Aborted fetus = Lucky bastard?

[Taomon]

Not wanting to have been alive is pretty close to suicidal thinking. It's not good and isn't a mental frame work from which one should give advice on abortions as a whole. As an aside, I'm glad that you haven't decided to off yourself and are being a responsable father.

On the other hand, the problem I've always had with the abortion argument about "a womans right to choose" is that it's not extended to men who don't want to pay child support. Now this is coming from someone who's absent father never payed child support so I can only imagine how it might have helped me an me mum (I call it don't miss what you've never had syndrome). But I balk at the idea that the livelyhood of three people is suddenly given into the hands of one person.

The way I see it, God has left us free will, society and organized religion seek to undermine that.

If you are truly against abortion, then education and strong social programs are the only cure.

 

[Taomon]

Not wanting to have been alive is pretty close to suicidal thinking. It's not good and isn't a mental frame work from which one should give advice on abortions as a whole. As an aside, I'm glad that you haven't decided to off yourself and are being a responsable father.

On the other hand, the problem I've always had with the abortion argument about "a womans right to choose" is that it's not extended to men who don't want to pay child support. Now this is coming from someone who's absent father never payed child support so I can only imagine how it might have helped me an me mum (I call it don't miss what you've never had syndrome). But I balk at the idea that the livelyhood of three people is suddenly given into the hands of one person.

Besides, is life truly so wonderful that you enjoy every waking moment?

 

[Bern80]

Can you provide even the slightest teeny tiny iota of evidence to suggest that there is such a thing as a soul? This is an open challenge to lay before me ANYTHING that supports the possibility of a soul.. If so, then please show me to be wrong.

Evidence of it would defeat the purpose of this called FAITH.

 

[frazzledgear]

I grew up in an abusive household. A day did not go by that I would not have welcomed death over that.

To this day, I wish I had never been born. Had I been given a choice, I would have been aborted or still born. But I was not given that choice.

You make assumptions that have ramifications on the lives of people who you will never meet nor will you most likely ever help...That is the aborted children you speak of. ou can put as much fire & brimstone in your rhetoric, but you cannot prove that death is not better than a life of neglect or abuse.

And you make assumptions that are not born out by the statistics. One is that aborted children would have been abused if allowed to live which is not supported by any data. And the notion that legalized abortion reduces child abuse at all. According to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System, child abuse rates started significantly rising within 7 years after legalizing abortion before levelling off again at that new higher rate. It has never returned to that lower rate or anywhere close to it. Even allowing for more stringent reporting requirements, it is believed that accounts for about 1/4 of that rise in child abuse rates, because that rate had already started rising before more stringent reporting requirements were in place. And it is believed that the reported rates of child abuse represent about 1/3 of the true rate of child abuse.

So you should have checked that out before making that false correlation that somehow abortion would equal fewer abused children when it certainly does not. It appears there are more abused children instead.

Today the age children are at the greatest risk for PHYSICAL abuse is from birth to age 3. Want to take a guess on why higher abortion rates go hand in hand with higher child abuse and the younger the child, the more at risk he is -and not just in this country? Child abuse rose in every country after that country legalized abortion. If society adopts a policy that says if a human life is young and immature, it doesn't count as a "real" life and is actually little more than biological trash -then it should be no surprise that children at the greatest risk of abuse are also the youngest and most immature. We have an official policy that says the younger the human life, the less value that life is believed to have.

That is a HUGE change for our society. We changed from a society that said all human life is inherently valuable -to one that discriminates against some humans on the basis of their age and level of maturity.

It is pretty hard to find a rational basis for saying killing a child in order to PREVENT that child from drawing his first breath is legal (and according to you a "humane" act.) -but killing that child one minute after his first breath is MURDER? Legal to kill the child on Monday, but not on Tuesday because then he is a "real" human and legally YOUR equal? One day legal to kill that child and the VERY next day it is murder? Get real. If there isn't much difference in whether a baby is a "real" human today compared to tomorrow, then what real difference is there is they wait another 2 weeks to kill it? After all, society already said we can kill our youngest children -its just all in the timing, right? So it shouldn't surprise anyone that those most at risk for physical abuse are the youngest -with the most lethal and gruesome form of abuse saved for our very youngest and most immature.

My youngest child was born 16 weeks prematurely, when I was 24 weeks pregnant. The normal length of pregnancy is 40 weeks. He weighed 2 lbs. and was 11" long. He's in college now. You will never convince me that his level of immaturity meant he didn't have a "real" life or wasn't a "real" human being. Or convince any other parent of an extremely premature child. That child was sick because he was so immature and spent three months in the hospital. But he wasn't less human because he was so immature. Amazing how the parents of extremely premature children get a real wake-up call regarding abortion and what babies killed at that age actually look like. Babies -just littler babies.

So the law that allows unborn babies who are 16 weeks more mature than my son was at birth to be legally killed in the most inhumane fashion - makes me want to puke. Its just murder of the most vulnerable among us. And history has repeatedly shown that when a society goes bad -it always turns on the weakest and most vulnerable among them first. And simply broadens the list from there of who may be legally targeted for killing. Oddly enough, proponents of legalized killing of our weakest and most vulnerable, insist that changing society from one that protects its weakest and most vulnerable to one that just kills them off instead -represents humanity at it finest.

 

[The_Hammer]

Besides, is life truly so wonderful that you enjoy every waking moment?

There is a humongous difference between "Wow I have had a crappy life let me keep on living and make the best of it" and "Life wasn't worthwhile from the get go and I'd wished I'd never had it to start with. The only reason I'm keeping myself around is because I have responsibilities to other people". Of course every day is not peachy keen, sunshine and candy. But you don't give up, that's a pussy way of thinking. In all honesty the lowest you can go in life, is death. You could think of the absolute shittiest circumstance imaginable, except dying, and you can come back from it and live decently.

The idea that you've just got "despair" is, I find, rather foolish. You've got to be dealing with major depression to be thinking all the time that your life has never been worth living. It makes one wonder how you ever did manage to snag a woman and pop out kids. Isn't your life worthwhile t o enjoy them? Doesn't your family make you say "Hell my start was shitty, but fuck it's pretty sweet now." Don't you ever think how much better off you are from like, most of the planet? Hell the fact that you are capable of using a forum to debate abortion, fuck, THAT YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO WRITE is worth so much. There are literally billions of people who haven't ever had that opportunity in the past and who don't have it now and are probably worse off than you are. You can't take that and say "Gee, life really isn't that bad." Thinking that your singular life is so shitty that it wasn't worth living because of abuse means you have a serious problem. Millions of people have been abused, kept on living, and tried to make the best of it. Get some help sir.

The way I see it, God has left us free will, society and organized religion seek to undermine that.

If you are truly against abortion, then education and strong social programs are the only cure.

By your definition of God we can't have been "given" a free will. To "give" something to someone is a conscious choice that a force or inanimate metaphysical will or presence, laking person, is unable to do. An impersonal force can not give by virtue of the fact that it isn't able to make the choice to give. Trees don't "give" us fruit. We take it. Free will it part of us from the get go, encoded in our genes. And even then some people don't choose to use it. They act like lemmings and jump off the cliff. You have to choose to take and use your free will. Organized religion and society recognize free will and usually put restrictions on it for the greater good of the species. For society it's call the social contract. If everyone simply operated off of their own free will, we'd be fucked hardcore, anally, and without lube. There need to be necessary restrictions on the use of personal free will to protect mankind from itself.

Education, and strong social programs are not the only cure to stop abortions. To actually stop abortions, you need to make them illegal. Most abortions do not occur because "O I can't feed my baby". I did a whole paper on this. Almost 1/3 of abortions performed each year are doubles, someone who's already had an abortion. Most people who have abortions do so because they don't want the "burden" (or accepting responsibility for participating in the social act of copulation and the result of coitus) of a child. They just don't want to do it. The fact that they cause someone else to miss out on life (by killing them) AND screw around with the rights (note these are socially accepted rights) of others because women in taking the sole role in abortion remove the right of men who are not married to choose to be a participating father in ANY pregnancy. Would I ever support legislation banning abortion. I wish it could happen but hell no. People are to weak willed and do not want to accept responsibility for their actions to do that. They want to do what they want to do and will do it come hell or high water.

 

[The_Hammer]

That is a HUGE change for our society. We changed from a society that said all human life is inherently valuable -to one that discriminates against some humans on the basis of their age and level of maturity.

The error you are making here is assuming that a fetus is A) Considered a human being B) Is afforded any intrinsic value because it does not function as a human being.

 

[Care4all]

There is a humongous difference between "Wow I have had a crappy life let me keep on living and make the best of it" and "Life wasn't worthwhile from the get go and I'd wished I'd never had it to start with. The only reason I'm keeping myself around is because I have responsibilities to other people". Of course every day is not peachy keen, sunshine and candy. But you don't give up, that's a pussy way of thinking. In all honesty the lowest you can go in life, is death. You could think of the absolute shittiest circumstance imaginable, except dying, and you can come back from it and live decently.

The idea that you've just got "despair" is, I find, rather foolish. You've got to be dealing with major depression to be thinking all the time that your life has never been worth living. It makes one wonder how you ever did manage to snag a woman and pop out kids. Isn't your life worthwhile t o enjoy them? Doesn't your family make you say "Hell my start was shitty, but fuck it's pretty sweet now." Don't you ever think how much better off you are from like, most of the planet? Hell the fact that you are capable of using a forum to debate abortion, fuck, THAT YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO WRITE is worth so much. There are literally billions of people who haven't ever had that opportunity in the past and who don't have it now and are probably worse off than you are. You can't take that and say "Gee, life really isn't that bad." Thinking that your singular life is so shitty that it wasn't worth living because of abuse means you have a serious problem. Millions of people have been abused, kept on living, and tried to make the best of it. Get some help sir.



By your definition of God we can't have been "given" a free will. To "give" something to someone is a conscious choice that a force or inanimate metaphysical will or presence, laking person, is unable to do. An impersonal force can not give by virtue of the fact that it isn't able to make the choice to give. Trees don't "give" us fruit. We take it. Free will it part of us from the get go, encoded in our genes. And even then some people don't choose to use it. They act like lemmings and jump off the cliff. You have to choose to take and use your free will. Organized religion and society recognize free will and usually put restrictions on it for the greater good of the species. For society it's call the social contract. If everyone simply operated off of their own free will, we'd be fucked hardcore, anally, and without lube. There need to be necessary restrictions on the use of personal free will to protect mankind from itself.

Education, and strong social programs are not the only cure to stop abortions. To actually stop abortions, you need to make them illegal. Most abortions do not occur because "O I can't feed my baby". I did a whole paper on this. Almost 1/3 of abortions performed each year are doubles, someone who's already had an abortion. Most people who have abortions do so because they don't want the "burden" (or accepting responsibility for participating in the social act of copulation and the result of coitus) of a child. They just don't want to do it. The fact that they cause someone else to miss out on life (by killing them) AND screw around with the rights (note these are socially accepted rights) of others because women in taking the sole role in abortion remove the right of men who are not married to choose to be a participating father in ANY pregnancy. Would I ever support legislation banning abortion. I wish it could happen but hell no. People are to weak willed and do not want to accept responsibility for their actions to do that. They want to do what they want to do and will do it come hell or high water.

Maybe you could explain how making abortion illegal, will stop any of these young women from getting an abortion black market, or going somewhere abortion is legal?

Even if Roe v Wade is reversed by the SC, it would revert back to the States, what was in their laws before Roe v wade, unless they have modified them....and I believe I read that more than half of the States had abortion as a legal procedure in one way or another.

So even IF Roe v wade is reversed and half the states do not have abortion as legal, the other half will and NOT ONE abortion that was gonna happen, will be prevented from happening if the self determination of the mother to be is to have an abortion.

It is the hearts and minds that need to be changed regarding abortion that will make a difference imho....not any laws...

And when abortion was illegal, it was only illegal for the doctor to perform one...there was no law punishing the mother to be that had one....and there never will be one against the mother to be, imho....no one in Congress would have the guts to do such.... this 'sets up' the back alley abortion and unsafe conditions for the mother to be by our government....two wrongs don't make a "right"....imo.

This issue is much more complicated than what is usually discussed....

Care

 

[Ravi]

Not wanting to have been alive is pretty close to suicidal thinking. It's not good and isn't a mental frame work from which one should give advice on abortions as a whole. As an aside, I'm glad that you haven't decided to off yourself and are being a responsable father.

On the other hand, the problem I've always had with the abortion argument about "a womans right to choose" is that it's not extended to men who don't want to pay child support. Now this is coming from someone who's absent father never payed child support so I can only imagine how it might have helped me an me mum (I call it don't miss what you've never had syndrome). But I balk at the idea that the livelyhood of three people is suddenly given into the hands of one person.

Because once a child is born it is alive and therefore both parents are responsible for it.

 

[manifold]

Because once a child is born it is alive and therefore both parents are responsible for it.

And the guy did exercise his choice when dumped his baby batter.

 

[Ravi]

And the guy did exercise his choice when dumped his baby batter.

baby batter, bun in the oven...I wonder why we so often equate children with food?

 

[manifold]

baby batter, bun in the oven...I wonder why we so often equate children with food?

I've heard that baby batter is high in protein anyway.

 

[Ravi]

lol.

You heard? uh huh

 

[manifold]

lol.

You heard? uh huh

No, actually I conducted my own experiment to scientifically determine the protein content of jizz.

Of course I heard...Doofus!

 

[Ravi]

I didn't mean to put down your lifestyle.

 

[The_Hammer]

Maybe you could explain how making abortion illegal, will stop any of these young women from getting an abortion black market, or going somewhere abortion is legal?

Even if Roe v Wade is reversed by the SC, it would revert back to the States, what was in their laws before Roe v wade, unless they have modified them....and I believe I read that more than half of the States had abortion as a legal procedure in one way or another.

So even IF Roe v wade is reversed and half the states do not have abortion as legal, the other half will and NOT ONE abortion that was gonna happen, will be prevented from happening if the self determination of the mother to be is to have an abortion.

It is the hearts and minds that need to be changed regarding abortion that will make a difference imho....not any laws...

And when abortion was illegal, it was only illegal for the doctor to perform one...there was no law punishing the mother to be that had one....and there never will be one against the mother to be, imho....no one in Congress would have the guts to do such.... this 'sets up' the back alley abortion and unsafe conditions for the mother to be by our government....two wrongs don't make a "right"....imo.

This issue is much more complicated than what is usually discussed....

Care

The point I made was that you can't make abortions illegal because people would get them anyway. Making people more aware of the actions would reduce but not stop them, by any large margin either.

 

[The_Hammer]

Because once a child is born it is alive and therefore both parents are responsible for it.

Yes but both of those parents don't get to decide whether the child is to be born or not. Granted this is a biological difference, but it still comes down to one person deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy that could hurt someone elses life.

In no way do I believe that a father should abandon his children. I'm just saying that in all fairness the option should exsist if he has no control on whether or not he will be a father or not.

 

[Ravi]

if he has no control on whether or not he will be a father or not.

Ah, but he has absolute control over whether or not he will be a father.

It's called a zipper.

 

[AllieBaba]

Maybe you could explain how making abortion illegal, will stop any of these young women from getting an abortion black market, or going somewhere abortion is legal?

Even if Roe v Wade is reversed by the SC, it would revert back to the States, what was in their laws before Roe v wade, unless they have modified them....and I believe I read that more than half of the States had abortion as a legal procedure in one way or another.

So even IF Roe v wade is reversed and half the states do not have abortion as legal, the other half will and NOT ONE abortion that was gonna happen, will be prevented from happening if the self determination of the mother to be is to have an abortion.

It is the hearts and minds that need to be changed regarding abortion that will make a difference imho....not any laws...

And when abortion was illegal, it was only illegal for the doctor to perform one...there was no law punishing the mother to be that had one....and there never will be one against the mother to be, imho....no one in Congress would have the guts to do such.... this 'sets up' the back alley abortion and unsafe conditions for the mother to be by our government....two wrongs don't make a "right"....imo.

This issue is much more complicated than what is usually discussed....

Care

What's wrong is when the state funds wholesale slaughter of children.

The fact is, a woman makes a choice whether or not to get pregnant. An abortion takes away the rights, and life, of a child. Period.

 

[Shogun]

Ah, but he has absolute control over whether or not he will be a father.

It's called a zipper.

um, so does she in that very same regard.. If you don't want a society that puts a different status on the female libido then it's going to have to hit every similar speedbump that gets blamed on men in regards to making choices. You want equality? Welcome to what your bra burning ancestors were fighting for.

 

[Ravi]

um, so does she in that very same regard.. If you don't want a society that puts a different status on the female libido then it's going to have to hit every similar speedbump that gets blamed on men in regards to making choices. You want equality? Welcome to what your bra burning ancestors were fighting for.

When men can get pregnant, get back to me.

I had nothing to do with the overall design of humans and life isn't fair. Denying care to a living child is something neither parent should be allowed to do.