CDZ A reminder that the rhetoric we hear about a country may not represent the people in that country

[320 Years of History]

Among my various hobbies and interests, food is one that I get to indulge more often than most of the others. Some folks might even consider me a "foodie." Being interested in nearly all things food related, I from time to time watch Anthony Bourdain's show Parts Unknown. Yesterday, I happened to catch his Iran episode. I encourage anyone to watch it.



Watching the program, I couldn't help but think that all the hoopla we hear about what Iran aims to do isn't at all what the people of Iran aim to make happen. Indeed, prior to seeing the show, I thought sure that the people shown in it would somehow come across as being notably different from the Persians with whom I'm acquainted. They really weren't at all.

The program serves as a reminder that at the "short end" of any government official's political rhetoric "stick" are people. I suspect some (maybe many) Westerners have a false impression of Iranians, Muslims, and other Arabs. I've definitely observed from my years working in the PRC that the way China is depicted in the American press and what the people whom I've met actually want and believe aren't even close to the same things.

 

[irosie91]

to Mr. CDZ ----over the years of my life I have interacted with people from OTHER
countries who were new comers to the USA-------more than 50 years of doing so.
I have been FASCINATED with the rhetoric about the people of the USA with which
THEY have been inculcated.

 

[Searcher44]

Among my various hobbies and interests, food is one that I get to indulge more often than most of the others. Some folks might even consider me a "foodie." Being interested in nearly all things food related, I from time to time watch Anthony Bourdain's show Parts Unknown. Yesterday, I happened to catch his Iran episode. I encourage anyone to watch it.



Watching the program, I couldn't help but think that all the hoopla we hear about what Iran aims to do isn't at all what the people of Iran aim to make happen. Indeed, prior to seeing the show, I thought sure that the people shown in it would somehow come across as being notably different from the Persians with whom I'm acquainted. They really weren't at all.

The program serves as a reminder that at the "short end" of any government official's political rhetoric "stick" are people. I suspect some (maybe many) Westerners have a false impression of Iranians, Muslims, and other Arabs. I've definitely observed from my years working in the PRC that the way China is depicted in the American press and what the people whom I've met actually want and believe aren't even close to the same things.

My family doctor is Iranian. She speaks English amazingly well. When I mentioned this she laughed and said her 7 yr. old son did not agree. She says he's always teasing her about her bad English. Still I think for only six years in Canada and on the whole self-taught within the Family circle it's near perfect. And she is a lovely person, caring and smart. I hear voices from fear mongers say "do not trust her" "her religion has taught her to hate" me. "She has been taught that you (I) must convert, be subjugated or die." I can assure you this is nonsense, she is one of the 1.6 billion Muslims who just want a peaceful life for her children, her family and herself.

 

[Unkotare]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

 

[irosie91]

Among my various hobbies and interests, food is one that I get to indulge more often than most of the others. Some folks might even consider me a "foodie." Being interested in nearly all things food related, I from time to time watch Anthony Bourdain's show Parts Unknown. Yesterday, I happened to catch his Iran episode. I encourage anyone to watch it.



Watching the program, I couldn't help but think that all the hoopla we hear about what Iran aims to do isn't at all what the people of Iran aim to make happen. Indeed, prior to seeing the show, I thought sure that the people shown in it would somehow come across as being notably different from the Persians with whom I'm acquainted. They really weren't at all.

The program serves as a reminder that at the "short end" of any government official's political rhetoric "stick" are people. I suspect some (maybe many) Westerners have a false impression of Iranians, Muslims, and other Arabs. I've definitely observed from my years working in the PRC that the way China is depicted in the American press and what the people whom I've met actually want and believe aren't even close to the same things.

My family doctor is Iranian. She speaks English amazingly well. When I mentioned this she laughed and said her 7 yr. old son did not agree. She says he's always teasing her about her bad English. Still I think for only six years in Canada and on the whole self-taught within the Family circle it's near perfect. And she is a lovely person, caring and smart. I hear voices from fear mongers say "do not trust her" "her religion has taught her to hate" me. "She has been taught that you (I) must convert, be subjugated or die." I can assure you this is nonsense, she is one of the 1.6 billion Muslims who just want a peaceful life for her children, her family and herself.

I have know MANY MANY Iranians------over the past 50 years. Most of them
muslims---some of them jews. Most of them have been doctors-----as far as
I have observed you have nothing to fear from Iranian doctors----not the muslims
and not the jews. Iranians immigrants are VERY WELL EDUCATED-----
the rise of the AYATOILETS caused a brain drain in Iran. I started encountering
Iranians who were FLEEING Iran way back in the 1960s------most of them were
jewish teenagers-------the scent of Islamic radicalism was already in the air over
there and jewish parents were shipping their kids out. Hatred of jews BECAME
an issue in Iran-----with the "cultural revoltion" (circa 1980)-----before that it existed but was not a real social issue any more than hatred of jews by Lutherans is an issue in the USA. People TODAY who have problems with Iranian muslims
are non muslims IN IRAN------like the few surviving Zoroastrians, and the BAHAI
sect and Christians------and very interstingly-------SUNNIS ----and ethnic arabs. The very characteristic FARSI accent never seems to go away----which is probably what excites your doc's son

 

[irosie91]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

what does your post mean? The average kid is very much affected by that which he learns in school. Every Iranian school has an official answerable to the government re CURRICULUM

 

[Unkotare]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

what does your post mean? The average kid is very much affected by that which he learns in school. Every Iranian school has an official answerable to the government re CURRICULUM

Your comment seems disconnected from mine. You'll have to clarify.

 

[irosie91]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

what does your post mean? The average kid is very much affected by that which he learns in school. Every Iranian school has an official answerable to the government re CURRICULUM

Your comment seems disconnected from mine. You'll have to clarify.

you commented on the people of iran ---it seems to me---THEIR
REACTION to the rhetoric of the theocratic leaders of Iran. YOUR
comment followed a post describing an Iranian Canadian doctor as
"very nice" I consider my comment about YOUR comment to be
more germane to YOUR comment than YOUR comment is to that of
"searcher" who likes his very nice Iranian doctor. I will comment
a bit further. For Iran ----a doctor is a very educated person. She
LEFT. Lots of people who remain in Iran are not all that educated and
are very very much influenced by that which they learn in SCHOOL and
from the public media of Iran which, in general, is controlled by the
theocratic government. SOME people are not all that influenced.
In my limited experience------People from TEHERAN tend to
-----keep to their own opinions. So far-----I (in my limited experience)
never heard of 'terrroist' actions by Iranian immigrants in the USA

 

[Unkotare]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

 

[irosie91]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

 

[Unkotare]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

 

[irosie91]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I am not a tourist-----I deal with very hard reality. The closest I ever go to
YOUR kind of "experience" was the fact I was invited to a picnics
hosted by Iranians. I did not learn about the IRANIANS from those
picnics other than the fact that they always seem to want some kind
of melon after the shish kebob. I also learned a bit about the use of saffron

 

[Unkotare]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I am not a tourist-----I deal with very hard reality. The closest I ever go to
YOUR kind of "experience" was the fact I was invited to a picnics
hosted by Iranians. I did not learn about the IRANIANS from those
picnics other than the fact that they always seem to want some kind
of melon after the shish kebob. I also learned a bit about the use of saffron

If there is some reason you don't want to answer the question, feel free to just say so.

Also, what do you mean by "YOUR kind of experience"?

 

[320 Years of History]

to Mr. CDZ ----over the years of my life I have interacted with people from OTHER
countries who were new comers to the USA-------more than 50 years of doing so.
I have been FASCINATED with the rhetoric about the people of the USA with which
THEY have been inculcated.

There's no doubt in my mind that "it" works both ways. I don't blame folks who have "an axe to grind" for trying to sow the seeds of misrepresentation, I blame their respective audiences for allowing them to take root.

P.S.
Who is Mr. CDZ?

 

[320 Years of History]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

Perhaps nobody. However, plenty of folks right here on this forum have written "Muslims this" and "Muslims that," lumping all Muslims into the same category, right in line with remarks made by political leaders and/or aspirants that do exactly the same thing. Iranians are but one subset of Muslims and Mr. Bourdain's show focused on them, so rather than with no specifics to cite about other Arab peoples, Iranians are the people of whom I wrote in my OP. Had the video I included in the OP focused also on Kuwaitis, for example, I'd have written "Iranians and Kuwaitis."

That said, the point of the OP and thread isn't about what Iranians are like, but rather how rhetoric misrepresents reality and the inequity and disingenuousness of such rhetoric.

 

[irosie91]

Who exactly was indicating that they thought the rhetoric of the Iranian theocracy or the CCP reflected the people of those countries?

Perhaps nobody. However, plenty of folks right here on this forum have written "Muslims this" and "Muslims that," lumping all Muslims into the same category, right in line with remarks made by political leaders and/or aspirants that do exactly the same thing. Iranians are but one subset of Muslims and Mr. Bourdain's show focused on them, so rather than with no specifics to cite about other Arab peoples, Iranians are the people of whom I wrote in my OP. Had the video I included in the OP focused also on Kuwaitis, for example, I'd have written "Iranians and Kuwaitis."

That said, the point of the OP and thread isn't about what Iranians are like, but rather how rhetoric misrepresents reality and the inequity and disingenuousness of such rhetoric.

you make a good point------sorta. Not entirely perfect but sorta good. Regarding muslims, there are LOTS OF COMMONALITIES in the ethos taught to the various
muslim groups all over the world just as there are lots of commonalities in the ethos
learned by Christians all over the world and by the various jewish groups all over the world. THUS it is not entirely invalid to say "muslims are taught" just as it is not entirely invalid to say "Christians are taught" or even 'hindus are taught".
I would be perfectly happy to discuss with you DIFFERENCES I have noticed in the general perspective of IRANIAN MUSLIMS vs----PAKISTANI MUSLIMS----however I see nothing wrong with noting the GENERAL ETHOS of islam----just as
I see nothing wrong with discussing the general ETHOS of Judaism. In fact I have already stated that I have never heard of any Iranian muslim immigrant who was involved in terrorism------and to expand on that thought----by virtue of what I know about Iranians in the USA-------I doubt that there will be any. BUT based on what I have observed of PAKISTANI MUSLIMS------I believe we will see more of that which we saw in California. SEE???? DIFFERENT----a DIFFERENT COMMENT for a different group of muslims. I am really tired of that fake accusation
""" YOU SAID ALL MUSLIMS......... """ nope---I never did

 

[Unkotare]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I am not a tourist-----I deal with very hard reality. The closest I ever go to
YOUR kind of "experience" was the fact I was invited to a picnics
hosted by Iranians. I did not learn about the IRANIANS from those
picnics other than the fact that they always seem to want some kind
of melon after the shish kebob. I also learned a bit about the use of saffron

If there is some reason you don't want to answer the question, feel free to just say so.

Also, what do you mean by "YOUR kind of experience"?

.

 

[320 Years of History]

You seem determined to respond to what you wish to see rather than what I said. Regardless, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I am not a tourist-----I deal with very hard reality. The closest I ever go to
YOUR kind of "experience" was the fact I was invited to a picnics
hosted by Iranians. I did not learn about the IRANIANS from those
picnics other than the fact that they always seem to want some kind
of melon after the shish kebob. I also learned a bit about the use of saffron

If there is some reason you don't want to answer the question, feel free to just say so.

Also, what do you mean by "YOUR kind of experience"?

.

??? Really? You posted absolutely nothing? Are we to take it that you felt a need to have your avatar represented just so we know you are still around?

I wouldn't have said anything but 24 hours has passed since you made post #17, and you've not updated it with anything of merit.

 

[320 Years of History]

you make a good point------sorta. Not entirely perfect but sorta good. Regarding muslims, there are LOTS OF COMMONALITIES in the ethos taught to the various
muslim groups all over the world just as there are lots of commonalities in the ethos
learned by Christians all over the world and by the various jewish groups all over the world. THUS it is not entirely invalid to say "muslims are taught" just as it is not entirely invalid to say "Christians are taught" or even 'hindus are taught".
I would be perfectly happy to discuss with you DIFFERENCES I have noticed in the general perspective of IRANIAN MUSLIMS vs----PAKISTANI MUSLIMS----however I see nothing wrong with noting the GENERAL ETHOS of islam----just as
I see nothing wrong with discussing the general ETHOS of Judaism. In fact I have already stated that I have never heard of any Iranian muslim immigrant who was involved in terrorism------and to expand on that thought----by virtue of what I know about Iranians in the USA-------I doubt that there will be any. BUT based on what I have observed of PAKISTANI MUSLIMS------I believe we will see more of that which we saw in California. SEE???? DIFFERENT----a DIFFERENT COMMENT for a different group of muslims. I am really tired of that fake accusation
""" YOU SAID ALL MUSLIMS......... """ nope---I never did

I have used two colors to highlight certain phrases/statements you've written above. The key distinction between the content in red and that in blue is that the red text provides qualifiers that make it clear you refer to a specific subset of the Muslim community. The phrase in blue does not make that distinction.

When someone writes "Muslims are taught," their words necessarily refer to all or substantially all Muslims, even if that isn't what they had in mind to communicate. Now I bid you, next time you see folks on here writing in unqualified terms about Muslims, ask yourself if whatever the things they specify pertain to all Muslims.

As for Muslims who hailed originally from Pakistan, I can't say I know any. I encounter such a person from time to time when I take a taxi, but that's as much interaction as I have had with Pakistani Muslims, or Pakistanis in general. That said, I've encountered more Pakistanis than I have Persians, for I am well acquainted with only five Persians and have no awareness of having met others. Accordingly, I have personal experiences that will give me insight about the relative likelihood of seeing terrorism perpetrated by Pakistanis vs. by Iranians/Persians.

As for the general ethos of Islam, I am not inclined to believe Islam has a "general ethos" of violence. I base that only on my readings of the Quran and the scholarly content I've read about matter and related topics. Some of that material includes, but is not limited to, the following:

• Using the Qur’an to Justify Terrorist Violence: Analysing Selective Application of the Qur’an in English-Language Militant Islamist Discourse | Holbrook | Perspectives on Terrorism
  
• Conceptions of War in Islamic Legal Theory and Practice
  
• Faith or Doctrine? Religion and Support for Political Violence in Pakistan -- This paper discusses, among other things, the link (probabilistic correspondence) between one's (groups') being Muslim and Pakistani and their supporting political violence.
  
• The Process of Radicalization | Small Wars Journal
  
• Islam and Political Violence
• The Quran in Its Historical Context
• http://ejum.fsktm.um.edu.my/article/1302.pdf
  
• http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/44/674/8584.pdf
  
• http://jeannicod.ccsd.cnrs.fr/ijn_00509568/document
• Genesis of Suicide Terrorism

The fact of the matter is that Islam is not the only theist belief system that finds itself commingled with politics. The abortion debate in the U.S. is one such political topic. Ditto conscientious objection, capital punishment, same sex marriage, whether schools can/should teach evolution or creationism, and more. Moreover, the recent violence Nor is politically motivated violence unique to Islam's adherents.

Be that as it may, nothing in the historical record indicates that Muslims are/have been responsible for nowhere remotely close to most of the politically motivated killings/wars. Though I haven't checked to be sure, I suspect that the last time one Muslims could be accurately stated to be responsible for most of the politically motivated deaths/hurt in the world was when the Ottomans "ruled" the world.


(Click on the image to view its source.)

But that isn't really the key point I seek to make. The central point is that when seeking solutions about terrorism, or any other problem for that matter, we need to remain intellectually cognizant and respectful of the need to be equitable in our proposals and accusations. Whereas I don't personally know, or know enough about, most Muslims to say authoritatively on my own what makes one "bunch" of Muslims collectively different from another, I know enough to know that it's highly unlikely that most Muslims espouse the policy ideas and tactics we see Jihadist Muslims (e.g., ISIS/ISIL, al-Qaeda et al) promote and use.

 

[Unkotare]

I have spent a lot of time with Iranians. since the mid 1960s-----many many many
Iranians------decades ago mostly new comers------more lately----people who have been in the USA for a long time------however Iranians are still spilling out of Iran ---
slowly. Iranians just off the plane-------are still Iranians.. I have been a tourist in other places. Tourist learns nothing

Soooooo, have you spent a lot of time in Iran?

I am not a tourist-----I deal with very hard reality. The closest I ever go to
YOUR kind of "experience" was the fact I was invited to a picnics
hosted by Iranians. I did not learn about the IRANIANS from those
picnics other than the fact that they always seem to want some kind
of melon after the shish kebob. I also learned a bit about the use of saffron

If there is some reason you don't want to answer the question, feel free to just say so.

Also, what do you mean by "YOUR kind of experience"?

.

??? Really? You posted absolutely nothing? Are we to take it that you felt a need to have your avatar represented just so we know you are still around?

I wouldn't have said anything but 24 hours has passed since you made post #17, and you've not updated it with anything of merit.

I wasn't talking to you, I was awaiting a reply from her. Thanks for interjecting unbidden, though.