A hometown example of the necessity of gun rights

[Taomon]

You're not, in any way, showing that, in EVEY case, there is ALWAYS an alterlative to killing.

One really has to wonder -- if you're right, why do policemen carry guns?
And, if a policeman kills someone, should they go to jail, too?

And, of course, you're sidestepping the question:
Why, in a case where you MUST kill someone to stop them from raping your wife, should you go to jail.

I am not sidestepping the issue dude. I answered it. There is no instance where you have to kill another human being to stop a rape. There is no instance inwhich you have to kill another human being because alternatives always exist, always.

And because of this, if you kill - even in self defense, you should serve jail time. The judge can grant you a lenient sentence, but jail time must be involved because you committed a grave crime.

I assume that the police are trained to do everything in their power to not kill using their guns. In fact, that is the reason why the Tazer is now used. And mace and some new devices coming out that use microwaves and soundwaves.

 

[Steerpike]

e. There is no instance inwhich you have to kill another human being because alternatives always exist, always.

I'm leery any time a person uses the word "always" in such a context. You're essentially saying it is impossible for a person to be in a kill or be killed situation (i.e. one where there is no other option). That strains credulity.

 

[Taomon]

I'm leery any time a person uses the word "always" in such a context. You're essentially saying it is impossible for a person to be in a kill or be killed situation (i.e. one where there is no other option). That strains credulity.

Okay, fair enough. But I believe that this statement is true. Please feel free to present a realistic scenario inwhich it is a kill or be killed situation. I cannot think of any.

 

[Lookout]

Hey you two – M14 and Taomon – can’t we agree that it is a judgment call? There is something in police practice called “unnecessary roughness”. We can come up with scenarios in which deadly force would be considered foolish and we can come up with scenarios where shooting someone might be necessary. (You would hope that the gun shot would stop someone but it might also end up killing him. I don’t think that you should be punished if your actions to stop a dangerous intruder results in his death.)

Let’s bring back the foreign student who got lost one night and approached a stranger’s house. Was it really necessary for the home-owner to blow the young unarmed confused young man away when the kid had not even entered the home? I doubt it. Yet, if an aggressive, big, strong, fast, weapon-carrying man breaks into my home and attempts to steal stuff, I think that I’d be justified in shooting him and asking questions later.

Ultimately, the courts will decide if my actions were appropriate given the situation. It is just another example of situational ethics.

Very nice attempt Mattskramer however I doubt it was even contemplated. What we have here is a clasic duel between Taomon and a few others. Though I believe Taomon is wrong, and I have expressed that, I have to give him credit for having the stamina of a nuclear submarine. If nothing else Taomon you are a die hard, no pun or threat intended. You remind me of the musicians on the titanic.
Can ANYONE just agree to disagree?
It really looks as if the horse died, then it was shot, then it was drowned, then it was hung, then it was burried and someone built a high rise on top of it only to be demolished dug back up and shot, drowned, and hung. The autopsy is in...The horse originally died of exhaustion.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It is not a straw man. It is an example that you probably will never acknowledge.

And why is that?
Because a skinny unarmed 12-year-old kid that walks onto my yard in the middle of the day and approaches my door isnt, at that point, a threat to your life or that of someone else.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I am not sidestepping the issue dude. I answered it. There is no instance where you have to kill another human being to stop a rape. There is no instance inwhich you have to kill another human being because alternatives always exist, always.

No. They don't always exist.
You stating that they do in no way makes it so.

I assume that the police are trained to do everything in their power to not kill using their guns.

Since alternatives (supposedly) always exist, I presume you also agree that -every- police officer that kills someome should also go to jail.
Correct?

One has to wonder:
If alternatives always exist, why do police carry guns?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Okay, fair enough. But I believe that this statement is true. Please feel free to present a realistic scenario inwhich it is a kill or be killed situation. I cannot think of any.

Because -you- cannot think of X, X must not exist.

 

[Steerpike]

Okay, fair enough. But I believe that this statement is true. Please feel free to present a realistic scenario inwhich it is a kill or be killed situation. I cannot think of any.

Well I can certainly think of some. They vary from realistic to fantastic.

For example:

I have a cellar with no exit. Two guys break into my house and I can't reach an exit so I have to herd my kids into to basement to hide. The guys realize someone is in the house and come downstairs. They kick the door in. They're threatening to shoot everyone, or perhaps they've already discharged their weapons at least once. I'm in a corner with my kids behind me and a gun in my hand. One of them sees us. Shoots. Misses.

What are my options besides shooting back? Surrendering so they can, if they like, kill us all?

You could go on inventing scenarios like this all day. I can certainly think of situations where killing the other person is the only way to save oneself or family. I've never been in such a situation thankfully, but I won't rule out the possibility that others might be.

I think people should have the right to respond with force proportionate to what is being used against them. If someone is shooting at you, you should be able to shoot back.

 

[M14 Shooter]

What are my options besides shooting back? Surrendering so they can, if they like, kill us all?

Use your G.I Joe Kung Fu grip and block the bullets woth your bare hands, while at the same time, use your Jedi Mind Powers to scramble their brains?

 

[Lookout]

It really looks as if the horse died, then it was shot, then it was drowned, then it was hung, then it was burried and someone built a high rise on top of it only to be demolished dug back up and shot, drowned, and hung. The autopsy is in...The horse originally died of exhaustion.

 

[Lookout]

Taompn, I will make you an honest to God offer. If you will admit you are wrong and shut up and not talk about guns anymore, I will sell one of my guns and donate the money to the charity of your choice.

 

[Taomon]

Taompn, I will make you an honest to God offer. If you will admit you are wrong and shut up and not talk about guns anymore, I will sell one of my guns and donate the money to the charity of your choice.

I agree to disagree. Keep your gun.

 

[Lookout]

I agree to disagree. Keep your gun.

So I just proved everyone that has opposed you right. You don't really want to make change or do anything good to benefit anyone. The only one you care about is you!!! The only thing you are interested in is being right or winning the arguement...YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF WORK!!! OK everyone...are we done here????????

 

[Taomon]

So I just proved everyone that has opposed you right. You don't really want to make change or do anything good to benefit anyone. The only one you care about is you!!! The only thing you are interested in is being right or winning the arguement...YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF WORK!!! OK everyone...are we done here????????

Whatever dude. No matter how I answered that stupid post you would use it as ammunition. So you cannot win an argument with me so you attack my character. How white of you. Rush Limbaugh must be proud.

 

[Taomon]

So I just proved everyone that has opposed you right. You don't really want to make change or do anything good to benefit anyone. The only one you care about is you!!! The only thing you are interested in is being right or winning the arguement...YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF WORK!!! OK everyone...are we done here????????

Hey everyone, Lookout cannot win an argument. Or did you already know that?

 

[Gunny]

Gunny, you are the most blood thirsty person on this board (according to your machismo laced posts).

You don't know WTF you are talking about, junior.

 

[Lookout]

Whatever dude. No matter how I answered that stupid post you would use it as ammunition. So you cannot win an argument with me so you attack my character. How white of you. Rush Limbaugh must be proud.

Your CHARACTER stands out like a sore thumb. Hide as you will behind your self imposed intellect, you are nothing more than a festering scab!!!!

 

[Taomon]

Well I can certainly think of some. They vary from realistic to fantastic.

For example:

I have a cellar with no exit. Two guys break into my house and I can't reach an exit so I have to herd my kids into to basement to hide. The guys realize someone is in the house and come downstairs. They kick the door in. They're threatening to shoot everyone, or perhaps they've already discharged their weapons at least once. I'm in a corner with my kids behind me and a gun in my hand. One of them sees us. Shoots. Misses.

What are my options besides shooting back? Surrendering so they can, if they like, kill us all?

You could go on inventing scenarios like this all day. I can certainly think of situations where killing the other person is the only way to save oneself or family. I've never been in such a situation thankfully, but I won't rule out the possibility that others might be.

I think people should have the right to respond with force proportionate to what is being used against them. If someone is shooting at you, you should be able to shoot back.

Shoot back yes, shoot to kill, not necessarily the only option. Shoot them in the knees, then disarm them, shoot them in the arms and they cannot use them.

 

[Gunny]

So you admit that you made up the scenario and it has never been used in a home invasion. Good, now everyone knows that you are twisting the argument because you know that you are wrong.

No, idiot. It was quite obvious from the first what I meant to everyone but your dumb ass dancing and twisting and ducking and dodging and deflecting trying to support a bullshit argument.

Fact is, YOU are wrong. You hve been since you've opened your mouth and you've been owned by any and everyone that's cared to spank your ass.

 

[Lookout]

Hey everyone, Lookout cannot win an argument. Or did you already know that?

Not only did I win it slam dunk, I brought out your real character...Dude, you have no friends here!!! No one here likes person with a black soul. I believe anyone else on this board would have taken me up on my offer to help some starving children somewhere.
I revert to one of my favorite sayings concerning a person of your caliber...Selfish, self serving, self centered pencil pushing pin headed prick!!! Say what you want, I just gave you an oppertunity to help a starving child and you chose to run your mouth instead. GAME...POINT...MATCH!!!