A Flat Tax: Please help me understand how it is unfair to have a flat tax!

[DiamondDave]

So what if some low income household is getting $300 a month in food stamps? You want to raise their taxes? Why not just take away their food stamps? Wouldn't that be more efficient and achieve the same effect?

Blind equal stake in the game...

Oh... and eliminate their food stamps.. they can work like anyone else... reducing the need for govt expenditure and reducing the level of a needed tax rate to support govt

Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

You see me flying a flag of 'fairness'?? Nope

That is you, kimosabe

 

[Navy1960]

In contrast, federal and state taxes on gasoline production and imports have been climbing steadily since the late 1970s and now total roughly $58.4 billion. Due in part to substantial hikes in the federal gasoline excise tax in 1983, 1990, and 1993, annual tax revenues have continued to grow. Since 1977, governments collected more than $1.34 trillion, after adjusting for inflation, in gasoline tax revenues—more than twice the amount of domestic profits earned by major U.S. oil companies during the same period.
The Tax Foundation - State and Federal Treasuries "Profit" More from Gasoline Sales than U.S. Oil Industry

This notion that the bottom 47% pay nothing is wrong, what they don't do is pay Federal " Income Taxes" , however that does not mean the bottom 47% do not contribute to the Federal tax structure in terms of Federal taxes paid for such things as fuel, household items subject to Federal taxes, travel taxes etc. There are a number of taxes the Federal Govt. levies that are passed to the consumer that are paid by that bottom 47% into the Federal coffers. So again this nation they contribute nothing is wrong. Yes it's true, that in terms of "income taxes" alone the top wage earners pay a majority of the income taxes in this nation, however what is not true is the poor pay nothing.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.

Who cares what it was caused by... who it was caused by.. or who along the way made it to one level or another???

What I care is getting rid of it and the smokescreen that has been used against us for wayyyyyy too long...

And don't go acting like DEMs have had nothing to do with the uneven playing field of taxation as well....

You advocate policies and plans that are never going to happen. Ever. Period. That's fine, that's your right,

but do you at least acknowledge the absolute indisputable truth of that? Never, ever.

 

[auditor0007]

The title says it all.

I think a flat tax on all americans is the only truly fair tax structure.

For all examples please use a 10% tax rate, I know its not realistic and would have to be higher but just for math purposes in any pro/anti flat tax examples lets use the easy number.


To me a person making $10,000/year paying $1,000 in taxes while a guy making $10,000,000/year paying $1,000,000 in taxes is fair.

I'm not sure how, under our current system at the end of the year, someone making $50,000/year being responsible for ~$12,500 in federal income tax while someone making $25,000/year is responsible to pay ~$3750 in federal income tax. After deductions its more like $8,000 and $0.00 which still doesn't sound fair to me.


So....now that my opinion is here please try to explain to me or convince me how a flat tax is less fair overall than our current tax system.

In your example, the a single person with no dependents making $50,000 would pay approximately $12,000 including payroll taxes. It works out to just under 21% of total income including the employers share of payroll taxes. This also includes taking $6000 off of the person's taxable income for an IRA deduction, which is half of what is permitted. Now, the person making $25,000, being single with no dependents, would pay $5350 including the employers share of payroll taxes, which works out to be approximately 18.5% of total income including the employers share of payroll taxes. I did not give the person earning $25,000 the $6000 deduction for an IRA contribution because at that low of earnings I'm not sure that anyone could afford to take that out of their income. If they could somehow afford it, then it would reduce their taxes by another $825, leaving them with a tax burden of $4525, or a little over 15.5% of total income.

 

[pgm]

all of our income can NOT be income taxed....it is against the law, as the law is writen now.

if you do not give people exemptions or a standard deduction on necessities, gvt income taxing is illegal.

I'm not saying we should eliminate all deductions. I'm saying that having deductions plays favorites. Therefore, a flat tax is not completely even.

 

[uscitizen]

This entire thread is just based on vaporware since none of the candidates tax proposals will go beyoun the wishful thinking stage.

 

[auditor0007]

why should we rescind state taxes? This is about federal tax.
And yes other federal taxes could and should be dropped if we have a pure flat federal tax in place as the ONLY tax system for the feds.

State taxes cannot be rescinded. I just stated that they should be made flat also. In all but a couple of states, the highest income earners pay the least percentage of income in state taxes while the lowest income earners pay the most. In some states such as Texas, lower income earners pay four times more in state taxes, as a percentage of income, than the highest income earners.

If we want true fairness then lets not just talk about federal income taxes. The only reason everyone has their shorts in a bundle over federal income taxes is because this is where the right wing media has focused all the attention. Let's start focusing some attention on the complete unfairness of state taxes where the lowest income earners are paying the most and the highest income earners are paying the least. It really is a nice scam they have going on.

 

[auditor0007]

So what if some low income household is getting $300 a month in food stamps? You want to raise their taxes? Why not just take away their food stamps? Wouldn't that be more efficient and achieve the same effect?

Blind equal stake in the game...

Oh... and eliminate their food stamps.. they can work like anyone else... reducing the need for govt expenditure and reducing the level of a needed tax rate to support govt

Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

They want a tax system like those at the state level where the lowest income earners pay the most and the highest income earners pay the least. If Dems would do a better job of demonstrating this little known fact, a lot of this talk about the rich being overtaxed would come to an end.

 

[auditor0007]

Conservatives believe that one of the root causes of all our economic ills is that the poor are undertaxed and the rich are overtaxed.

It's amazing really.

Pretty soon they'll be calling for the extermination of all non-contributors.

 

[auditor0007]

That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.

Damn, another truth.

 

[DiamondDave]

That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.

Who cares what it was caused by... who it was caused by.. or who along the way made it to one level or another???

What I care is getting rid of it and the smokescreen that has been used against us for wayyyyyy too long...

And don't go acting like DEMs have had nothing to do with the uneven playing field of taxation as well....

You advocate policies and plans that are never going to happen. Ever. Period. That's fine, that's your right,

but do you at least acknowledge the absolute indisputable truth of that? Never, ever.

Fight the good fight... even if others tell you it is hopeless... I did not just lay down and wait for the bullet in the brain on the battlefield... just because the propaganda of Baghdad Bob told me to.... I continued to fight against those that were wrong then, just as I fight against those like you who are wrong now

 

[DiamondDave]

Oh... and you and those arguing with you can now stop this whole equal treatment in progressive systems bullshit, since I have broken it down again....

I have no problem with you supporting your inequality based system (even if I whole heartedly disagree and will fight against it til the day I die).... just don't shit on an ice cream cone and tell me it's double chocolate chunk

 

[auditor0007]

OK.. 2 can play that game...

Progressive tax only means support of equal treatment when it benefits you and unequal treatment of others when it benefits you... it supports something for you at the expense of others... it means having no stake in the game with the ability to vote for continuing to receive benefits for having no stake in the game

And again, you ******* MORON.... it is not about FAIR.. FAIR is SUBJECTIVE and BASED ON PERCEPTION... it is about EQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW....

Do you have to act like that?

Again, Equal is also up for discussion. Because everyones 20,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way while everyones 1,000,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way. That seems pretty equal to me. But obviously not to you.

No... equal treatment is equal treatment... your attempt to put a subjective situation into means nothing..

Shifting the playing field does not make it equal.... your subjective and arbitrary use of levels makes it so that even though all dollars are earned, not all earnings are equal in terms of taxation... everyone who earns earns dollar 1.. yet not everyone's dollar 1 is truly treated the same in a progressive situation..

You stick dollar 1 in your wallet and leave it there... you stick dollar 100k in your wallet and leave it there.. come back later and can you tell which is which?? Which was taxed and which was not?? Why is it different?? And why does it mean more or less to you that the dollar in the whino's wallet???

I will break it down again.... because it shows the inequality of progressive systems

Person A making 18K
Person B making 30K
Person C making 100K
Person D making 1MIL

In a floor system of 20K paying untaxed... and a 10% flat tax on all above there for argument's sake...
Person A pays ZERO% in income tax, yet receives the services of the courts, laws, national defense, etc... and probably receives entitlements from government that others do not...
Person B pays 1K in taxes of 3.33% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 29K left over... maybe receives and entitlement or extra benefit from the government, maybe not
Person C pays 8K in taxes or 8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 79K left over.. most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit
Person D pays 98K in taxes or 9.8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 999K left over... most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit

Even in a progressive system like we have currently... it is not about each individual dollar... it comes down to a subjective set of levels for totals for 365 days... it is about the total, not the little increments that get you to that total... it is a smokescreen by government to say one thing, and have it be something else... and it is the same game you play and all of those like you who support unequal treatment play... don't look at the man behind the curtain, look at the message you want to put up for show... don't look at the reality, look at the myth projection

This is not equal treatment in any way, shape or form... it is subjective treatment based on subjective situational bullshit... it is not blind... it is in the spotlight with people shifting the spotlight for power and benefit.. it is how government keeps people battling in it's power grab...

Dave, you are one of those who gets so caught up in all the rhetoric over those who don't pay federal income taxes, yet you ignore all other taxes. You want everything to be fair when it comes to federal income taxes, but you don't have a problem with the unfairness of state taxes.

Here is a link that details approximately how much every group pays in total taxes, based on their earnings. In the end, it is quite equitable. While the poor pay zero or next to zero in federal and state income taxes, they pay an enormous amount in all other types of taxes, which in the end balances out for the federal taxes they do not pay.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

 

[DiamondDave]

Do you have to act like that?

Again, Equal is also up for discussion. Because everyones 20,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way while everyones 1,000,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way. That seems pretty equal to me. But obviously not to you.

No... equal treatment is equal treatment... your attempt to put a subjective situation into means nothing..

Shifting the playing field does not make it equal.... your subjective and arbitrary use of levels makes it so that even though all dollars are earned, not all earnings are equal in terms of taxation... everyone who earns earns dollar 1.. yet not everyone's dollar 1 is truly treated the same in a progressive situation..

You stick dollar 1 in your wallet and leave it there... you stick dollar 100k in your wallet and leave it there.. come back later and can you tell which is which?? Which was taxed and which was not?? Why is it different?? And why does it mean more or less to you that the dollar in the whino's wallet???

I will break it down again.... because it shows the inequality of progressive systems

Person A making 18K
Person B making 30K
Person C making 100K
Person D making 1MIL

In a floor system of 20K paying untaxed... and a 10% flat tax on all above there for argument's sake...
Person A pays ZERO% in income tax, yet receives the services of the courts, laws, national defense, etc... and probably receives entitlements from government that others do not...
Person B pays 1K in taxes of 3.33% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 29K left over... maybe receives and entitlement or extra benefit from the government, maybe not
Person C pays 8K in taxes or 8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 79K left over.. most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit
Person D pays 98K in taxes or 9.8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 999K left over... most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit

Even in a progressive system like we have currently... it is not about each individual dollar... it comes down to a subjective set of levels for totals for 365 days... it is about the total, not the little increments that get you to that total... it is a smokescreen by government to say one thing, and have it be something else... and it is the same game you play and all of those like you who support unequal treatment play... don't look at the man behind the curtain, look at the message you want to put up for show... don't look at the reality, look at the myth projection

This is not equal treatment in any way, shape or form... it is subjective treatment based on subjective situational bullshit... it is not blind... it is in the spotlight with people shifting the spotlight for power and benefit.. it is how government keeps people battling in it's power grab...

Dave, you are one of those who gets so caught up in all the rhetoric over those who don't pay federal income taxes, yet you ignore all other taxes. You want everything to be fair when it comes to federal income taxes, but you don't have a problem with the unfairness of state taxes.

Here is a link that details approximately how much every group pays in total taxes, based on their earnings. In the end, it is quite equitable. While the poor pay zero or next to zero in federal and state income taxes, they pay an enormous amount in all other types of taxes, which in the end balances out for the federal taxes they do not pay.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

And you think others don't pay things like gas tax, property tax, state tax, sales tax, etc too?? Even more 'enormous' amounts...

Again.. an argument in 'fairness'... sorry Charlie.. that don't float with me...

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

our gvt can not tax all earnings as it stands now....

our gvt taxes, taxable income, not anyone's full income, just as our gvt taxes businesses on their profit, not their entire income.

this is why there is a standard deduction and personal exemption....the gvt can NOT tax you on necessities it can only tax you on your perceived profits.

someone making 10k being taxed $1000 bucks is taking food out of his mouth or a roof over their head.

I agree with a flat tax, but only if there is a personal deduction for everyone, where their immediate needs are not taxed.....

Taking $1000 from a guy making 10,000 a year is taxing the money he needs to survive with any semblance of a decent way of life. Fairness, as it relates to taxes, can also be applied to the principle that it is unfair to tax a person's income that is to be used for one's basic needs the same as you would tax a person's income that is well beyond need.

So both of you are basically saying that at lower income levels the taxes are actually going to take away from money for basic needs while at higher income levels the taxes would not take from money the people need to survive, making a flat tax unfair. Correct?

Would either of you be able to support a flat tax that say taxed all income over $20,000 at XX percent and all income under $20,000 at zero percent. Basically a flat tax that doesn't start taxing income until some basic level of income is reached.

I agree that it is more hardship inducing to tax a person making barely enough to survie, i do agree with that completely and that it sucks and causes a real measureable hurt on their standard of living.


I still don't see it as being fair to exempt a certain class of people from taxes based on income. However, I do understand the difference in impact a XX% tax would have on someone making at or below the poverty line vs the same XX%'s impact on a person making $1,000,000. The impact would cause more hardship for the poor person than the rich person. With this knowledge I still don't find it unfair to charge everyone the same, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be willing to look into what I suggested 2 paragraphs above.

yes, i already said, i could support a flat tax, if there was an exemption for the first "X" amount made, along with including all money earned, including capital gains etc.....on being taxed.

but i also would like to see the elimination of the social security/medicare tax, and put it in to the flat tax amount. One tax, for everyone and everything....

eliminate the gas tax and cigarette taxes and excise taxes too.....

one big ole flat tax for all that the gvt spends.

You can be my VP or vise-versa and maybe a sane conservative and sane liberal could fix things

That is my way of saying I really really really really like what you just posted!

 

[DiamondDave]

I would exempt the first $30, 000.00 and have from there upward be taxed at a flat rate, including capital gains.

The $30, 000.00 exemption would, though, include a Millionnaire's first $30k as well.

And as you might be able to see... I have broken it down to show the inequity in that scenario as well... it is just another name for the same progressive bullshit

 

[Annie]

Do you have to act like that?

Again, Equal is also up for discussion. Because everyones 20,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way while everyones 1,000,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way. That seems pretty equal to me. But obviously not to you.

No... equal treatment is equal treatment... your attempt to put a subjective situation into means nothing..

Shifting the playing field does not make it equal.... your subjective and arbitrary use of levels makes it so that even though all dollars are earned, not all earnings are equal in terms of taxation... everyone who earns earns dollar 1.. yet not everyone's dollar 1 is truly treated the same in a progressive situation..

You stick dollar 1 in your wallet and leave it there... you stick dollar 100k in your wallet and leave it there.. come back later and can you tell which is which?? Which was taxed and which was not?? Why is it different?? And why does it mean more or less to you that the dollar in the whino's wallet???

I will break it down again.... because it shows the inequality of progressive systems

Person A making 18K
Person B making 30K
Person C making 100K
Person D making 1MIL

In a floor system of 20K paying untaxed... and a 10% flat tax on all above there for argument's sake...
Person A pays ZERO% in income tax, yet receives the services of the courts, laws, national defense, etc... and probably receives entitlements from government that others do not...
Person B pays 1K in taxes of 3.33% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 29K left over... maybe receives and entitlement or extra benefit from the government, maybe not
Person C pays 8K in taxes or 8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 79K left over.. most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit
Person D pays 98K in taxes or 9.8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 999K left over... most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit

Even in a progressive system like we have currently... it is not about each individual dollar... it comes down to a subjective set of levels for totals for 365 days... it is about the total, not the little increments that get you to that total... it is a smokescreen by government to say one thing, and have it be something else... and it is the same game you play and all of those like you who support unequal treatment play... don't look at the man behind the curtain, look at the message you want to put up for show... don't look at the reality, look at the myth projection

This is not equal treatment in any way, shape or form... it is subjective treatment based on subjective situational bullshit... it is not blind... it is in the spotlight with people shifting the spotlight for power and benefit.. it is how government keeps people battling in it's power grab...

Dave, you are one of those who gets so caught up in all the rhetoric over those who don't pay federal income taxes, yet you ignore all other taxes. You want everything to be fair when it comes to federal income taxes, but you don't have a problem with the unfairness of state taxes.

Here is a link that details approximately how much every group pays in total taxes, based on their earnings. In the end, it is quite equitable. While the poor pay zero or next to zero in federal and state income taxes, they pay an enormous amount in all other types of taxes, which in the end balances out for the federal taxes they do not pay.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

In IL, like many states, the tax system is unfair and beyond burdensome for lower middle and the poor. Sales taxes, service taxes, property taxes, personal income taxes, gasoline taxes, etc. There's little that isn't taxed.

However, you are mixing the levels of government. In the case of a flat tax, the current discussion is at federal level. The reform of state, county, municipal reform must also come from the people.

Indeed, if a flat tax was accepted on the federal level, the push would be on the lower levels next.

I'm certainly towards the bottom of income earners, but would support a flat tax with some sort of per person 'tax free' amount, perhaps 15k per head. Thus a family of 4 would not pay taxes on the first 60k of income. After that, perhaps a 22-23% flat tax on all above that. No other deductions, as obviously each child is a 15k deduction from the get go. We all have to pay housing costs, so fine. Those at the lower end, single, would have the $15k tax free for necessities, which certainly accounts for all their income.

Perhaps there would have to be some sliding scale in the percentage as # of persons in family rises, perhaps the number to begin with would need to be higher or lower. However, once that problem was addressed, that taxes wouldn't cause folks to be unable to eat, clothe, house themselves, a flat tax seems the most fair.

 

[francoHFW]

The rich take the flat tax, don't even need an accountant. The poor/middle opt for the old method AND have to pay an accountant. Brilliant- for the rich. This is just more Pub pie inthe sky anyway- to make the dupes forget they get screwed by the Pubs EVERY TIME. Pffffft!!