Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[john54]

What is your point? I get that you are dismissive of the Bible and in your own mind you decided to classify it as "fantasy". None of the accounts fit that category. I already enumerated the various forms of literature that are used in the Bible. I understand that some even take all words literally. While I don't agree with that, I agree with it more than I agree with you, because those who see it as literal descriptions at least get the point of the story! You are not even that far yet.

There are plenty of other books, plenty of other information that is available about the billion year history of the earth. Complaining that this is not in the Bible is like complaining a math books doesn't have any chocolate chip cookie recipes.

Are you also miffed that the Bible doesn't explain calculus and trigonometry, let alone the grammar of the pre-Columbian languages in South America?

My concern is that you're not understanding the message behind the Bible, that these are stories to grow out of, and not stories to stunt your intellectual and spiritual growth with. They're stories to enthrall your children with, but not stories for adults to get lost in themselves. As said in Mark:

Anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.
Mark 10:15

or Matthew:
Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:1-3

And Isaiah
All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children.
Isaiah 54:13

And Paul
When I became a man, I gave up childish things.
Corinthians 13:11

The bible's stories are meant to be enjoyed as a child, and taught to children as adults, but given up, as Paul gave up childish things, as one enters into adulthood. The confusion lies in this misunderstanding.

I won't claim to know what it's like to still believe the magic and hold onto that spark from childhood, like sealing an enchanting glowworm in a bottle to light your way through life - but the glow worm was meant to be let go, not kept, where it's spark goes out and has unfortunately passed for lack of the air and nutrients of the real world...Consider that even though the magic was never real, you believed it was, and maybe savor that feeling, recognize that you in fact made it on your own, without anyone lighting the way for you and some day perhaps your children or grandchildren will similarly let the glow worm go, and trade it's glow for the real light of day.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well maybe Paul didn't enter the figurative kingdom of heaven then, because he put those childish things away, since as Jesus says you have to become like a child to enter the fabled kingdom of heaven. I'm wondering if you're maybe missing the allegory here in a story that's clearly meant for children, really to the point that the character of Jesus even spells it out.

Consider the common theme of children's fantasy where once you grow up you lose access to the magic of youth - think Peter Pan, Kris Kringle, stories involving the "fairies' wood" which only children can enter. As these benevolent and mystical forces protect and delight children, they are no place for adults to tread. It's allegory, for growing up, and that seems clearly to be the message of Christianity and the tales of the Bible - rich and fantastical, cherished stories meant to delight and raise kids' imaginations up, with protectors like Jesus, God, angels, and with timeless symbols of bad-doers like the great villain in the form of the sinister satan, the sneaky snake, the scary demons - it's like a swirling world of surprises and enchantments, meant to impart lessons to children as well as entertain and bring them joy. But eventually the children become adults, and as the character Jesus says, they can not enter the kingdom because the time has come to mature, and move on from the stories of childhood to face the world of adulthood.

Your argument just doesn't hold up on the face of it and you obviously can't defend it so just keep repeating it. That's cool. Some can't believe anything other than what they believe and that's their constitutional right in America. I believe my argument is on very solid ground, however, so I will agree to disagree and move on. I do wish you the very best.

 

[john54]

Your argument just doesn't hold up on the face of it and you obviously can't defend it so just keep repeating it. That's cool. Some can't believe anything other than what they believe and that's their constitutional right in America. I believe my argument is on very solid ground, however, so I will agree to disagree and move on. I do wish you the very best.

I wish you the best of luck on your journey.

 

[Meriweather]

The bible's stories are meant to be enjoyed as a child, and taught to children as adults, but given up, as paul gave up childish things, as one enters into adulthood.

According to whom? Scholarly rabbis certainly disagree with this. They note something on the order of scripture having the shallows for children and the depths for adults; that scripture is to be studied, not read.

How much adult Bible study have you done? How many scholarly rabbinical commentaries have you read?

Why do I get the feeling you believe yourself too smart for any of that--a quick scan of the Bible is all you need to declare it fantasy and intended for children.

 

[Meriweather]

Anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.
Mark 10:15

or Matthew:
Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:1-3

And Isaiah
All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children.
Isaiah 54:13

And Paul
When I became a man, I gave up childish things.
Corinthians 13:11

This is hilarious. I see you can cherry pick verses you think make your point. You haven't a clue about the real points do you? Nor, probably, the interest.

 

[Meriweather]

I won't claim to know what it's like to still believe the magic and hold onto that spark from childhood, like sealing an enchanting glowworm in a bottle to light your way through life - but the glow worm was meant to be let go, not kept, where it's spark goes out and has unfortunately passed for lack of the air and nutrients of the real world...Consider that even though the magic was never real, you believed it was, and maybe savor that feeling, recognize that you in fact made it on your own, without anyone lighting the way for you and some day perhaps your children or grandchildren will similarly let the glow worm go, and trade it's glow for the real light of day.

Do you really believe that by claiming the reality is magic, it is going to change the reality? Trust me, you do not even have a child's understanding of the Bible.

Fair or not, I classify you as a settler, not an explorer or a pioneer. You are content with dismissing God as fantasy--no need or reason to explore further. Nothing wrong with being content with what you have, but it isn't wise to tell the explorer there is nothing out there. Had you lived in an earlier time, you certainly wouldn't have joined the Christopher Columbus' crew.

The fact that you say "real light of day" says a lot. There is greater light. For explorers.

 

[john54]

According to whom? Scholarly rabbis certainly disagree with this. They note something on the order of scripture having the shallows for children and the depths for adults; that scripture is to be studied, not read.

How much adult Bible study have you done? How many scholarly rabbinical commentaries have you read?

Why do I get the feeling you believe yourself too smart for any of that--a quick scan of the Bible is all you need to declare it fantasy and intended for children.

Is it -stated- anywhere in Santa Klaus lore that Santa is only 'real' for children? Are there verses in Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer saying, "This is just for kids. Santa is a myth."

No. Of course not. What would that do to kids? It would be awful. But are there *wink wink* moments for the adults watching the show, or the commercials, or reading the stories? Subtle little jokes only adults will get? Of course there are.

Take when Mary "saw Jesus standing there and yet she did not know that it was Jesus." No, she thought "that he was the gardener." Budumbum. (John 20:15)

Will kids pick up? No, but adults will smile at each other at this millenia-old gag's retelling and at the gardener "Jesus" playing a little prank on Mary.

Or take John 6:60, after Jesus had urged the Jews to eat his flesh and drink his blood, when his disciples say, likely nauseated, "This statement is very unpleasant. Who can listen to it?" I imagine some parents reading this part have to restrain a snort at the gaggery.

Or we can take Jesus's frequent hobby of popping up, telling superstitious and easily-angered Jews that he was God, and then bolting away as they furiously tried to kill him, only to repeat these eye-roll antics again and again throughout his adventures (John 6:15, John 8:59, Luke 4:30 and more). Kids might not notice the pattern but parents know a prankster when they see one.

There are many other examples both from Jesus's adventures and during the recounting of God's sorcery, and of course throughout genesis's creation myth. Really, it's everywhere but the Bible isn't just going to flat out spoil the story for kids. That would kind of ruin the point. If adults want to take a kids' novel seriously I mean that's increasingly normalized with anime Fandom and such these days, but just because the characters in a kid's novel don't break character doesn't mean it's meant to be taken seriously by adults is my point.

 

[john54]

Do you really believe that by claiming the reality is magic, it is going to change the reality? Trust me, you do not even have a child's understanding of the Bible.

Fair or not, I classify you as a settler, not an explorer or a pioneer. You are content with dismissing God as fantasy--no need or reason to explore further. Nothing wrong with being content with what you have, but it isn't wise to tell the explorer there is nothing out there. Had you lived in an earlier time, you certainly wouldn't have joined the Christopher Columbus' crew.

The fact that you say "real light of day" says a lot. There is greater light. For explorers.

Joining the kids on their adventure and exploring with them is fun play, and a part of us adults seek that return to childhood, and that's normal. But when we're still up playing after the kids have gone to sleep, explorer's on Noah's ark, or walking on water with Jesus, up late every night playing for ourselves, playing for our children, often hands clasped, deep in player, playing for everyone, we may have taken the adventures and playing a touch too far...

 

[Meriweather]

Is it -stated- anywhere in Santa Klaus lore that Santa is only 'real' for children? Are there verses in Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer saying, "This is just for kids. Santa is a myth."

No. Of course not. What would that do to kids? It would be awful. But are there *wink wink* moments for the adults watching the show, or the commercials, or reading the stories? Subtle little jokes only adults will get? Of course there are.

I don't think you realize you sound like a child with their first counting book trying to explain calculus and abstract algebra to a math major.

 

[Meriweather]

Take when Mary "saw Jesus standing there and yet she did not know that it was Jesus." No, she thought "that he was the gardener." Budumbum. (John 20:15)

Yes. Someone who has gone through a crucifixion is going to look exactly like their pre-crucified self, not to mention a man wearing the tradition headdress of the time was never mistaken for someone else. That was unheard of.

 

[Meriweather]

Or take John 6:60, after Jesus had urged the Jews to eat his flesh and drink his blood, when his disciples say, likely nauseated, "This statement is very unpleasant. Who can listen to it?" I imagine some parents reading this part have to restrain a snort at the gaggery.

Or, knowledgeable parents will simply explain the age-old wisdom of the time of everything in this world being the shadow of another living reality. This wisdom dates back to at least Plato's time. Or, more simply, "The visible sign of an invisible reality." This is beyond the ken, of those who believe reality describes something physical.

 

[john54]

Yes. Someone who has gone through a crucifixion is going to look exactly like their pre-crucified self, not to mention a man wearing the tradition headdress of the time was never mistaken for someone else. That was unheard of.

Well apparently the process of resurrection made him look exactly like the gardener and I suspect this jest was repeated in the other cases of disciples not recognizing their zombified hero, either by the same gardener or maybe other friends who were in on the gag and wanted to dress up as jesus. Clearly no one recognized him, though maybe some did with a wink - but that's a story for another time.

 

[Meriweather]

Or we can take Jesus's frequent hobby of popping up, telling superstitious and easily-angered Jews that he was God, and then bolting away as they furiously tried to kill him, only to repeat these eye-roll antics again and again throughout his adventures (John 6:15, John 8:59, Luke 4:30 and more). Kids might not notice the pattern but parents know a prankster when they see one.

There are many other examples both from Jesus's adventures and during the recounting of God's sorcery, and of course throughout genesis's creation myth. Really, it's everywhere but the Bible isn't just going to flat out spoil the story for kids. That would kind of ruin the point. If adults want to take a kids' novel seriously I mean that's increasingly normalized with anime Fandom and such these days, but just because the characters in a kid's novel don't break character doesn't mean it's meant to be taken seriously by adults is my point.

I think I get it. You only understand comic books. My sister wrote her autobiography in the form of Haikus. I loved it. I think you might enjoy writing your autobiography in comic book form. It appears that's the lens through which you view life.

 

[Meriweather]

playing for our children, often hands clasped, deep in player, playing for everyone, we may have taken the adventures and playing a touch too far...

"Playing" ?

I see you haven't a very high opinion of children, either.

 

[Meriweather]

Well apparently the process of resurrection made him look exactly like the gardener and I suspect this jest was repeated in the other cases of disciples not recognizing their zombified hero, either by the same gardener or maybe other friends who were in on the gag. Clearly no one recognized him, though maybe some did with a wink - but that's a story for another time.

You need to stop jumping to your own conclusions. They are not very well thought out. Kind of ironic, isn't it: In making fun of a book regarded as fantasy, to carelessly come up with something even more ill-conceived.

 

[john54]

Or, knowledgeable parents will simply explain the age-old wisdom of the time of everything in this world being the shadow of another living reality. This wisdom dates back to at least Plato's time. Or, more simply, "The visible sign of an invisible reality." This is beyond the ken, of those who believe reality describes something physical.

Parent as you will. But from my view, this is a very roundabout way of explaining why Jesus is asking these men to cannibalize him.

I think I get it. You only understand comic books. My sister wrote her autobiography in the form of Haikus. I loved it. I think you might enjoy writing your autobiography in comic book form. It appears that's the lens through which you view life.

Comic books are why I could understand the Bible with a once-over of the gospels. Similarly I'd expect your frequent Bible-reading would give you insights into children's comics with all of Jesus's slapstick tomfoolery and God's 'hulk smash' style of angry outbursts.

 

[john54]

You need to stop jumping to your own conclusions. They are not very well thought out. Kind of ironic, isn't it: In making fun of a book regarded as fantasy, to carelessly come up with something even more ill-conceived.

How are unique biblical interpretations anything new? Whether the storyline is taken literally or just a base for the imagination of its readers, it's all part of the same gag party Christians the world over seem to be having their fun with. The problem again is just when the childish is obsessed over and made into something dangerous to our shared reality, you know? It can lead to homophobia, sexism, murder, it even led my christian ex-girlfriend to break up with me over misplaced accusations of disrespect for her religion. I'm not at all disrespectful of Christianity- I'm simply offering a more realistic interpretation that adults are having too much fun with this storied set of tales engineered for children.

 

[Meriweather]

Parent as you will. But from my view, this is a very roundabout way of explaining why Jesus is asking these men to cannibalize him.

That's why all your babies should be bottle-fed. You would see a mother nourishing her child any other way is certainly a form of cannibalism. If you want to picture something even worse: Technically, cannibalism is the eating of dead flesh. Jesus is living. You still are not understanding the invisible reality of nourishing?

 

[Meriweather]

Comic books are why I could understand the Bible with a once-over of the gospels. Similarly I'd expect your frequent Bible-reading would give you insights into children's comics with all of Jesus's slapstick tomfoolery and God's 'hulk smash' style of angry outbursts.

You are still very much in the shallows. Try going a bit deeper.

 

[Meriweather]

it even led my christian ex-girlfriend to break up with me over misplaced accusations of disrespect for her religion. I'm not at all disrespectful of Christianity- I'm simply offering a more realistic interpretation that adults are having too much fun with this storied set of tales engineered for children.

From someone who has had an atheist grandfather, uncle, in-laws and husband: You are not only disrespectful, but incredibly disrespectful. Such disrespect cannot be hidden behind slap-stick comedy. The only saving grace is that it comes across as immature--which may be the deeper reason for the ex-girlfriend saying adieu.

Seriously, its like a not very good checker player thinking with the small skill he has in checkers, it qualifies him to not only coach a chess master, but to change the board and the rules. Hubris.