"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[koshergrl]

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

Oh, 'm arrogant all right, but you're lying again. The truth is that you're afraid that i DO have the intelligence and knowledge to back it up. Otherwise, you wouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent the walls from crumbling.

Delusional. You forgot delusional.

And you're a liar. I have never seen you post any sort of corroborative evidence for anything. All you post are long, gaseous expulsions that illustrate how enamored you are with the sound of your own voice...there's nothing there to tear down. No substance whatever.

 

[koshergrl]

None of those things logically explain why Christians are against freedom?

LOL well, not if you have no clue what the word "freedom" means, I guess.

If you believe that God insists we adopt only one religion, then you don't believe in religious freedom. (Even if you accept the First Amendment guarantees of same, you still think that God rejects religious freedom, and so at heart, you do, too.)

Um, well, if there is no belief in God, then there is no religion, period. And if there is a belief in God, you can freely choose to follow whatever religion you wish. If you choose christianity and you disagree with with their belief system/doctrine, you can go join another religion. There are plenty of 'former' christians out there, they didn't seem to be 'forced' to continue their 'christianity', so your point is wrong.



And that's part of being a christian, but no one forces anyone to be a christian, if you don't believe that the Bible is infallible, then that kind of negates the reason for being a christian, doesn't it? What would be the point then, without the Bible and belief in what it teaches, there is no christian religion. This point is just silly really.



You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by 'narrow', it's just something that you've apparently made up in your own head because you don't understand what christianity is. You don't understand the whole concept of salvation and why it was needed. If you've read the Bible then you know that Jesus stated that no mortal man can be sin free, that's not the expectation at all. The expectation is to live your life in such a way that sin is a rare occurrence. But, if humans could live sin free, there would have been no need for Christ, would there? And again, if you don't want to live your life in that way, you can choose to not be a christian, it's as simple as that. See how freedom works?


If you don't believe what the Bible teaches to begin with, then you don't believe that you'll go to hell, so that's a moot point. If you do, then you know that hell is nothing to fear or worry about because you've found salvation through Christ. So really, hell is neither a threat to the believer or non believer. The believer is saved, the non believer doesn't believe in hell.

And if you believe that only Christians can be forgiven, combined with the above, then again, you don't believe in religious freedom.

How does that affect a Christian's freedom in any way? I don't care what religion you practice, I completely believe that you can practice any religion you want or none. It's your choice, not mine. No one can be forced to accept Christ, there would be no point whatsoever to force someone to be a Christian.

It's really quite obvious. And note, again, that you have implicitly admitted that I have NOT been distorting the views of traditional Christians. Everything I've said about those beliefs, of a factual nature, you agree is true. Your only disagreement lies in what those facts mean.

You don't understand the concepts in Christianity, that's very clear from the remarks that you've made.

Dragon is impressively illiterate on the subject that he likes to blather on about.

 

[Montrovant]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

Now, you might argue that the threat of eternal punishment in hell makes the choice whether or not to believe not a true choice; however, as there is no call to prevent people from expressing differing beliefs (that I am aware of) it really isn't about limiting freedom.

If you want to argue that the idea of eternal punishment doesn't fit with a merciful, loving god, I'll be more than happy to join you. When you say Christians don't believe in freedom, however, I think you are wrong. *Note - I'm sure there are probably a small number of Christians who truly don't believe in freedom, but I think the majority, even many among the die-hard, fundamentalist believers, probably are not opposed to freedom.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Arrogance combined with ignorance is evil.

I guess that makes you one of the most evil motherfuckers on this board then, Halal Twit.

You've got the arrogance to claim you're right because you say that you're right, and that unconfirmed evidence is somehow "proof".

Guess what? There's "proof" (because the signs all point to it and can be verified archaeologically) that the Ark of the Covenant is in Ethiopia, or some believe it's in eastern Canada, located in the vaults of the Vatican, or even possibly buried somewhere underneath Jerusalem in a hidden vault.

Every one of those theories has proof that they could be possible, yet all of them have also been unconfirmed. Trying to link your "proof" to an unconfirmed source is just bullshit of the first water.

But then again, the same thing can be said about other things such as Atlantis, etc.

What makes YOUR interpretation the only "right" one?

 

[Dot Com]

PS, you ignoramus..."Freethinker" is a term for "atheist".

Atheists are Satan's slaves, and anyone who has read Dragon's drivel knows it.

And just who maligned the term freethinker into atheism?
And why?

Oh. My. God.

" one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma"

Freethinker - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

the free thinker..."the voice of atheism since 1881"

The Freethinker

I'm a freethinker. I come to conclusions "on the basis of reason independent of authority" Thanks alliebabble. Church's are all about authority.

 

[hipeter924]

Reminds me of the village in the movie Chocolat.

 

[koshergrl]

Arrogance combined with ignorance is evil.

I guess that makes you one of the most evil motherfuckers on this board then, Halal Twit.

You've got the arrogance to claim you're right because you say that you're right, and that unconfirmed evidence is somehow "proof".

Guess what? There's "proof" (because the signs all point to it and can be verified archaeologically) that the Ark of the Covenant is in Ethiopia, or some believe it's in eastern Canada, located in the vaults of the Vatican, or even possibly buried somewhere underneath Jerusalem in a hidden vault.

Every one of those theories has proof that they could be possible, yet all of them have also been unconfirmed. Trying to link your "proof" to an unconfirmed source is just bullshit of the first water.

But then again, the same thing can be said about other things such as Atlantis, etc.

What makes YOUR interpretation the only "right" one?

I didn't say evidence proved my interpretation of the bible. I said there was evidence of biblical events. I contested the statement that there was NO evidence. I didn't say the evidence proved anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Try again. And try to respond to what I actually say, instead of whatever weird convo is going on in your head.

 

[koshergrl]

And just who maligned the term freethinker into atheism?
And why?

Oh. My. God.

" one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma"

Freethinker - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

the free thinker..."the voice of atheism since 1881"

The Freethinker

I'm a freethinker. I come to conclusions "on the basis of reason independent of authority" Thanks alliebabble. Church's are all about authority.

Good for you?

 

[editec]

The most effective chains are the chains one doesn't know one is wearing

NONE of us are entirely FREE THINKERS because we are all indoctrinated to fit into our society as children.

Most of us are basically slaves to CONVENTION.

And for those who somehow have managed to escape indoctrination that most of us accept as ours by choice?

There's always prison or the death penalty.

Free people, my ass

 

[Big Fitz]

And just who maligned the term freethinker into atheism?
And why?

Oh. My. God.

" one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma"

Freethinker - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

the free thinker..."the voice of atheism since 1881"

The Freethinker

I'm a freethinker. I come to conclusions "on the basis of reason independent of authority" Thanks alliebabble. Church's are all about authority.

So reason is the god of your faith and you are your own high priest.

Good to know the basis of your dogmatic following of your interpretation of reason. I'd love to understand why you consider how you think rational though. No not really, it's a rhetorical statement.

 

[koshergrl]

The most effective chains are the chains one doesn't know one is wearing

NONE of us are entirely FREE THINKERS because we are all indoctrinated to fit into our society as children.

Most of us are basically slaves to CONVENTION.

And for those who somehow have managed to escape indoctrination that most of us accept as ours by choice?

There's always prison or the death penalty.

Free people, my ass

 

[Dragon]

Um, well, if there is no belief in God, then there is no religion, period.

Incorrect; classical Buddhism is non-theistic. Also, as I pointed out above, many Pagans don't believe in the literal existence of our gods.

Even some who do believe in God don't have the idea that one can only worship him/her/it in one way. Consider the Sufis, for example. Now, nominally, they're Muslims, and Islam is often at least as bad as Christianity in this regard, but they're an exception. They see God as unknowable, and hence all human ideas about Him -- including religious doctrines -- as no more than glimpses through a fog. Hence, it's the height of arrogance for any one religion, e.g. Islam (or Christianity) to claim to have the One True Way. Someone else's glimpse through the fog may well be as god as yours -- certainly yours isn't real knowledge!

Belief in God does not, in short, imply belief that only one religion is true.

And if there is a belief in God, you can freely choose to follow whatever religion you wish.

Of course you can, and in the belief-system of traditional Christianity, if you choose any other religion, God will torture you forever and ever.

I'm not talking about practical reality, given legally-enforced religious liberty as we have in this country. I'm talking about the beliefs of traditional Christians, which insist that there is only one true religion and that all other religions are damned -- and moreover, whenever Christians have held political power and not been restrained by something like our First Amendment, believers in other religions have tended to suffer civil penalties, too, up to and including execution. (The worst treatment was always reserved for one type of Christian against others, though.)

You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by 'narrow

I've explained it in detail. You have no excuse for pretending not to understand.

If you don't believe what the Bible teaches to begin with, then you don't believe that you'll go to hell, so that's a moot point.

No, I don''t, but all that means is that the attempted coercion doesn't work in my case, since there's no secular authority to back it up with. I'm like the guy who, confronted with an armed robber, says, "wait a minute, that's a toy gun!" Doesn't change the intent, though.

How does that affect a Christian's freedom in any way?

Well, in many denominations, the definition of "Christian" is fairly narrow. I know many Christians who don't believe ANY of the things I presented above, yet still consider themselves Christian. In a discussion between that sort of Christian and the more traditional sort, one often finds the latter saying, "You're not really a Christian," or in general using the term "Christian" to refer only to those who have those coercive and anti-freedom beliefs. The coercive threat of Hell is used to prevent Christians from adopting more liberal religious ideas. I'm not saying it works one hundred percent of the time. Slaves have been known to escape.

I don't care what religion you practice, I completely believe that you can practice any religion you want or none. It's your choice, not mine.

You say this because you are an American, and that is our secular Holy Writ, but it conflicts sharply with your religious beliefs. As does the First Amendment. To put it simply, you believe that God demands things that you, yourself, are not allowed to.

You don't understand the concepts in Christianity, that's very clear from the remarks that you've made.

So what of the list that I presented is not factually true? I may make different value judgments about those beliefs than you would, but if what I said is what Christians believe, the fact that you think you can make excuses for it doesn't change things.

 

[koshergrl]

Lol.

 

[Dragon]

And if you do have the knowledge and intelligence then you certainly haven't demonstrated it here

That isn't yours to judge. I'm addressing others here, actually. They can decide.

 

[Dragon]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

 

[Montrovant]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

 

[koshergrl]

You had already posted remarks to posts I had made after the posts I'm referring too.

Then you knew that I had already answered you, and were being disingenuous. Refusing to play your game is not refusing to respond to your arguments. It's just refusing to play your game.

Is it your paganism that makes you so vile, or do you take credit for that all on your own?

It's being free. Slaves like yourself, taking the viewpoint of your masters, always think that free people are evil. But whether denying the master's will is evil (unlike reasoning and evidence) really does depend on perspective.

I don't think you're evil, I think you're arrogant without having the intelligence or knowledge to back it up.

Who is our "master"?

It's only fair to share...we already know who you work for.

 

[koshergrl]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

I didn't say it was a good choice!

A slave will be forced to do things they don't want to. A slave will not be allowed to do whatever they wish, they will be stopped from doing things the slave master doesn't want.

In Christianity, (again by my understanding) no one is stopped from doing anything. If you disbelieve, if you sin, god doesn't levy some punishment and then you continue.

Like I said, the idea of eternal punishment is incompatible with the idea of a loving, merciful god IMO. I'm completely on board with that argument.

Think of it this way...a loving parent must exert discipline, and protect his or her children from evil people and influences. That means there are times when you have to punish a child, and it also means there are some people you must put away from you.

Add to that the fact that God is also completely righteous and can tolerate no sin and it becomes clear why there has to be punishment, and eternal punishment. Humans are sinful, and the only way to remove our sin and make us worthy of the presence of God is via Christ's blood. It's about the easiest way imaginable to make sure you will spend eternity in heaven, you just have to believe or ask to be saved (you don't even have to be convinced, conviction can come later) and you can write off the chance of spending eternity in hell.

 

[uscitizen]

Dragon, I think you are mistaking consequences for lack of freedom. As I understand it, in Christianity everyone has the freedom to believe what they will, there are just consequences for those beliefs.

If a slave disobeys a master, there are "consequences" of that as well. "You can believe whatever you want, but if you believe anything different from this, I will torture you forever and ever," is as tyrannical a statement as has ever been uttered.

But god loves you is why he will torture you forever!

 

[koshergrl]

If you expect to spend eternity in God's care, the very least you can do is show a modicom of respect.

If you don't He's not going to subject the rest of us to your idiocy.