Would you support renewable no matter what the climate does?

[Grandma]

Coal's so much better than evil windmills.

To mine the coal (anthracite now, the bituminous is nearly gone) they completely strip a mountain of all foliage. Does wonders for the wildlife. Then they plow off the mountain layer by layer, putting the coal on trains and piling the dirt up in the valley. The disposed dirt clogs up and pollutes the waterways and runoffs, cutting off water to those downstream. So far over 1200 miles of headwaters have been lost. So far.

It takes about a year to destroy a mountain. The few that are hired into the "promised" jobs find themselves unemployed within a few years. The local towns, having been promised an economic boom, find themselves left hanging, bankrupt, with no new business coming in.

But the worst part is the coal slurry - wastewater containing coal dust, mercury, arsenic, and other heavy metals. The slurry is stored in massive reservoirs held back with earthen dams. Two of those dams have burst already, killing people and livestock and destroying property, and leaving the land it covered in an unuseable "scorched earth" condition.

The land is never replanted or otherwise reclaimed by the coal companies when they leave. They look almost like barren moonscapes, except for the equipment that's been left behind. It's cheaper to let the big old machines rot than to transport them.

 

[polarbear]

Well my friends south of here I just finished uploading this stunning documentary the township of Meredith NY put together.

Windmills The Ugly Truth - YouTube

It covers everything + then some about what kind of dirty deal and fraud this wind turbine insanity really is. I have been trying to communicate...actually not I but many many folks in Germany as well....what the well hidden dirty truth is that these power companies are hiding...and in this video You can see how they hide it.
The problem was that the video how Germany got ruined by wind & solar is in German.
The problem with this video which exposes everything even better and to boot is in English and was put together by an entire community is, that it exceeds the attention span most "global warmers" can muster because it is 1 hour and 13 minutes long. I and many others wish this upload would go viral, but as You all know it won`t. Only idiot stunts , video game cracks or porno goes viral these days.
Westwall Skookerasbill and "flak" ( I hope You don`t mind Your new nickname...its German for "Flug Abwehr Kanone", because You shoot down what needs to be shot down)...will remember when we raised these issues about flicker vertigo, low frequency noise, bird & bat kill etc we were ridiculed...well nobody in Meredith (or Germany) finds anything ridiculous about it..nor will anyone who is even just half sane and has enough attention span to watch the documentary the community of Meredith NY wants all America to see.
The upcoming Presidential election in November will ultimately decide how many more (U.S) communities will get carpet bagged like Meredith NY. I pray ( I really do) that the truth will prevail.
I also hope "Grandma" has a good enough high speed ISP so that she can see this video and show it to her family and friends before they vote in November
And as far as this "green energy" Saigon communist from Finland is concerned, well he don`t rank because it`s really none of his business what we do or don`t do in North America.
Now I`m dead tired and try catch some sleep .

 

[editec]

Would you support renewables no matter what the climate does? Yes, as I feel wind, solar and wave energy have a place and must be developed. Honestly, I feel there's a market for it and climate plays no part in my support for it.

Electric cars=
Lower imports from the middle east

Solar, wind, wave=energy we don't have to pound out of the ground. Making it easier.

Yes of course.

Even assuming that CO2 isn't creating global weirding, the pollution from internal combustion is STILL pollution.


If we can find additional energy that does not pollute then of course we ought to be developing those systems.

We have bearly begun the process of capturing energy that we can use.

Wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal energy sources are bearly being tapped right now.

We need to start getting those systems online on an industral scale.

We ought to be saving those hydrocarbons for use as material, rather than burning these precious resources.

 

[Grandma]

I watched Polarbear's video and I suggest everyone else does.

The problem isn't wind in and of itself, it's the corporate greed hitting poor communities and individuals with promises of big money, then replacing the promises with a terrible, unworkable reality.

Who the fuck needs 170 450-foot towers in their town? As the video points out, the damn things cost $3million each. But what if the residents could get grants and tax credits to put up small, individual home-sized windmills? What if the vertical windmills coud be developed?

A lot of people are very enthusiastic about using natural gas. Obviously there's no drilling near them. In the commercials they say that they go UNDER water wells. Bullshit. They go THROUGH them. The "protection" they offer is two different diameter steel pipes with concrete poured between them. Steel oxidizes. Concrete shatters in earthquakes. Earthquakes happen when the "water" shoots through. The "water" is millions and millions of gallons of what should be drinking water diverted to each well, where chemicals like toluene are added.

The same thing that happened with the wind turbines happened with the fracking, big oil and gas companies came into small, poor towns and offered up chump change for a project that will go off-peak within 3 years of production startup. The streets get ripped up with heavy equipment coming in, the water supply gets diverted to the drilling company, the earthquakes start, the pipes break, the aquifers get destroyed, and expensive houses get knocked off their foundations.

I already outlined coal.

Why do multinational corporations get to be the ones dictating what gets done? Why do we have no choice?

What can we do to stop the greedy multinationals from exploiting a good idea and turning to into a nightmare?

What will your choice of elected official do?

 

[Saigon]

Amusing. Clearly you havn't the slightest idea of hydrodynamics. Nor does the artist. Those types of blades will work in an air environment but they will not work very well at all in a water environment. Something called drag is involved. I can't remember what the loss rate is but it is over 40%.

So amusing, in fact, that almost every tidal turbine on the market looks much like the ones in the picture.

Many have horizontal blades, but the look is fairly standard now.

 

[flacaltenn]

SShhhh... -- they have to waste a lot of money and time finding out about efficient marine blade design FIRST. Then they will realize why the first REAL INSTALLATIONS are gonna look more like giant combines or pinwheels and less like props on a DC3...

Actually the top one he presented IS the design for the Hammerslog 1000 ((sp?) .. Which is in testing in Scotlan right now.. NOT WIDELY DEPLOYED as Saigon asserted. I want to see that "pitch reverse" feature work after the barnacles get a hold of it..

So You liked our clan reunion..Thanks for Your reply. But Now I have a question for You, Westwall and "Grandma". The town of Meredith (NY) has made a documentary about their windmill nightmare and sent it to Canada, presumably because the U.S. main stream (left wing) media did not want to show it on television. But it could be that some other U.S. channel which is not on my dial aired it since then and I missed it. The title of this documentary is "Windfall". Anyhow our, believe it or not LEFT-lobbed CBC Canada actually aired it today at prime time, after some e-mail bullying...but I missed it, because of our clan re-union. So I stayed up till after midnight when the CBC aired it a second time and recorded it. If that documentary has been aired in the U.S. then I won`t bother uploading it later in the wee hours of the morning to my YouTube channel, but if it has not been seen in the U.S. then I feel it is my duty to put it on my YouTube channel. It is 1 hour long but it is a desperate cry for help going out to the rest of America from this town and a few more...and if it`s on YouTube then it stays public and You guys can link to it....unlike a TV documentary which is over when it`s over.
Right now my laptop is processing the video and after that I would like a few suggestions for a title. Right now I temporarily called it "Windmills The Ugly Truth"...because I was too tired to come up with something better.
For now I`ll get some shut eye and check back in here later for suggestions...if I have to upload and if so hopefully with a better "Google-catch" title.
Good night, or what`s left of it from
Long Plain First Nations Canada

Of course Bearman -- if its not up on youtube -- please provide it.. Did I hear right that the TOWN produced this documentary??? Must have been bribed by Exxon Mobil -- no ????

 

[polarbear]

I watched Polarbear's video and I suggest everyone else does.

The problem isn't wind in and of itself, it's the corporate greed hitting poor communities and individuals with promises of big money, then replacing the promises with a terrible, unworkable reality.

Who the fuck needs 170 450-foot towers in their town? As the video points out, the damn things cost $3million each. But what if the residents could get grants and tax credits to put up small, individual home-sized windmills? What if the vertical windmills coud be developed?

A lot of people are very enthusiastic about using natural gas. Obviously there's no drilling near them. In the commercials they say that they go UNDER water wells. Bullshit. They go THROUGH them. The "protection" they offer is two different diameter steel pipes with concrete poured between them. Steel oxidizes. Concrete shatters in earthquakes. Earthquakes happen when the "water" shoots through. The "water" is millions and millions of gallons of what should be drinking water diverted to each well, where chemicals like toluene are added.

The same thing that happened with the wind turbines happened with the fracking, big oil and gas companies came into small, poor towns and offered up chump change for a project that will go off-peak within 3 years of production startup. The streets get ripped up with heavy equipment coming in, the water supply gets diverted to the drilling company, the earthquakes start, the pipes break, the aquifers get destroyed, and expensive houses get knocked off their foundations.

I already outlined coal.

Why do multinational corporations get to be the ones dictating what gets done? Why do we have no choice?

What can we do to stop the greedy multinationals from exploiting a good idea and turning to into a nightmare?

What will your choice of elected official do?

Thanks for helping out "Grandma". The $3 Million that`s only the cost to install one of these and does not include the actual price of the entire wind mill, + generator + the power lines +operating costs. The really outrageous part is the finance mechanism which has been as usual, (!!) custom tailored by Goldman Sachs. Again G.S. has positioned itself to be ( not quite yet, but almost !!!) the sole conduit for every $ for that highly lucrative business...not just in the U.S. but also in Europe. It works almost the same as the housing derivative swindle which landed the U.S. in the almost fatal financial crisis which to this date still lingers. Each and every wind mill farm can be and is completely "written off" within 4 Years and the tax breaks that Goldman Sachs and the participating hedge funds then get from the U.S. or European Government exceed by far the amount of money that was put up by "private investors"...and in the end, as usual the tax payer gets to foot the entire bill. Germans found out...my friend Stephan who sent me that nice birthday greeting video where he drives his vintage Mustang explained that to me about 5 years ago..and he made a fortune as such an investor...thank God, since then his conscience got the better of him and he + most of my (rich) neighbors who invested their $$ with him are "out".
Now he helps finance less well to do people who can`t afford the same expensive solar setups as You can see in my old neighborhood to get their own and does so at the same "LIBOR" %interest rates that only Governments pay when they borrow money.
In Canada we have besides our Federal (now "right wing") Government "Provincial" Governments , same as Yours, only we call our provincial leaders "Premiers" . Ontario was once thee richest Province in Canada and after a few terms of left wing Liberals, (same as Your democrats) it has the biggest debt of all our provinces.... The Premier Brian Mc. Guinty has done exactly what Angela Merkel did in Germany to foist these wind farms on Germans in exactly the same way what rail-roaded Meredith NY.
Finally...only just last week it became public to what extent he and his Cabinet Ministers were involved and how far their conflict of interest extended into the Provincial Government bureaucracy regarding these wind mill farms in Ontario.
He resigned in short order citing "personal, health and family" reasons,...well You know how spin doctors work.
I was one of these who uncorked a bottle of champagne when the United States proved it`s haters wrong and elected a black President...but I fear that he is in the same conflict of interest as our ex- Ontario Premier and as the ex- town supervisors of Meredith NY...not because he is a deliberate crook, but a rather naive, well meaning human being as the people in Meredith who signed these contracts were....and now are caught and trapped. About Your views on American coal,...there is nothing stopping Americans to use it the same way we are in Canada. You would be surprised how clean our coal industry is since over a decade and a half. The "fracking" I totally agree and if Obama would not stop every pipeline that comes from Canada + the new ones, not just the Keystone for oil, but also the additional ones which can bring the entire U.S. need for natural gas from Nunavut and the NWT then there would be no need for fracking.
But big $ ("high") finance, like the Rockefellers etc have almost from the beginning infiltrated each & every "Global warming" activist group and till very recently with impunity violated every foreign lobby group law we have in Canada and You guys have as well in the U.S.:

As it stands the Chinese thought they can be the laughing 3rd party and were trying to outright buy some of our Oil and Natural Gas Companies.
But a huge public outcry stopped that dead in it`s tracks. Canadians have no objections if American Companies come in here as the Chinese were trying to do, but why should You guys have to come to (neighboring) Canada to get Natural Gas & Oil with tankers, like the Chinese...??...Obama made it so by blocking the pipeline projects...!!!...And in Canada we know full well why he is doing it..!

 

[Grandma]

It's not just Goldman-Sachs. Halliburton (Cheney) owns the safety valves for oil rigs , like that one that failed inthe Gulf of Mexico, and they own parts used in fracking.

Obama isn't naive. Why do you think he was invested in all those green industries? There's a good chance they could have provided cheaper, safer, better technologies, but the big boys didn't want that...

 

[flacaltenn]

It's not just Goldman-Sachs. Halliburton (Cheney) owns the safety valves for oil rigs , like that one that failed inthe Gulf of Mexico, and they own parts used in fracking.

Obama isn't naive. Why do you think he was invested in all those green industries? There's a good chance they could have provided cheaper, safer, better technologies, but the big boys didn't want that...

Can't let ya get away with that snipe about "the big boys"... Wind and Solar are not blooming because of fundamental limitations in the technologies, NOT because some mysterious cabal is opposing them...

In fact -- if you look around you'll find that British Petrol (BP) was the LARGEST system integrator of Solar Power installations in the world. Siemens and GE have bought into renewables in huge ways.. Every fossil fuel company is HIGHLY invested in "green ventures"..

And for the record --- wind/solar does not COMPETE with Oil.. They compete in the electricity market, not the transport fuels market.. So their competition is Coal, nuclear, nat gas, hydro....

When the history gets written.. It got a fair shake..

 

[westwall]

Coal's so much better than evil windmills.

To mine the coal (anthracite now, the bituminous is nearly gone) they completely strip a mountain of all foliage. Does wonders for the wildlife. Then they plow off the mountain layer by layer, putting the coal on trains and piling the dirt up in the valley. The disposed dirt clogs up and pollutes the waterways and runoffs, cutting off water to those downstream. So far over 1200 miles of headwaters have been lost. So far.

It takes about a year to destroy a mountain. The few that are hired into the "promised" jobs find themselves unemployed within a few years. The local towns, having been promised an economic boom, find themselves left hanging, bankrupt, with no new business coming in.

But the worst part is the coal slurry - wastewater containing coal dust, mercury, arsenic, and other heavy metals. The slurry is stored in massive reservoirs held back with earthen dams. Two of those dams have burst already, killing people and livestock and destroying property, and leaving the land it covered in an unuseable "scorched earth" condition.

The land is never replanted or otherwise reclaimed by the coal companies when they leave. They look almost like barren moonscapes, except for the equipment that's been left behind. It's cheaper to let the big old machines rot than to transport them.

This is no longer true. Coal companies are REQUIRED to return the land back to BETTER than it was when they leave. There are severe penalties if they don't comply. Take a look at the Peabody operation on Black Mesa in Arizona. After the draglines are finished there is a massive replanting operation going on and has been since the 1980's.

The abandoned holes you see out east are from before the legislation requiring environmental reconstruction (something that I helped push through BTW) and were decades old by the time we got our laws passed.

Your timeline for the mining process is cute but woefully innacurate, Black Mesa has been mined since the 1960's as an example.

 

[westwall]

I watched Polarbear's video and I suggest everyone else does.

The problem isn't wind in and of itself, it's the corporate greed hitting poor communities and individuals with promises of big money, then replacing the promises with a terrible, unworkable reality.

Who the fuck needs 170 450-foot towers in their town? As the video points out, the damn things cost $3million each. But what if the residents could get grants and tax credits to put up small, individual home-sized windmills? What if the vertical windmills coud be developed?

A lot of people are very enthusiastic about using natural gas. Obviously there's no drilling near them. In the commercials they say that they go UNDER water wells. Bullshit. They go THROUGH them. The "protection" they offer is two different diameter steel pipes with concrete poured between them. Steel oxidizes. Concrete shatters in earthquakes. Earthquakes happen when the "water" shoots through. The "water" is millions and millions of gallons of what should be drinking water diverted to each well, where chemicals like toluene are added.

The same thing that happened with the wind turbines happened with the fracking, big oil and gas companies came into small, poor towns and offered up chump change for a project that will go off-peak within 3 years of production startup. The streets get ripped up with heavy equipment coming in, the water supply gets diverted to the drilling company, the earthquakes start, the pipes break, the aquifers get destroyed, and expensive houses get knocked off their foundations.

I already outlined coal.

Why do multinational corporations get to be the ones dictating what gets done? Why do we have no choice?

What can we do to stop the greedy multinationals from exploiting a good idea and turning to into a nightmare?

What will your choice of elected official do?

Thanks for helping out "Grandma". The $3 Million that`s only the cost to install one of these and does not include the actual price of the entire wind mill, + generator + the power lines +operating costs. The really outrageous part is the finance mechanism which has been as usual, (!!) custom tailored by Goldman Sachs. Again G.S. has positioned itself to be ( not quite yet, but almost !!!) the sole conduit for every $ for that highly lucrative business...not just in the U.S. but also in Europe. It works almost the same as the housing derivative swindle which landed the U.S. in the almost fatal financial crisis which to this date still lingers. Each and every wind mill farm can be and is completely "written off" within 4 Years and the tax breaks that Goldman Sachs and the participating hedge funds then get from the U.S. or European Government exceed by far the amount of money that was put up by "private investors"...and in the end, as usual the tax payer gets to foot the entire bill. Germans found out...my friend Stephan who sent me that nice birthday greeting video where he drives his vintage Mustang explained that to me about 5 years ago..and he made a fortune as such an investor...thank God, since then his conscience got the better of him and he + most of my (rich) neighbors who invested their $$ with him are "out".
Now he helps finance less well to do people who can`t afford the same expensive solar setups as You can see in my old neighborhood to get their own and does so at the same "LIBOR" %interest rates that only Governments pay when they borrow money.
In Canada we have besides our Federal (now "right wing") Government "Provincial" Governments , same as Yours, only we call our provincial leaders "Premiers" . Ontario was once thee richest Province in Canada and after a few terms of left wing Liberals, (same as Your democrats) it has the biggest debt of all our provinces.... The Premier Brian Mc. Guinty has done exactly what Angela Merkel did in Germany to foist these wind farms on Germans in exactly the same way what rail-roaded Meredith NY.
Finally...only just last week it became public to what extent he and his Cabinet Ministers were involved and how far their conflict of interest extended into the Provincial Government bureaucracy regarding these wind mill farms in Ontario.
He resigned in short order citing "personal, health and family" reasons,...well You know how spin doctors work.
I was one of these who uncorked a bottle of champagne when the United States proved it`s haters wrong and elected a black President...but I fear that he is in the same conflict of interest as our ex- Ontario Premier and as the ex- town supervisors of Meredith NY...not because he is a deliberate crook, but a rather naive, well meaning human being as the people in Meredith who signed these contracts were....and now are caught and trapped. About Your views on American coal,...there is nothing stopping Americans to use it the same way we are in Canada. You would be surprised how clean our coal industry is since over a decade and a half. The "fracking" I totally agree and if Obama would not stop every pipeline that comes from Canada + the new ones, not just the Keystone for oil, but also the additional ones which can bring the entire U.S. need for natural gas from Nunavut and the NWT then there would be no need for fracking.
But big $ ("high") finance, like the Rockefellers etc have almost from the beginning infiltrated each & every "Global warming" activist group and till very recently with impunity violated every foreign lobby group law we have in Canada and You guys have as well in the U.S.:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFqIS8hDV0o&list=UUvj7dbOY14kt_MFIR1Y1iwA&index=29&feature=plcp]Northern pipelines.wmv - YouTube[/ame]
As it stands the Chinese thought they can be the laughing 3rd party and were trying to outright buy some of our Oil and Natural Gas Companies.
But a huge public outcry stopped that dead in it`s tracks. Canadians have no objections if American Companies come in here as the Chinese were trying to do, but why should You guys have to come to (neighboring) Canada to get Natural Gas & Oil with tankers, like the Chinese...??...Obama made it so by blocking the pipeline projects...!!!...And in Canada we know full well why he is doing it..!

Goldman Sachs is one of the most evil companies ever. They need to be destroyed.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Would you support renewables no matter what the climate does? Yes, as I feel wind, solar and wave energy have a place and must be developed. Honestly, I feel there's a market for it and climate plays no part in my support for it.

Electric cars=
Lower imports from the middle east

Solar, wind, wave=energy we don't have to pound out of the ground. Making it easier.

This isn't the way it works bub... markets aren't driven by feelings, they're driven by demand.

Go take a econ 101 class for Crisakes.

 

[Saigon]

This isn't the way it works bub... markets aren't driven by feelings, they're driven by demand.

Go take a econ 101 class for Crisakes.

And is demand ever driven by feelings?

 

[westwall]

This isn't the way it works bub... markets aren't driven by feelings, they're driven by demand.

Go take a econ 101 class for Crisakes.

And is demand ever driven by feelings?

Only for the rich. The regular folks can't afford to buy things based on "feelings". If they could every house would have a supercar in its driveway.

 

[flacaltenn]

This isn't the way it works bub... markets aren't driven by feelings, they're driven by demand.

Go take a econ 101 class for Crisakes.

And is demand ever driven by feelings?

Feelings are for telethons and charities.. A movie is often an emotional choice. But it's driven by a NEED for entertainment. If the entertainment value is lacking -- no amount of "feeling" will save it at the box office...

Same with the Chevy Volt...

 

[tjvh]

Bio-fuel is not an alternative.

What part of renewable escapes you?

 

[Saigon]

Only for the rich. The regular folks can't afford to buy things based on "feelings". If they could every house would have a supercar in its driveway.

Really?

So Coke really is the best tasting drink?

Nike really are better shoes than Adidas or Reebok?

Ford really do make better cars than Toyota?

Or are those decisions subjective and based as much on emotion as fact?

 

[JWBooth]

Should Renewable ever stand on its own, become financially competitive, and offer products of comparative value and usefulness. I'll take a look at it.

I've never driven a Renewable. Who makes them, what is the range, how many passengers?

 

[Mad Scientist]

Would you support renewables no matter what the climate does? Yes, as I feel wind, solar and wave energy have a place and must be developed. Honestly, I feel there's a market for it and climate plays no part in my support for it.

Electric cars=
Lower imports from the middle east

Solar, wind, wave=energy we don't have to pound out of the ground. Making it easier.

Absolutely! But those ideas must succeed or fail on the open market without gov't subsidies. Wouldn't you say that's unfair to those industries not getting those subsidies?

Gov't isn't smart enough to pick winners and losers anyway.

Recycling? Absolutely! Curb rampant consumerism? Of course!

But I just don't want the gov't to do it. The American people are smart enough to decide for themselves.

 

[tjvh]

This isn't the way it works bub... markets aren't driven by feelings, they're driven by demand.

Go take a econ 101 class for Crisakes.

And is demand ever driven by feelings?

I recall one of the root causes for the housing bubble was that people felt they could afford a home when in reality they couldn't, and lenders pushed them through anyway... So to answer your question... Is YES.