Is faith a choice?

[manifold]

Is faith, or lack of it, a choice?

For people who believe in God, do you think you could choose not to?

For atheists other than Shogun, do you think you could honestly choose to believe in God, and really actually believe?

 

[Ravi]

After careful consideration of the evidence, or lack of evidence, of the existence of God, why would it not be a choice to believe or disbelieve?

 

[manifold]

After careful consideration of the evidence, or lack of evidence, of the existence of God, why would it not be a choice to believe or disbelieve?

You can choose what evidence you'll consider and all that, but I just don't understand how the matter is reduced to a simple choice in the end. If you think a true choice exists, I submit that you don't really have faith at all, regardless of whatever choice you think you are making.

 

[Ravi]

I don't know if I'm getting your meaning.

If one just doesn't know, one isn't making a choice to believe or to not believe, correct...wouldn't that mean that being unsure is a choice?

 

[manifold]

I don't know if I'm getting your meaning.

If one just doesn't know, one isn't making a choice to believe or to not believe, correct...wouldn't that mean that being unsure is a choice?

No. It would only be a "choice" if surety was also an option. In your example it isn't.

I'm really struggling with notion that you (and Shogun) don't actually understand the concept of choice. Are you really that dense or are you just pulling my leg?

 

[Ravi]

I'm just not convinced either way.

Belief in evolution is a choice. So why not belief in a supernatural being? There's also the fact that it is easier to believe something if you've been indoctrinated as a child...no real choice there, but the choice comes when you learn to reason.

 

[manifold]

Belief in evolution is a choice.

Not really. No more than belief in gravity is a choice. Unless of course you believe that denial in general is a choice. I guess a case could be made to that effect, but not by me and I ain't buying it.

 

[Ravi]

You do know that there are alternate theories of gravity, correct? So yes, belief in the conventional theory of gravity is a choice.

 

[Ravi]

Then there is confirmation bias, which means only considering evidence that backs up your belief. One can certainly make a choice to discount things that don't fit.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Not really. No more than belief in gravity is a choice. Unless of course you believe that denial in general is a choice. I guess a case could be made to that effect, but not by me and I ain't buying it.

It is a choice. If it is not a freely made choice it is meaningless. That is why forced conversions are failures.

As for Evolution, the only thing proven in evolution is that WITHIN a species change occurs. There is NO evidence that one creature can evolve into 2 DIFFERENT species. And there is no proof man was an Ape like creature.

Gravity exists but we do not truly know how it exists. Just the effects of Gravity.

 

[KungFusion]

I would say "choice" probably isn't the ideal term to describe it. One doesn't necessarily choose certainty. If we're calling it a choice, we need to acknowledge that it's not a strictly rational one (in either the case of belief OR disbelief), because it involves a leap of faith to a conclusion that cannot be proven, yet nonetheless results in an absolute conviction about a metaphysical Truth. Again, this applies to convinced atheists just as much as it applies to convinced believers.

I'm thinking of Neils Bhor's comment to a visitor who noticed the horshoe which he had placed above his door to ward of evil spirits. The visitor said something to the effect of, "Being such an eminent physicist, i wouldn't have thought you were the superstitious type". Bhor replied with, "Well, of course i don't believe that it wards of evil spirits, but i've heard that it works even if you don't believe in it . . . " - i think that's as close as we can ever get to choosing a belief: going through the motions with the hope that it might work in spite of our uncertainty.

 

[Ravi]

I would say "choice" probably isn't the ideal term to describe it. One doesn't necessarily choose certainty. If we're calling it a choice, we need to acknowledge that it's not a strictly rational one (in either the case of belief OR disbelief), because it involves a leap of faith to a conclusion that cannot be proven, yet nonetheless results in an absolute conviction about a metaphysical Truth. Again, this applies to convinced atheists just as much as it applies to convinced believers.

I'm thinking of Neils Bhor's comment to a visitor who noticed the horshoe which he had placed above his door to ward of evil spirits. The visitor said something to the effect of, "Being such an eminent physicist, i wouldn't have thought you were the superstitious type". Bhor replied with, "Well, of course i don't believe that it wards of evil spirits, but i've heard that it works even if you don't believe in it . . . " - i think that's as close as we can ever get to choosing a belief: going through the motions with the hope that it might work in spite of our uncertainty.

That makes me think how when people have a crises of faith they are often told that it is normal to have one...basically, move along, nothing to see here...which helps goose along the choice to believe.

 

[Shogun]

It's not a confusion about what the concept of Choice is, dude. It's acknowledging that evidence will always play a more important role than blind faith for some of us. If jebus walked the streets performing miracles and offered tangible evidence then the atheists of the world would have more to consider in their CHOICE of belief than nutters and thumpers with opinions. As it is, I've chosen atheism because my standard of evidence is higher than what thumpers have to offer in the way of proof.


and no, dude.. CHOICE in spirituality is not the same thing as sexual orientation.


I bust be off of my game to be able to make such distinctions.

 

[AllieBaba]

You can choose what evidence you'll consider and all that, but I just don't understand how the matter is reduced to a simple choice in the end. If you think a true choice exists, I submit that you don't really have faith at all, regardless of whatever choice you think you are making.

The whole point of Christianity is choice. We choose whether to believe Jesus is the son of God or not. We choose whether we want to follow God or not.

It's a choice just like choosing to believe there is no God is a choice.

 

[AllieBaba]

It's not a confusion about what the concept of Choice is, dude. It's acknowledging that evidence will always play a more important role than blind faith for some of us. If jebus walked the streets performing miracles and offered tangible evidence then the atheists of the world would have more to consider in their CHOICE of belief than nutters and thumpers with opinions. As it is, I've chosen atheism because my standard of evidence is higher than what thumpers have to offer in the way of proof.


and no, dude.. CHOICE in spirituality is not the same thing as sexual orientation.


I bust be off of my game to be able to make such distinctions.

Really? If your standard of evidence is so much higher than the average Christians, then you must have some evidence to support your conviction. What evidence do you have regarding the creation of the world? What evidence do you have that explains the spark of life? Surely you have evidence that shows the Bible isn't a truthful or accurate document.

No?

So, once again, it just comes down to faith. The fact that you choose not to believe in God is simply a choice, based upon nothing but your own heart, and as such is no more valid than any bible-thumping nutters choice to believe.

 

[manifold]

The whole point of Christianity is choice. We choose whether to believe Jesus is the son of God or not. We choose whether we want to follow God or not.

It's a choice just like choosing to believe there is no God is a choice.

So why did you choose to believe in God?

 

[AllieBaba]

I couldn't see a good reason not to. Every promise made to me in the Bible has been kept, even when I didn't believe. The more I learned and the better educated I became, the more evident it became to me that there absolutely is a God, and Jesus is his son, and there are no accidents.

Believe me, I wasn't raised in a Christian family, either.

 

[Care4all]

It seems to me that it is a choice based on one's own decision to have Faith....it can not be forced upon people....by people.

Faith does not have to have all the facts before you.... before it shows up, in my opinion...so maybe there is an underlying spiritual sense that moves people to have Faith....that moves people in to their own decision of such...but that I can't prove....

care

 

[manifold]

I couldn't see a good reason not to. Every promise made to me in the Bible has been kept, even when I didn't believe. The more I learned and the better educated I became, the more evident it became to me that there absolutely is a God, and Jesus is his son, and there are no accidents.

Believe me, I wasn't raised in a Christian family, either.

Yet you still think you could honestly choose not to believe in God?

 

[manifold]

I really don't think I'm getting my point across accurately. And that's my fault completely. Perhaps if I said "conscious" choice it would be a bit clearer. Or to put it another way, I view faith as somewhat analogous to love. Most people would agree (I think) that one doesn't really get to choose who they fall in love with. You either love a person, or you don't. And similarly, you either have faith or you don't.