years for humans to exist and to become intelligent I guess the wiring of the universe isn't very efficient is it?

Makes it seem more like chance
 

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Once again your opinion.

I have no use for gods
Path not taken so you will likely never know.

For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever.
 

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