WWIII . . . Let's Game Some Scenarios

[Mushroom]

What do you think Heroshima/Nagasaki was about?

How about hitting the main Command Post for the defense of Japan? As well as the major logistics staging location for said defense?

As well as the main shipyard in Japan. Responsible for most of their submarines, and frantically making as many 2 man suicide subs as they could prior to the surrender?

Ever heard of the IJN Musashi? Built at the Nagasaki shipyard.

Over 50 two man midget subs, in the drydock they were being held at when the bomb was dropped at Nagasaki. Yet, somehow this is not a "military target"?

Some people really do live on another planet.

 

[Thunderbird]

And what in the hell does any of that have to do with anything?

Yes, the DF-21 is a real missile, it has been in service for over 30 years now. I have no doubt they work.

But the fantasy that they can locate with a high degree of accuracy a single ship beyond the horizon, then launch a ballistic missile at it and have it hit a moving ship that is actually smaller than the CEP of said missile? That is plain silly. There is a reason why nobody else in the world has ever tried to do something like that, it is stupid. It would be like Ukraine firing an anti-tank missile straight up in the air, and somehow having it land on top of a specific tank 40 miles away on the other side of a forest and hills. With absolutely no idea exactly where it is prior to launching the missile. And only being able to guide it as it is falling. Somehow locating, targeting, and tracking the specific tank in the moments before it would hit the ground.

Yes, the missile works, not a big deal there, Germany was able to do that much back in WWII. But locate a carrier task force from over the horizon? With enough definition to identify the carrier itself? And have a ballistic missile that can somehow be "steered" onto the target that is only 75 meters across? Oh, with a CEP that is between 100-300 meters? For those that do not know, CEP is the equivalent of accuracy for a ballistic missile. And that means that 50% of missiles will hit within a 100-300 meter circle. On a target only 75 meters wide! With that kind of accuracy, even if everything works perfectly, maybe 1 in 4 would actually hit the target.

Oh, and there is this thing known as the AEGIS Combat System, that is damned good at hitting inbound ballistic missiles.

If you are going to try and debate military topics with me, you had better bring with you a lot more than just a few random pictures and a youtube video. Like, some actual facts, such as what I just gave. What you just posted has not a damned thing to do with anything I discussed. And only one is vaguely military, but it is complete BS.

You think the economic rise of China is irrelevant, insignificant? Economic might often translates into military might, don’t you think?

And consider: US falling further behind China in STEM PhDs

Quote: In 2013, the DF-21D was tested against targets equivalent to U.S. surface ships which proved to be successful.

Link: Dong Feng-21D (CSS-5) – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance.

 

[Mushroom]

Economic might often translates into military might, don’t you think?

No.

And consider: US falling further behind China in STEM PhDs

So? And exactly how many things have been created in China?
https://asiatimes.com/2021/08/us-falling-further-behind-china-in-stem-phds/

Quote: In 2013, the DF-21D was tested against targets equivalent to U.S. surface ships which proved to be successful.

It was a fixed target painted on the desert floor where the location was known before launch. We already know a ballistic missile can do that, but it was never tested in a situation like hitting a moving ship out in the ocean where the location is not known.

They are nothing alike, nothing at all.

Link: Dong Feng-21D (CSS-5) – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance.

Yes, I know all about the DF-21D. Been laughing at it since they first announced it.

 

[whitehall]

How about hitting the main Command Post for the defense of Japan? As well as the major logistics staging location for said defense?

As well as the main shipyard in Japan. Responsible for most of their submarines, and frantically making as many 2 man suicide subs as they could prior to the surrender?

Ever heard of the IJN Musashi? Built at the Nagasaki shipyard.

Over 50 two man midget subs, in the drydock they were being held at when the bomb was dropped at Nagasaki. Yet, somehow this is not a "military target"?

Some people really do live on another planet.

By July and August 1945, Japan was virtually defenseless and the U.S. was conducting daylight bombing raids with little resistance. A shipyard in Nagasaki was of little strategic importance since Japan's navy and industry was virtually destroyed. The problem for Truman was that Japan's Bushido holdouts refused to surrender "unconditionally" and the U.S. might take a lot of casualties invading the main island. Shock and awe was the solution and it worked with the biggest shock and awe in civilized history. The strategy of killing civilians is no secret. Germany's V-2 bombs were intended to cause civilian casualties in the U.K. and the U.S. fire-bombing cities like Dresden was intended to terrorize the maniacs into surrendering.

 

[HenryBHough]

Or would some player (not necessarily Putin) learn from Hitler and avoid his mistakes?

In that case.....

First move on smaller unaligned countries with the resources necessary to maintain the material level needed for war.

Second move on ONE country which is loved by about 1/2 of the rest of the world and hated by the other 1/2. Destroy it utterly but not too quickly. Fan the flames of dissent between those halves so they're not speaking to each other.

Choose one major player and nuke it to an ash pit.

Make one public statement: "Who wants to be next". Not a question, a statement.

All this supposes preparation in depth. It would take massive deception and concealment of "treaty violations" (read: "Iran-style") to get ready. And, of course, "president Xiden" - that's just not possible.

Of course America as it once was might have been capable of carrying that off - but that would require a leader who recognized that sooner or later it's going to be necessary.

Something YOU voted away less than two years ago.

 

[Mushroom]

A shipyard in Nagasaki was of little strategic importance since Japan's navy and industry was virtually destroyed.

The photo of the sub pen destroyed in the blast proves otherwise. They were still building them as fast as they could, and that was not even all of them. Just a single pen,

How can you expect to be taken seriously at all, when you blatantly ignore photographic proof?

 

[eagle1462010]

Can even one person explain to me why we have funneled billions and billions of money to Ukraine now? I'm not talking Hunter's laptop money now, just money for rebuilding or whatever. I'm sick of this.

Well they need to LAUNDER money from somewhere other than here..........We have the best politicians that money can buy.

 

[Dayton3]

I'll go first.

Under unrelenting pressure from Western media and with non-stop pictures of murdered Ukrainian children spammed all over the net, and on the back of skyrocketing inflation at home, Biden cajoles the Congress to declare war on Russia. Both sides informally agree to keep the conflict conventional. World War three has begun. To be fair, Biden and NATO could alternatively decide to go for the no-fly zone over the Ukraine, forcing Putin to declare war on the US.

The Allies: the US, NATO, India, Australia, Japan, South Korea, the EU, various South American and African nations

The New Axis: Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Mexico, Venezuela, various African and Middle Eastern nations

Front One: Europe

A given. Russia launches a mass invasion of Eastern Europe while simultaneously bombing major European capital cities. Meanwhile, in Eastern Europe NATO forward positions are overrun and driven back. The US mobilizes its major army divisions (which will take two months minimum to reach Europe) and rapid deploys the three Atlantic based Marine Expeditionary Units via the Mediterranean. Russian subs sink two of them. Several EU nations, such as Germany, France, Italy and Spain—with their capital cities in ruin—threaten to drop out of NATO if US main forces fail to reach Europe in a given period of time. Putin launches a second thrust across the Bering Sea to slow American main battle forces reaching Europe.

Front Two: The Pacific

China declares war on the US and NATO and immediately launches a two-pronged assault. Prong one: an invasion of Taiwan. Prong two: an invasion of Australia. While US forces are still in the deployment to Europe stage, China launches a third campaign moving full steam east across the Pacific capturing the Philippines, threatening Japan, and moving rapidly toward Hawaii, causing the US to split its forces between Europe and the newly opened and rapidly widening Pacific theatre.

Front Three: South Korea

North Korea declares war on both the United States and South Korea and invades the south, further slowing America's response to Europe and buying Putin even more time to gain footholds in Eastern Europe and beyond. The US must now attempt a rescue/reinforcement of its military forces stationed in South Korea, as Japan is busy dealing with Chinese forces threatening its homeland.

Front Four: Alaska/Canada

Russian forces drive deep into Alaska and split, with half driving southeast into Canada, and the other half pushing down through British Columbia, threatening the lower 48 United States. Putin knows this is a suicide mission, but he's counting on the operation further slowing America's main military forces from reaching Europe. Perhaps some Russian missile batteries make it far enough south to launch on US Western seaboard cities. Panic sweeps up and down the coast, from Washington State to California.

Front Five: Iran/Israel/Saudi Arabia

Iran declares war on Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States and pushes north through Armenia and Georgia in an attempt to link up with Russian forces in the Ukraine. Iranian forces also drive southwest across the Persian Gulf, setting up a blockade of that vital waterway, sabotaging oil tankers as it goes, invades the UAE and then Saudi Arabia in an attempt to secure Saudi oil fields for the New Axis Powers. Simultaneously, Iran also fires missiles at Israel, who threatens to go nuclear.

Front Six: India/China

China opens up yet another front by invading India, who immediately threatens nuclear retaliation.

Front Seven: Australia/China

China takes Australia in a matter of days, all the while the Australians beg for US forces to come to their rescue.

Front Eight: The Atlantic

Hundreds of US ships begin to cross the Atlantic carrying the bulk of America's main battle tanks, IFVs, artillery pieces, ammo and other war materials all bound for Europe and the fight against Russia. Russian subs sink scores of them, forcing vital US Naval assets to escort these ship convoys and to also suffer losses to Russian subs.

WWIII: the halfway point:

Russia has driven deep into central Europe and has devastated several major European cities. If American main battle forces take much longer to reach the European theater, they won't have much of a foothold or safe port to land. Meanwhile, the Middle East is ablaze with Iran's war on Saudi Arabia and Israel, and the world economy is crashing with Iran's blockade of the Persian Gulf. South Korea has nearly fallen to the North, and tens of thousands of US soldiers are trapped in southern South Korea, their backs to the sea. Taiwan and Australia have fallen. Japan is on the brink of being overrun by Chinese landing forces. Alaska has fallen, Canada is on the brink and Russian forces are striking US West Coast cities with mobile missile batteries from British Columbia. The only question? Which side will be the first to resort to tactical nuclear missiles, the gateway to a full ICBM exchange?

Wouldn't the U.S. by that point be deploying ABMs and launch facilities as fast as it could?

 

[eagle1462010]

Wouldn't the U.S. by that point be deploying ABMs and launch facilities as fast as it could?

Nuclear War.............there are no winners............the real losers survive and then later wish they were dead because of the radiation poisoning.

 

[Dayton3]

Nuclear War.............there are no winners............the real losers survive and then later wish they were dead because of the radiation poisoning.

That's an overblown myth. Enough ABMs deployed and not enough nuclear weapons will hit targets on land.

This isn't 1970 where the Soviets had literally tens of thousands of nuclear weapons.

 

[whitehall]

The photo of the sub pen destroyed in the blast proves otherwise. They were still building them as fast as they could, and that was not even all of them. Just a single pen,

How can you expect to be taken seriously at all, when you blatantly ignore photographic proof?

How in the world does the remains of a "sub-pen" destroyed in a nuclear blast, prove the claim that "they were building them as fast as they could"? American bombers were actually running out of strategic targets in late July 1945. Nagasaki sub pens would have been easy targets in conventional raids unless they were hidden and that scenario hardly justifies a nuclear attack. The Bomb could have been used to wipe out the Japanese leadership headquartered in Tokyo but Truman needed a defeated leadership to negotiate surrender terms so the shock and awe of a nuclear blast (or two) on a civilian population was just the ticket. The Military loved it and the democrat party loved it so the media loved it too.

 

[Who_Me?]

Or the more prudent approach. Whack Putin.

 

[eagle1462010]

That's an overblown myth. Enough ABMs deployed and not enough nuclear weapons will hit targets on land.

This isn't 1970 where the Soviets had literally tens of thousands of nuclear weapons.

So 5000 will not do it suddenly........lmao

 

[para bellum]

...It was a fixed target painted on the desert floor where the location was known before launch. We already know a ballistic missile can do that, but it was never tested in a situation like hitting a moving ship out in the ocean where the location is not known.

I was coming around Point Loma back around 2003, heading into Coronado Bay. Couple miles off the beach, nice sunny day. USN was out front doing exercises. The Stennis, a couple Burkes and OHP's.

I can see Point Loma out the window on my left, right at 9:00. I look at my radars- the land is off to the right and kind of in front of me- about a 2:00 position. Lol. Ships in front of me are off to the right. Fluxgate compass is saying "huh?"

I round the point and head into Coronado Bay, radars slowly rotate around back to normal....

Operating around the USN is fun.

Even if China can spot a CSF from space and cue the missile, there is the problem of mid-course updates, and targeting a CVN in a very high ECM environment, avoiding mules, etc.

Yes, that is a very different thing than hitting an aircraft carrier shaped target in the Gobi desert...

 

[Mushroom]

How in the world does the remains of a "sub-pen" destroyed in a nuclear blast, prove the claim that "they were building them as fast as they could"?

The sub pen with over 50 subs completed and ready for service. And there were were almost 100 others in various stages of construction.

But you are the one that claimed it was of "little strategic importance". All those submarines proves that was completely wrong.

 

[Dayton3]

So 5000 will not do it suddenly........lmao

Only 1300 or are available for launch

In all likelihood a good percentage of those won't work as planned.

 

[eagle1462010]

Only 1300 or are available for launch

In all likelihood a good percentage of those won't work as planned.

Still more than enough to destroy everything

 

[DudleySmith]

Front Four: Alaska/Canada

Russian forces drive deep into Alaska and split, with half driving southeast into Canada, and the other half pushing down through British Columbia, threatening the lower 48 United States. Putin knows this is a suicide mission, but he's counting on the operation further slowing America's main military forces from reaching Europe. Perhaps some Russian missile batteries make it far enough south to launch on US Western seaboard cities. Panic sweeps up and down the coast, from Washington State to California.

I would predict the Russians forces available for invading Alaska and Canada get bogged down at the tittie bar in Anchorage and surrender to the local Boy Scout troop after the bouncers beat them senseless for not paying their bar tab. They can't even scrape together enough troops to invade the Ukraine, much less the U.S.

 

[night_son]

I would predict the Russians forces available for invading Alaska and Canada get bogged down at the tittie bar in Anchorage and surrender to the local Boy Scout troop after the bouncers beat them senseless for not paying their bar tab. They can't even scrape together enough troops to invade the Ukraine, much less the U.S.

That depends on who you believe, on what sources you base your knowledge of Russian military capabilities. I myself had the opportunity to serve with Russian army counterparts at both the lowest and perhaps highest states of their post-Soviet era military effectiveness. During my time served with UN Peacekeeping forces in the mid-90's the Russian airborne reconnaissance troops we trained and deployed with weren't much better than keystone cops or the three stooges. Years later, around 2018, my US Army unit did joint operations training with Russian naval special forces. Those guys, at that time, were more high speed than most of our own equivalent forces—they had their shit together and were deadly serious professionals. Think Navy S.E.A.L.s but without the constant corny redneck grab ass.

Personally, I neither love nor hate the Russians. I see them for what they are—a fading empire, much like our own American imperium, only further down the path toward a final resting place in the mausoleum of history. The Russians will do whatever they must to compete with and survive the United States, NATO and China and remain a global power. If we or the Chinese or anyone else threaten seriously enough their ability to do those things Putin or some other Russian king will lash out most drastically; they call it Russian Roulette for good reason.

 

[Dayton3]

Still more than enough to destroy everything

Really? Not when you have to send two or more after every major target.