A sobering question regarding US bombing Iran nuke program

[Cellblock2429]

My position is that the war should continue till the Islamic Republic is defeated and the mullahs are out of power

/---/ That never ends well. It's up to the people of Iran to kick out the IR.

 

[Mac-7]

/---/ That never ends well. It's up to the people of Iran to kick out the IR.

Exactly

No one except quasi pacifists has suggested an invasion of Iran

And even they use the idea as a straw man that they dont take seriously

Israel is targeting the current government of Iran and putting pressure on the regime

I dont think it can stand that pressure for very long

 

[Cellblock2429]

The Iran leaders have been far more honest and fair than US leaders who deliberately lied about Iraqi WMD in order to get Iraq's oil.

/----/ "Iraqi WMD in order to get Iraq's oil."

 

[Zavulon]

My position is that the war should continue till the Islamic Republic is defeated and the mullahs are out of power

And what then? Who told you that new regime will be somehow better for the USA and Israel than mullahs? Actually, highly likely it was stubbornness and incompetence of religious fanatics that kept Iran from earning nuclear weapons and became much more dangerous adversary. Secular (and pro-Russian/pro-Chinese) Iran might create more interesting challenges.

 

[Mac-7]

And what then? Who told you that new regime will be somehow better for the USA and Israel than mullahs?

It cant be any worse

Most Iranians living in the US are quite reasonable and nothing like the wild crazy guys ruling over Iran now

 

[Zavulon]

It cant be any worse

Most Iranians living in the US are quite reasonable and nothing like the wild crazy guys ruling over Iran now

Of course it can be much worse. Comparing with, say, Russian Cult of Mother Wet Soil, or with Nuclear Orthodoxy , mullahs are cute kittens and Shii Islam is a modern religion of Peace and Tolerancy.
Iranians living in USA, became more American like. Iranians (actually, there are a lot of groups, but we can be sure about Azeri and Persians) who live and communicate with Russians - became more Russian-like. Like, say, popular Iranian singer Shiraz doesn't looks like very Islamic, does she?

So, your bombing campaigns will just push Iranians towads Russia, and Russia will accept them.
And if you think, that secular Iranians will love you - think one more time.

 

[Mac-7]

mullahs are cute kittens and Shii Islam is a modern religion of Peace and Tolerancy.

What have you been smokin’ ?

The mullah’s may not stand 10 feet tall the way many Westerners think of them as

Israel exposed them for the incompetent boobs that they really are

But they do have fangs and death is the only way to render them harmless

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ayatollah Proudly Announces Iran Has Destroyed 14 Bunker Buster Bombs With Its Nuclear Facilities

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.

 

[Zavulon]

What have you been smokin’ ?

The mullah’s may not stand 10 feet tall the way many Westerners think of them as

Israel exposed them for the incompetent boobs that they really are

But they do have fangs and death is the only way to render them harmless

It's all relative, isn't it? I don't say they are "absolutely harmless". But, comparing with, say, Russians - yep, they are cute, nice and practically harmless. You kill all mullah's and what? Do you believe, that without them Iranians might become peaceful and civilised guys by themselves? Do you actually believe that humans are basically kind and nice creatures and only evil magic of the Dark Wisards makes them bad and you need only to kill them (Wisards) to raise the curse and return them in the natural kingdom of light and safety? If so, you are wrong. It doesn't work this way. Basically we all are beasts. Civilisation is pretty thin layer and by destroying it, by creating anarchy (and anarchy is what you get after destruction of the existing order and without building your own) you just unleash their inner animals.
And they won't build "New Democratic Iran" (for working and mastered democracy demands a lot of efforts, resources and goodwill). They will build something more... traditional (in the worst meaning of the word). Something pre-Islamic. May be, it will be a Persian Cult of Fire, may be - something even more archaic, for significant part of Iranian population are not Persians. But there is one thing for sure - you won't like the result, for if there are no American boots on the ground, there will be Russian or Chinese boots on the ground.

 

[Mac-7]

It's all relative, isn't it? I don't say they are "absolutely harmless". But, comparing with, say, Russians - yep, they are cute, nice and practically harmless. You kill all mullah's and what? Do you believe, that without them Iranians might become peaceful and civilised guys by themselves? Do you actually believe that humans are basically kind and nice creatures and only evil magic of the Dark Wisards makes them bad and you need only to kill them (Wisards) to raise the curse and return them in the natural kingdom of light and safety? If so, you are wrong. It doesn't work this way. Basically we all are beasts. Civilisation is pretty thin layer and by destroying it, by creating anarchy (and anarchy is what you get after destruction of the existing order and without building your own) you just unleash their inner animals.
And they won't build "New Democratic Iran" (for working and mastered democracy demands a lot of efforts, resources and goodwill). They will build something more... traditional (in the worst meaning of the word). Something pre-Islamic. May be, it will be a Persian Cult of Fire, may be - something even more archaic, for significant part of Iranian population are not Persians. But there is one thing for sure - you won't like the result, for if there are no American boots on the ground, there will be Russian or Chinese boots on the ground.

I dont know what happens after the mullahs are gone

But they are a threat to every rational person until they rule iran

 

[Zavulon]

I dont know what happens after the mullahs are gone

That's the problem. You don't know and you don't want to think about it. You just don't care about potential consequences of your actions.

But they are a threat to every rational person until they rule iran

They are rational (in their own way). Anyway. Let's play a game. You've killed all mullah's (every one of them). You've destroyed all mosques in Iran. You even gave them enough of scientific knowledge to allow Scientific Atheism became the new official ideology of the Democratic People's Republic of Iran, under patronage of Russia and China (like DPRK), but with much larger amount of resources and larger number of well educated people (because of the larger population) and with much greater number (better quality) of nuclear bombs.
Will it decrease or increase safety of the USA and their regional allies?

 

[gipper]

It's all relative, isn't it? I don't say they are "absolutely harmless". But, comparing with, say, Russians - yep, they are cute, nice and practically harmless. You kill all mullah's and what? Do you believe, that without them Iranians might become peaceful and civilised guys by themselves? Do you actually believe that humans are basically kind and nice creatures and only evil magic of the Dark Wisards makes them bad and you need only to kill them (Wisards) to raise the curse and return them in the natural kingdom of light and safety? If so, you are wrong. It doesn't work this way. Basically we all are beasts. Civilisation is pretty thin layer and by destroying it, by creating anarchy (and anarchy is what you get after destruction of the existing order and without building your own) you just unleash their inner animals.
And they won't build "New Democratic Iran" (for working and mastered democracy demands a lot of efforts, resources and goodwill). They will build something more... traditional (in the worst meaning of the word). Something pre-Islamic. May be, it will be a Persian Cult of Fire, may be - something even more archaic, for significant part of Iranian population are not Persians. But there is one thing for sure - you won't like the result, for if there are no American boots on the ground, there will be Russian or Chinese boots on the ground.

We need a lot more anarchy and a lot less government. Obviously.

 

[Zavulon]

We need a lot more anarchy and a lot less government. Obviously.

Do you need more anarchy in the USA or in Iran? And no, keeping anarchy demands constant interventions. Without them society almost instantly getting cristalized.

 

[gipper]

Do you need more anarchy in the USA or in Iran? And no, keeping anarchy demands constant interventions. Without them society almost instantly getting cristalized.

Not sure what your point is. If you think anarchy causes constant war, you’re uninformed.

Government as practiced for thousands of years, leads to constant war. Obviously.

Anarchy leads to cooperation and no major wars.

Why do you want some dumb **** leader to tell you what to do? Do you really think your leader knows or cares what you want? Why give authority over you to someone else?

 

[Zavulon]

Not sure what your point is. If you think anarchy causes constant war, you’re uninformed.

Government as practiced for thousands of years, leads to constant war. Obviously.

Anarchy leads to cooperation and no major wars.

Why do you want some dumb **** leader to tell you what to do? Do you really think your leader knows or cares what you want? Why give authority over you to someone else?

We are all human beings. We always tell other people what to do and what not to do. That is what human speech is about. Take a hundred of random people and allow them to be on their own and talk with each other - rather sooner than later they will unite in gangs and gangs will fight (more or less violently) against each other. And then, depending on how much they need cooperation for their survival, in the matter of days or weeks you'll see some social structure.

 

[gipper]

We are all human beings. We always tell other people what to do and what not to do. That is what human speech is about. Take a hundred of random people and allow them to be on their own and talk with each other - rather sooner than later they will unite in gangs and gangs will fight (more or less violently) against each other. And then, depending on how much they need cooperation for their survival, in the matter of days or weeks you'll see some social structure.

Silly. Except with government, if you refuse to do what they tell you they might kill or imprison you. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Stop trying to support government. It’s nonsense.

 

[Zavulon]

Silly. Except with government, if you refuse to do what they tell you they might kill or imprison you. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Stop trying to support government. It’s nonsense.

If there is no government and you refuse to do what a gang leader told you to do - he'll kill you much sooner than any government.

 

[gipper]

If there is no government and you refuse to do what a gang leader told you to do - he'll kill you much sooner than any government.

I’ll take my chances. Besides with anarchy people cooperate with each other as they do today, only without government coercion. Gangleaders don’t tend to live long. People work together to oppose them.

 

[Zavulon]

I’ll take my chances. Besides with anarchy people cooperate with each other as they do today, only without government coercion. Gangleaders don’t tend to live long. People work together to oppose them.

To oppose a gang you need a bigger gang. And the biggest gang survived becomes a government. Cooperation of the large collectives demands strict rules, and strict rules becomes the laws. As Russians say: "Anarchiya - mat' poryadka" (Anarchy is a mother of order). Close to English saying: "Out of chaos comes order".
Putinism (as the new political order) was raised from (and feed by) anarchy of 90-s.

 

[gipper]

To oppose a gang you need a bigger gang. And the biggest gang survived becomes a government. Cooperation of the large collectives demands strict rules, and strict rules becomes the laws. As Russians say: "Anarchiya - mat' poryadka" (Anarchy is a mother of order). Close to English saying: "Out of chaos comes order".
Putinism (as the new political order) was raised from (and feed by) anarchy of 90-s.

What you support is a far more dangerous gang. Government. Why do you feel compelled to grant authority over yourself to other flawed human beings, just because they claim to be government? It’s nonsensical. You think government provides stability, justice, and fairness. Nothing could be further from the truth. It merely provides another form of tyranny.

We’ve all been indoctrinated from birth to obey government and submit to its authority. This we are told, makes us good citizens. No! It makes us serfs to a criminal enterprise.