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Not a single word of that is true. Russia and Ukraine got along fine until Putin came power and began to try to control the Ukrainian government. In 1994, Russia recognized the sovereign state of Ukraine and pledged not to violate its borders. Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity constituted only 17.2% of the population and even in the Donbass were only a minority in each district, and there is no evidence ethnic Russians wanted to live under a Russian dictatorship.The Russians and Ukies have been fighting off and on since 1991. The Russians ethnicists in the four eastern oblasts want to be in Russia, and the Uki neighbors do not.
It's all true. The Russkies have committed billions of rubles in support of the rodina rat rebels in the oblasts. Yes, the rats want to live under Russian control. The Ukies say no, and I support Ukraine, always.Not a single word of that is true. Russia and Ukraine got along fine until Putin came power and began to try to control the Ukrainian government. In 1994, Russia recognized the sovereign state of Ukraine and pledged not to violate its borders. Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity constituted only 17.2% of the population and even in the Donbass were only a minority in each district, and there is no evidence ethnic Russians wanted to live under a Russian dictatorship.
So if Ukraine and Russia were already at war, then why are the Ukrainian shills always claiming the Russian invasion was “unprovoked”? Which is it? If they were already in a state of war, then Russia had every justification to invade.What a silly thread. The period known as Russia-Ukraine war started in 2014. In the early 2015 Ukraine declared Russia as an 'aggressor country'.
The ones who denied this terminology were Russian government that constantly claimed about their non-involvement.
Wiki articles about 'Russia-Ukraine war' start with the Crimean annexation. And now this thread is supposed to be some sort of revelation?
What a clown.
That agreement came with the understanding Ukraine would not seek NATO membership.Not a single word of that is true. Russia and Ukraine got along fine until Putin came power and began to try to control the Ukrainian government. In 1994, Russia recognized the sovereign state of Ukraine and pledged not to violate its borders. Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity constituted only 17.2% of the population and even in the Donbass were only a minority in each district, and there is no evidence ethnic Russians wanted to live under a Russian dictatorship.
Not a word of it is true. There was no popular uprising, no breakaway republics and no referenda. After Putin's man in Kiev, Yanukovych, left, Putin armed and trained militia in the Donbas at the same time he was invading Crimea to attack government buildings to try to wrest control of the Donbass for Russia, but they constituted only a minority of Ukrainians in the area, and when they were defeated, Putin sent Russian troops in to capture the land. The so-called referenda Russia held in the capture territory did not include the option to remain in Ukraine because if it had the people would have overwhelmingly voted to remain in Ukraine.It's all true. The Russkies have committed billions of rubles in support of the rodina rat rebels in the oblasts. Yes, the rats want to live under Russian control. The Ukies say no, and I support Ukraine, always.
That's a lie.That agreement came with the understanding Ukraine would not seek NATO membership.
After the Ukrainian insurrection in 2014, it became apparent the new government wanted to get closer to the EU and NATO. Fuck around, find out.
Zelensky´s comment is understandable, he doesn´t want to be dwarfed.Maybe. But that is pointless. Trump's bravado statement was meaningless. And Zelensky’s remark about it was the same.
Yes, all that is true. It has not even denied by the western media.Not a word of it is true. There was no popular uprising, no breakaway republics and no referenda. After Putin's man in Kiev, Yanukovych, left, Putin armed and trained militia in the Donbas at the same time he was invading Crimea to attack government buildings to try to wrest control of the Donbass for Russia, but they constituted only a minority of Ukrainians in the area, and when they were defeated, Putin sent Russian troops in to capture the land. The so-called referenda Russia held in the capture territory did not include the option to remain in Ukraine because if it had the people would have overwhelmingly voted to remain in Ukraine.
The pro Russians were only a minority in the Donbass and Russia used some of them to wage a proxy war against Ukraine, and when that failed, sent in Russian troops to capture the land and never allowed any of the people living in the captured land to have any say in their future.
You did not prove me wrong.Not a word of it is true. There was no popular uprising, no breakaway republics and no referenda. After Putin's man in Kiev, Yanukovych, left, Putin armed and trained militia in the Donbas at the same time he was invading Crimea to attack government buildings to try to wrest control of the Donbass for Russia, but they constituted only a minority of Ukrainians in the area, and when they were defeated, Putin sent Russian troops in to capture the land. The so-called referenda Russia held in the capture territory did not include the option to remain in Ukraine because if it had the people would have overwhelmingly voted to remain in Ukraine.
The pro Russians were only a minority in the Donbass and Russia used some of them to wage a proxy war against Ukraine, and when that failed, sent in Russian troops to capture the land and never allowed any of the people living in the captured land to have any say in their future.
No, not a word of it is true. In 2014, Russia did not "support" pro Russians in Ukraine, but armed and trained a small group of Ukrainians to attack government buildings in as the first stage of a proxy war against Ukraine. When these stooges failed to deliver the Donbass to Putin, he sent in Russian troops with tanks and artillery to capture the land. There is no evidence at all that the majority of residents in the territory Russia captured wanted to leave Ukraine.Yes, all that is true. It has not even denied by the western media.
Russia did not "support" the "rats", it took control of them to start a proxy war with Ukraine, and when they failed to deliver the Donbass to Putin, he pushed them aside and sent in Russian troops to capture the land.You did not prove me wrong.
"KYIV, Ukraine -- Ukraine's president promised Wednesday to introduce a bill as early as next week that would offer greater autonomy to the pro-Russian east, where separatists have been battling government troops for almost five months."No, not a word of it is true. In 2014, Russia did not "support" pro Russians in Ukraine, but armed and trained a small group of Ukrainians to attack government buildings in as the first stage of a proxy war against Ukraine. When these stooges failed to deliver the Donbass to Putin, he sent in Russian troops with tanks and artillery to capture the land. There is no evidence at all that the majority of residents in the territory Russia captured wanted to leave Ukraine.
Yes, western media has debunked Putin's propaganda about the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
War in Donbas - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
no, since Moscow attacked Ukraine in 2014The Russians and Ukies have been fighting off and on since 1991
That a reporter said "pro Russian east" does not constitute a fact about the people who lived there but merely that reporter's impression."KYIV, Ukraine -- Ukraine's president promised Wednesday to introduce a bill as early as next week that would offer greater autonomy to the pro-Russian east, where separatists have been battling government troops for almost five months."
Eastern Ukraine promised autonomy, not independence
Ukraine's president promised Wednesday to introduce a bill to parliament as early as next week that would offer greater autonomy to rebellious regions in the pro-Russia east, where separatists have been battling government troops for almost five months.www.ctvnews.ca
It is pointless to debate as long as facts don´t matter.
That a reporter said "pro Russian east" does not constitute a fact about the people who lived there but merely that reporter's impression.
If facts are important to you, read this:
A poll conducted by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) from 8–18 February 2014 assessed support for union with Russia throughout Ukraine. It found that, overall, 12% of those polled favoured union with Russia.[38] 68.0% said that Ukraine should remain independent and maintain friendly relations with Russia.
Support for a union between Russia and Ukraine was found to be much higher in certain oblasts:
Another Kyiv International Institute of Sociology poll the following April, of all of the oblasts of southern and eastern Ukraine except Crimea (which had already been annexed by Russia by that point) found majority opposition to secession from Ukraine and annexation by Russia in all of these oblasts—albeit only a slight majority in opposition to this in the Donbas (Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts).[39]
- 41.0% Crimea
- 33.2% Donetsk Oblast
- 24.1% Luhansk Oblast
- 24.0% Odesa Oblast
- 16.7% Zaporizhia Oblast
- 15.1% Kharkiv Oblast
- 13.8% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast
Opposition to secession from Ukraine and annexation by Russia (the combined percentage for the people opting for the options of "Rather, no" and "Certainly, no, I don't") had these percentages in various southern and eastern Ukrainian oblasts:[39]
In an opinion poll conducted from 14 to 26 March by the International Republican Institute, 26–27% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine viewed the Euromaidan protests as a coup d'état.[40] Only 5% of respondents in eastern Ukraine felt that Russian-speakers were 'definitely' under pressure or threat. 13% of respondents in southern Ukraine and 22% in eastern Ukraine viewed Russia's actions in Crimea as protecting Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine, with 37% and 30% viewing them as invasion and occupation.
- 51.9% Luhansk Oblast
- 52.2% Donetsk Oblast
- 65.6% Kharkiv Oblast
- 78.8% Odesa Oblast
- 81.5% Zaporizhia Oblast
- 84.1% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast
- 84.6% Kherson Oblast
- 85.4% Mykolayiv Oblast
n the poll, 22% of those in southern Ukraine, and 26% of those in eastern Ukraine, supported the idea of federalization for the country; 69% of southerners and 53% of easterners supported Ukraine remaining as a unitary state; and only 2% of southerners and 4% of easterners supported separatism.[40] 59% of those polled in eastern Ukraine would have liked to join the Russian-led customs union, while only 22% were in favour of joining the European Union. 37% of southerners preferred to join this customs union, while 29% were in favour of joining the EU. 90% of those polled in western Ukraine wanted to enter an economic union with EU, while only 4% favoured the customs union led by Russia. Among all the Ukrainians polled overall, 34% favoured joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, while 44% were against joining it. In eastern Ukraine and southern Ukraine, only 14% and 11% of the respondents respectively favour joining NATO, while 67% and 52% oppose joining it. 72% of people polled in eastern Ukraine thought that the country was going in the wrong direction, compared with only 36% in western Ukraine.[40]
A poll conducted by the Donetsk Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis analysed the identities of Donetsk inhabitants.[41] While support for separatism was low, just over a third of polled Donetsk inhabitants identified themselves as "citizens of Ukraine". More preferred "Russian-speaking residents of Ukraine" or "residents of Donbas".[41] The same poll determined that 66% of Donetsk residents that were polled supported remaining in a unified Ukraine, while 18.2% supported joining Russia, and 4.7% supported independence.[42] A second poll conducted from 26 to 29 March showed that 77% of residents condemned the takeover of administrative buildings, while 16% supported such actions. Furthermore, 40.8% of Donetsk citizens supported rallies for Ukraine's unity, while 26.5% supported pro-Russian rallies.[43]
In another research poll conducted 8–16 April by KIIS, a vast majority disapproved of the seizure of administrative buildings by protesters.[44] Over 50% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine considered acting President Oleksandr Turchynov to be illegitimate. Most of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that the disarmament and disbandment of illegal radical groups is crucial to preserving national unity. 19.1% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that Ukraine should be an independent state, 45.2% were for an independent state but with decentralization of the power to the regions, but most felt Russia and Ukraine should share open borders without visa restrictions; 8.4% were in favour of Ukraine and Russia uniting into a single state. 15.4% said they favoured secession of their region to join the Russian Federation, and 24.8% favoured Ukraine becoming a federation. Most of those polled said they found nothing attractive about Russia, but those who did, did so for economic, and not cultural reasons. Those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine were generally split on the legitimacy of the present government and parliament, but a majority in all regions agreed that deposed president Viktor Yanukovych was not the legal president of the country. In all regions but the Donbas, pro-Euromaidan oligarch Petro Poroshenko dominate dominated preliminary election polls.
You do cherry picking.That a reporter said "pro Russian east" does not constitute a fact about the people who lived there but merely that reporter's impression.
If facts are important to you, read this:
A poll conducted by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) from 8–18 February 2014 assessed support for union with Russia throughout Ukraine. It found that, overall, 12% of those polled favoured union with Russia.[38] 68.0% said that Ukraine should remain independent and maintain friendly relations with Russia.
Support for a union between Russia and Ukraine was found to be much higher in certain oblasts:
Another Kyiv International Institute of Sociology poll the following April, of all of the oblasts of southern and eastern Ukraine except Crimea (which had already been annexed by Russia by that point) found majority opposition to secession from Ukraine and annexation by Russia in all of these oblasts—albeit only a slight majority in opposition to this in the Donbas (Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts).[39]
- 41.0% Crimea
- 33.2% Donetsk Oblast
- 24.1% Luhansk Oblast
- 24.0% Odesa Oblast
- 16.7% Zaporizhia Oblast
- 15.1% Kharkiv Oblast
- 13.8% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast
Opposition to secession from Ukraine and annexation by Russia (the combined percentage for the people opting for the options of "Rather, no" and "Certainly, no, I don't") had these percentages in various southern and eastern Ukrainian oblasts:[39]
In an opinion poll conducted from 14 to 26 March by the International Republican Institute, 26–27% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine viewed the Euromaidan protests as a coup d'état.[40] Only 5% of respondents in eastern Ukraine felt that Russian-speakers were 'definitely' under pressure or threat. 13% of respondents in southern Ukraine and 22% in eastern Ukraine viewed Russia's actions in Crimea as protecting Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine, with 37% and 30% viewing them as invasion and occupation.
- 51.9% Luhansk Oblast
- 52.2% Donetsk Oblast
- 65.6% Kharkiv Oblast
- 78.8% Odesa Oblast
- 81.5% Zaporizhia Oblast
- 84.1% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast
- 84.6% Kherson Oblast
- 85.4% Mykolayiv Oblast
n the poll, 22% of those in southern Ukraine, and 26% of those in eastern Ukraine, supported the idea of federalization for the country; 69% of southerners and 53% of easterners supported Ukraine remaining as a unitary state; and only 2% of southerners and 4% of easterners supported separatism.[40] 59% of those polled in eastern Ukraine would have liked to join the Russian-led customs union, while only 22% were in favour of joining the European Union. 37% of southerners preferred to join this customs union, while 29% were in favour of joining the EU. 90% of those polled in western Ukraine wanted to enter an economic union with EU, while only 4% favoured the customs union led by Russia. Among all the Ukrainians polled overall, 34% favoured joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, while 44% were against joining it. In eastern Ukraine and southern Ukraine, only 14% and 11% of the respondents respectively favour joining NATO, while 67% and 52% oppose joining it. 72% of people polled in eastern Ukraine thought that the country was going in the wrong direction, compared with only 36% in western Ukraine.[40]
A poll conducted by the Donetsk Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis analysed the identities of Donetsk inhabitants.[41] While support for separatism was low, just over a third of polled Donetsk inhabitants identified themselves as "citizens of Ukraine". More preferred "Russian-speaking residents of Ukraine" or "residents of Donbas".[41] The same poll determined that 66% of Donetsk residents that were polled supported remaining in a unified Ukraine, while 18.2% supported joining Russia, and 4.7% supported independence.[42] A second poll conducted from 26 to 29 March showed that 77% of residents condemned the takeover of administrative buildings, while 16% supported such actions. Furthermore, 40.8% of Donetsk citizens supported rallies for Ukraine's unity, while 26.5% supported pro-Russian rallies.[43]
In another research poll conducted 8–16 April by KIIS, a vast majority disapproved of the seizure of administrative buildings by protesters.[44] Over 50% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine considered acting President Oleksandr Turchynov to be illegitimate. Most of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that the disarmament and disbandment of illegal radical groups is crucial to preserving national unity. 19.1% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that Ukraine should be an independent state, 45.2% were for an independent state but with decentralization of the power to the regions, but most felt Russia and Ukraine should share open borders without visa restrictions; 8.4% were in favour of Ukraine and Russia uniting into a single state. 15.4% said they favoured secession of their region to join the Russian Federation, and 24.8% favoured Ukraine becoming a federation. Most of those polled said they found nothing attractive about Russia, but those who did, did so for economic, and not cultural reasons. Those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine were generally split on the legitimacy of the present government and parliament, but a majority in all regions agreed that deposed president Viktor Yanukovych was not the legal president of the country. In all regions but the Donbas, pro-Euromaidan oligarch Petro Poroshenko dominate dominated preliminary election polls.
Small correction or amendment.You do cherry picking.
"While early polls in April reported that supporters of independence were a small minority, the Los Angeles Times reported that the later violence in Odessa and Mariupol turned many against the Ukrainian transitional government."
Donetsk:
"2,252,867 voted in favour of self-rule, with 256,040 against, on a turnout of nearly 75%."
Luhansk:
"The final results were that 96.2% voted for separation."
2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia
I means, when Kiev turned anti-Russian in 2014, the people were deprived of rights and they were burned to death for being Russian. No investigations took place when when Ukrainian Russians were attacked. Nazi gangs controlled the streets with baseball bats, flails and guns, the police disappeared. Of course, the east developed a desire to break away from Ukraine.
I know, read here:Small correction or amendment.
The public referendum held in Donbas and Luhansk favored in majority the unification with Russia. Putin rejected this and proposed an autonomous region. Ukraine agreed to that, promising vast autonomous rights incl. the appointment of judges and courts by the Donbas and Luhansk administration.
However Ukraine continued to send NAZI brigades into Donbas and never enacted an autonomous Donbas and Luhansk - whilst Putin countered with supplying the Donbas and Luhansk militias - additionally sending in Russian advisors and military.
The reason is/was very simple - Putin wasn't interested at all in just obtaining Donbas/Luhansk and Crimea - but to ensure that Ukraine (or the remaining Ukraine) can't become a NATO and EU member. Putin also rejects the founding of an Ukraine as an independent nation - especially not on the borders granted (artificially drawn) by the Soviet-Union. This has become irrefutably clear - when just last week Russia indicated a ceasefire proposal based on the prospect of carving up Ukraine into a "Polish Ukraine" aka Ukraine and the rest belonging to Russia with Hungarian and Belarus territorial interests involved.
IMO - Putin is envisioning the same in regards to Moldavia - and certainly towards Georgia. After that Putin or respectively Russia will concentrate on what they have and certainly will not act against existing NATO members. That Russia will make use of corruption and subversive activities is understood since NATO and EU are doing the same.
www.usmessageboard.com
I do not agree towards the statement that until Putin came - everything was fine.I know, read here:
Zelensky claims war with Russia was going during President Trump’s term.
The Russians and Ukies have been fighting off and on since 1991. The Russians ethnicists in the four eastern oblasts want to be in Russia, and the Uki neighbors do not. Not a single word of that is true. Russia and Ukraine got along fine until Putin came power and began to try to control the...
