Would you support renewable no matter what the climate does?

[Saigon]

Coal used to be the cheapest source for power plants, now it is natural gas.

Thn why do you STILL support the use of COAL?

Jesus wept....

 

[Grandma]

I don't like nuke joints, but I'm not ready to rule them out. I would like to see them built in remote locations, though.

You cannot built nuclear power plants in just any remote location. First, you need water to cool the reactor, so the middle of the desert isn't going to work. Secondly, you can't have endless miles of transmission lines carrying that generated electricity. This is because power is proportional to current but line loss is proportional to current squared. Line loss can be quite large over long distances, up to 30% or so. Make those lines too long and you'll end up with nothing more than a static spark by the time it reaches civilization.

True but only with qualifiers that You may not have considered. In Canada we probably have the longest transmission lines. Good example,all the way from the Nelson River system way into the United States which we also supply with power from there."Line loss" is reduced because we don`t use 60 cycle HV AC lines. Instead we transmit our power as HV DC...and then use converter stations. Nuclear power is almost as "portable" as can be when it comes to power plants. They don`t have to be near a river any more, although it`s more convenient if they are.

Iran is building a reactor at Arak, where it already has a heavy-water production plant

It does not matter what You want to call these, they all need cooling water an You know what happens if that is not available as was the case in Japan.
But we are way past the early stages where a nuclear power plant has to be near a large body of water or a river

There are lots of substantial waterways in the US that aren't too close to population centers. No, we don't have to go out in the desert, it would be awful hard for the workers to commute, I should think. But I am concerned about a Fukishima-like incident in Ohio or PA, where the reactors are too close to heavily populated areas for my liking.

 

[Grandma]

Just one more thing.
These $ "subsidies" that Obama and his no matter what reality is, supporters claim "big oil" is getting...That`s almost the same as if the New York or Philly Mobs would claim that they are "giving" downtown business or construction sites a subsidy if they quit extorting "protection" money from them for a week.
We need a sub thread to this one (Would You support renewable energy no matter what...) and call it "Would You support Obama no matter what reality is"
I hope Romney was wrong when he estimated that 47% of Americans will do so.

It's one thing to utilize every possible resource, it's something else entirely when the country becomes uninhabitable.

Take the fracking quake in Youngstown. It knocked some homes off their foundations and put massive cracks in some other homes' walls. This can't be fixed - well it can, but at a huge expense. No, the homeowners are going to have to tear down those houses and rebuild.

Ever hear of the Bayou Corne Sinkhole?

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-gas-bubbles-miles-from-bayou-sinkhole-expedite-new-actions

And then there's the going-for-another-100-years coal mine fire in Centralia, PA.

I'm not naive, I know that pulling resources out of the ground is going to be messy, a necessary evil, but if it means wiping out inhabited areas then it isn't viable.

 

[polarbear]

Just one more thing.
These $ "subsidies" that Obama and his no matter what reality is, supporters claim "big oil" is getting...That`s almost the same as if the New York or Philly Mobs would claim that they are "giving" downtown business or construction sites a subsidy if they quit extorting "protection" money from them for a week.
We need a sub thread to this one (Would You support renewable energy no matter what...) and call it "Would You support Obama no matter what reality is"
I hope Romney was wrong when he estimated that 47% of Americans will do so.

It's one thing to utilize every possible resource, it's something else entirely when the country becomes uninhabitable.

Take the fracking quake in Youngstown. It knocked some homes off their foundations and put massive cracks in some other homes' walls. This can't be fixed - well it can, but at a huge expense. No, the homeowners are going to have to tear down those houses and rebuild.

Ever hear of the Bayou Corne Sinkhole?

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-gas-bubbles-miles-from-bayou-sinkhole-expedite-new-actions

And then there's the going-for-another-100-years coal mine fire in Centralia, PA.

I'm not naive, I know that pulling resources out of the ground is going to be messy, a necessary evil, but if it means wiping out inhabited areas then it isn't viable.

Yes of course that is deplorable, but don`t spin that coal mine fire into a coal mining episode. That was not an active coal mine and the under ground coal fire was started when somebody set the Centralia dump on fire which the local authorities failed to extinguish properly. After that it spread through a rock crevice and started the underground coal fire. We have underground fires like that in British Columbia`s forests too after some forest fires and it can take many years before the roots quit smoldering.


Coal and coal mining cannot be legislated away by Obama or anybody else, because no industrial nation can do without it:

Exclusive: Iran's coal shipping trade booms despite Western heat | Reuters

Exclusive: Iran's coal shipping trade booms despite Western heat

Despite the setbacks, industry sources say producers in Ukraine are providing Iran with coking coal, also known as metallurgical coal, and coke - key steel ingredients.
"Iranians used to buy a lot of coking coal from Australia to make their own coke but that has stopped now as the big companies there don't want to do it as they are too exposed," a British-based coal trade source said. "So Iran went to buy coke from Ukraine," he added, referring to the concentrated coal used in blast furnaces.

So do tell me,....if You and other democrats get their wish how is the American steel industry supposed to make steel?
Import it from Iran, China or Russia ?
I know that is not Your intention and that Your very legitimate concerns for the environment are honest and not based on a political agenda, but I can`t say that about Obama..!!!

 

[westwall]

Coal used to be the cheapest source for power plants, now it is natural gas.

Thn why do you STILL support the use of COAL?

Jesus wept....

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

 

[Saigon]

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

 

[polarbear]

Coal used to be the cheapest source for power plants, now it is natural gas.

Thn why do you STILL support the use of COAL?

Jesus wept....

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

I hope You don`t mind if I add my 2 cents to Your reply to "Saigon"
Currently the spot market prices for NG is about 1/2 the price per 1 million btu`s than for coal BECAUSE of all the shale gas fracking yields.
It`s one thing to be against fracking which made shale gas cheaper than coal...and then just a few pages later ask "Then why do You STILL support coal"....Jesus wept
I`m in no mood to explain how supply and demand sets the spot market price to this guy, are You ?
Only a few years ago Diesel was cheaper than gasoline, then after diesel engines became more popular..Jesus wept because now diesel costs more than gasoline.
The old "Auto-propane" same story...and when enough cars switch over to LNG, then Jesus will weep again.
And if we all go "Chevy Volt" then Jesus will weep again, this time about the Lithium and Copper spot price,...
Another reason why coal costs more than natural gas is because the steel industry can`t do without it and all You can do with shale gas is burn it.
...something the coal and oil haters keep forgetting...
The only way to get a justifiable & fair demand and supply pricing mechanism is to outlaw the (Leerverkauf) = "short sale" swindle.
Then the price at the pump would not skyrocket the same day Iran bullshits about blocking the Strait of Hormuz.
As long as speculators can "buy" oil, crops or other resources, even electricity that has`nt even bee produced yet and that they never intend to accept delivery for Jesus will continue weeping...no matter if i`ts coal, oil or "renewable power".
I had a real good laugh once...I caught one of these parasites with his pants down in my "working vacation" time as a trucker.
When these "futures contracts" mature the holder has to accept delivery unless he can flip it just in time. Some get greedy and hold on while the price is still going up. I was running a 160 000 lbs Potash B-train from Saskatchewan to Minnesota and the guy who "owned" my load had no warehouse or silos. He was a speculator on a fancy estate.
I ran my load, full hammer down through the night and got to him about an hour before the markets opened where he wanted to flip his contract.
He refused delivery, but I had the Okay from the broker to open all my chutes and dump the entire load right in his driveway...
Can`t remember any other time where I had that much "Schadenfreude"

 

[polarbear]

Thn why do you STILL support the use of COAL?

Jesus wept....

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

I hope You don`t mind if I add my 2 cents to Your reply to "Saigon"
Currently the spot market prices for NG is about 1/2 the price per 1 million btu`s than for coal BECAUSE of all the shale gas fracking yields.
It`s one thing to be against fracking which made shale gas cheaper than coal...and then just a few pages later ask "Then why do You STILL support coal"....Jesus wept
I`m in no mood to explain how supply and demand sets the spot market price to this guy, are You ?
Only a few years ago Diesel was cheaper than gasoline, then after diesel engines became more popular..Jesus wept because now diesel costs more than gasoline.
The old "Auto-propane" same story...and when enough cars switch over to LNG, then Jesus will weep again.
And if we all go "Chevy Volt" then Jesus will weep again, this time about the Lithium and Copper spot price,...
Another reason why coal costs more than natural gas is because the steel industry can`t do without it and all You can do with shale gas is burn it.
...something the coal and oil haters keep forgetting...
The only way to get a justifiable & fair demand and supply pricing mechanism is to outlaw the (Leerverkauf) = "short sale" swindle.
Then the price at the pump would not skyrocket the same day Iran bullshits about blocking the Strait of Hormuz.
As long as speculators can "buy" oil, crops or other resources, even electricity that has`nt even bee produced yet and that they never intend to accept delivery for Jesus will continue weeping...no matter if i`ts coal, oil or "renewable power".
I had a real good laugh once...I caught one of these parasites with his pants down in my "working vacation" time as a trucker.
When these "futures contracts" mature the holder has to accept delivery unless he can flip it just in time. Some get greedy and hold on too long while the price is still going up. I was running a 160 000 lbs Potash B-train from Saskatchewan to Minnesota and the guy who "owned" my load had no warehouse or silos. He was a speculator on a fancy estate.
I ran my load, full hammer down through the night and got to him before the markets opened where he wanted to flip his contract.
He screwed up some truckers before me like that, that were under way and then had to re-route at a moment`s notice to Idaho or some other state.
I got to him while he was still in bed and wanted to refuse delivery, but I had the Okay from the broker to open all my chutes and dump the entire load right in his driveway...and the Sheriff made sure he signed my bill of lading
Can`t remember any other time where I had that much "Schadenfreude"
Except maybe that time..:
It`s a shitty police photo polaroid I kept as a souvenir

I had a load of engine blocks and was sitting there for 5 minutes waiting for security to open the gate...when this BITCH (a nurse in uniform...but not just any nurse...she was a typical nurse "Ratchet") came moto-crossing over the gravel sidewalk and slammed her pickup under my trailer with such force that all her tires exploded. It never even rocked my cab but I heard the bang because I had my windows open while I had my cup of coffee. I dragged her out and she called me every name under the sun. The cops came and she blew the "breathalyzer" , way over the limit...then the tow truck could not get her pickup out from under my trailer...after he busted his winch the cops asked me if I could just run over her truck and drive into the yard...I flattened that sucker like a Schlitz beer can while she watched me in handcuffs from the back seat of the police cruiser...who said trucking can`t be fun...???
Too bad I forgot my video cam when I got the Okay to dump my potash load...that was a sight, let me tell You !

 

[Saigon]

Polarbear -

Prices for raw materials will always be in flu for so many reasons - the prospect of war in the Middle East sends oil through the roof, a major country closing a coal plant could drop the price of coal elsewhere.

But good governments will always look to the future, and consider also issues like what people want, how many jobs are created and the impact on climate change and local pollution etc etc.

Price is the biggest issue, but it is not the only issue which contributes to good energy policy. Energy must be clean, sustainable, and not attract too intense local opposition as to become a political liability.

In most countries this may mean the single largest source is nuclear for the next 20 - 50 years or so, followed by natural gas, tidal, wind and solar, depending on what fits local conditions.

I've never understood people trying to find a one-size-fits-all solution to energy - what makes sense in Texas likely will not make sense in Minnesota.

 

[westwall]

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

 

[Grandma]

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

Stay calm, Westwall. Those numbers change every three or four months. We need to get power speculation out of Wall Street.

 

[polarbear]

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

Stay calm, Westwall. Those numbers change every three or four months. We need to get power speculation out of Wall Street.

EXACTLY...This time You nailed it (again). Westwall is a pretty level headed guy, but sometimes in the other threads guys like "Saigon" etc have been pretty generous with their insults.
I`m still up, because my wife still isn`t home and the roads are icy..so I`m a bit too worried to sleep. But I found a souvenir from that trip where I dumped that load of potash on the front lawn of one of these wall street speculators who makes his $$$ ripping off the farmers and greenhouse operators who need "plant food". I was so eager to get to him to force delivery on him that I broke a few laws on the way. On one of the back-roads I got nailed by a state trooper...he wanted to know if I`m crazy and why I was driving like that...he had the ticket already made out...but :

Stamped it "warning" instead of the huge fine he could have made it for me. That was after I told him why I was ramrodding this load of potash..
He said his dad is a trucker and that him and his dad hate wall street fat cats...then wished me good luck..I blacked out his name so he won`t get into trouble if a zealot reads in this forum...I`m Okay with my name and that was a Yukon Driver`s license, so I`m not worried about "identity theft"
The "insecure load" that was not the main load just a propane tiger torch on my deck, we use it when our chutes under the trailers freeze up from the blowing snow. It was swinging out the sides a little bit when I ran through a curve...nothing too serious.
But You see "Grandma"...You are certainly not the only one who hates wall street fat cats !!!

 

[Saigon]

Because it is STILL significantly cheaper than renewables other than hydro (which is limited to use based on availability of suitable rivers) and reliable as hell. Some plants are not cost effective to change to natural gas so they will remain coal fired and with proper scrubbers to eliminate the particulates coal is fine.

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

Ah-ha. Not such a dimwit that I would attempt to pass of "fossil steam" or "gas turbine and small scale" as useful descriptions of electricity production.

My figures were linked earlier.

 

[polarbear]

Polarbear -

Prices for raw materials will always be in flu for so many reasons - the prospect of war in the Middle East sends oil through the roof, a major country closing a coal plant could drop the price of coal elsewhere.

But good governments will always look to the future, and consider also issues like what people want, how many jobs are created and the impact on climate change and local pollution etc etc.

Price is the biggest issue, but it is not the only issue which contributes to good energy policy. Energy must be clean, sustainable, and not attract too intense local opposition as to become a political liability.

In most countries this may mean the single largest source is nuclear for the next 20 - 50 years or so, followed by natural gas, tidal, wind and solar, depending on what fits local conditions.

I've never understood people trying to find a one-size-fits-all solution to energy - what makes sense in Texas likely will not make sense in Minnesota.

The problem is that You piggy back stuff which is wrong with other stuff that is perfectly Okay...
Nuclear is better than coal for Finland, because You guys have to import coal. Don`t forget that in most places that run coal fired power plants they don`t charge themselves world commodity spot prices for their own coal. I`m not sure how that part works in the U.S. but in Canada most of these coal fired power plants are part of the same corporation that mines for coal. The other part of Your statement touching on the role of "good government" is a matter of political philosophy.
Europeans have an entirely different outlook than North Americans as to the role of Government. We are a more self reliant lot and the less Government the better. Granted some things can`t be implemented other than by Government but even You in Finland could do a lot of things Yourself towards the goals You envision...same goes for every consumer in the U.S. who feels "guilty" about their energy foot print.
"Climate change" advocates tell You that we should all switch to wind and solar...and even go so far as to tell Germans what kind of light bulbs are no longer "legal" etc. Had they listened to engineers most of the problems could have been solved without wasting trillion$.
Every electrical load, especially You house has a "power factor" and much of what You pay for is not even real power but "apparent power"....engineers know what the difference is and the millwrights who install machinery in industrial facilities know about it too...that`s why every inductive load uses "delta-star" start up sequences or is matched with an appropriate capacitor to bring the load power factor as close to 1 as possible. Too bad that most of the private consumers are not doing the same because most of their power demand has a power factor of well below 1 and that causes big big problems with power plants. Matter of fact wind turbines and solar are ill equipped to deal with this problem.
It`s not the old fashioned light bulbs that Germany outlawed that is the problem. It`s Your washing machine, Your drier or anything that uses an electric motor , but also Your micro wave oven. Sometimes they show the power factor also called "Cosine phi" on the ratings label and much of this consumer garbage has power factors well below 0.95. The limit any power grid can deal with is a load aggregate power factor of 0.85
Sometimes it happens that a highly populated area with not much industry starts sucking on the grid with such an unbalanced load factor that the entire grid browns out...power lines, believe it or not get warm and start sagging and may start arcing into trees. Funny that we have time lapse pictures of arctic ice, but nobody ever bothered to do that with high voltage power lines. Anyway it was the load APPARENT power factor not the real amount of power that people did in fact consume what caused the 2003 North America wide black out. Every politician TV station and newspaper started shooting their mouth off what caused it, but they were all totally wrong.
Northeast blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With wind and solar on the grid the power generation business end of the problem gets even way worse than what it has been so far because they simply can`t adjust to it by "throttling up" as it were with hydro turbine wicket gates or a steam turbine. The wind does what it does and the sun shines as it shines and You can`t crank it up to instantly adjust, sometimes even computers don`t react fast enough :

A software bug known as a race condition existed in General Electric Energy's Unix-based XA/21 energy management system. Once triggered, the bug stalled FirstEnergy's control room alarm system for over an hour. System operators were unaware of the malfunction; the failure deprived them of both audio and visual alerts for important changes in system state.[14][15] After the alarm system failure, unprocessed events queued up and the primary server failed within 30 minutes. Then all applications (including the stalled alarm system) were automatically transferred to the backup server, which itself failed at 14:54. The server failures slowed the screen refresh rate of the operators' computer consoles from 1–3 seconds to 59 seconds per screen. The lack of alarms led operators to dismiss a call from American Electric Power about the tripping and reclosure of a 345 kV shared line in northeast Ohio. Technical support informed control room personnel of the alarm system failure at 15:42.[16]

Not every body owns their own house and can install solar or wind turbines, but even apartment dwellers could reduce the load on the main power grid and save a lot of money if they would educate themselves a bit more and make sure they balance their loads better. It`s not as simple as You think it is that just because it says on a windmill or solar array name plate X MegaWatts, that that means REAL POWER.
With AC power it`s not as simple as Volts x Amperes = Watts (in REAL POWER)...!!!!...as it were with DC power.
Think about that before You demand we all switch over to wind and solar.

 

[polarbear]

It`s not a lack of power but the residential consumer which is the big problem,... not Your local saw mill or car assembly plant. However also supermarkets with their freezers and air conditioned hotels + restaurant kitchens are just as bad or even worse than residential hydro customers.
In case You are interested what You can do as an individual to avoid this load factor imbalance on the power grid...and no You don`t need a Government or the IPCC for that..:
1.) Buy "American"...
I`ll take some pictures of an electric dryer that came out of a walmart store and upload them in a couple of days which show the problem.
That cloths drier was all fancy with "digital controls" and such. Somebody brought it to me hoping it could be fixed. The warranty had just expired. Well it turns out the motor was made in China. The wiring was copper colored shellacked fake copper Aluminum wires...illegal in Canada, but somehow the inspection missed it.
The name plate said cos phi 0.95...which was a total lie...it actually was below .8
If You open up a real GE made electric motor it has real copper wires neatly wound spools while the import crap has spools that look like a fishing line reel "bird nest".
2.) You are better off to stay away from fancy digital temp. controlled appliances like for example "modern" air conditioners.
In "power save mode" the compressor is switched on and off way more often than the old analog controls did...and each time they do it causes a load surge. On all my AC`s I hot-wire these digital controls and run them straight off a power bar that is switched by an old fashioned mercury dip switch thermostat. I use way less power running 4 ACs than any of my neighbors that use only one.
2.)On all the other (inductive load) appliances I installed additional load balancing capacitors.
Your local electrician should be able to help You with that.
3.) don`t ever believe what it says on the name and power rating plates of imported appliances...especially not fridges and air conditioners.
If what You bought is in fact made in the USA, then You can rely on truthful name plates,...but not if the motor was made in China and imported by a U.S. assembly/manufacturer like say "Danby"...
same goes for Danby and Panasonic micro wave ovens.
Especially the micro wave ovens with "one size fits all" pulsed magnetrons are big power surge offenders. All they do is to narrow the pulse width to regulate the cooking process but each pulse causes a way larger power surge than a magnetron which was designed for a lower wattage micro wave oven. In the U.S. as far as I know GE is the only one that uses a different magnetron for a 1000 watt MWO than for a 2000 watt.
The imported crap use a 2000 watt and pulse it with shorter "duty cycles"

4.) If possible run Your freezer or fridge during the summer not in the same room that You want to air-condition.
The high pressure loop throws way more heat than You think..:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXfnSzdzVO8&list=UUvj7dbOY14kt_MFIR1Y1iwA&index=7&feature=plcp"]Heating With Cold Air.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

But Yes I admit it I had a solar roof, but a hail storm ruined most panels...
And I love tinkering with wind Turbines.
Anyone who is interested how to make an aerodynamically perfect blade with simple hand tools, let me know and I`ll post it.
But I`m also a realist and just in case I also have 3 gas powered generators. The exhaust runs through an air to air heat exchanger and if I loose the power at 40 below I won`t have to worry about powering up my electric furnace at all.

Just because I drive truck when I get bored does`nt mean I don`t know anything about power engineering.

By the way this e-mail I got today from Germany is for the "global warmers:...:

Bei uns schneit es.
Ja, Du hörst richtig - heute erstes Schneetreiben -
und alle Leute spielen verrückt.

"Schneetreiben" is the German word for blizzard...
Not only did they just have an extreme winter behind them, but this year it started already again. On average they don`t get snow in the Bavarian Alpine foothills till December

Sorry I forgot the most important hint how to save a lot of power with Your AC`s on a hot day. I looped a garden hose round my house
( up in the roof eaves troughs ) ... and have a little lawn sprinkler on each of my 4 AC`s on the "hot" side...when You do that just as soon as You turn these sprinklers on the amperes each AC is drawing is only 1/3 rd as it is without the water spray...sometimes depending from where the sun beats down even 1/4 the power as it does without the sprinkler. It takes very little water to get a huge effect !...way less than You`ld use for Your veggie garden or lawn..
Also it keeps that (out) side of the AC cleaner and washes the flies and mosquitoes out...all You have to do is allow for more slant to drain the water properly.
Did You ever take one apart and look at the crap that accumulates in there (?!) when You operate them the way the owner`s manual says You should !
Also the "cold side" blows way colder when You do that trick with the small sprinklers...so much colder You won`t believe it till You tried it out Yourself !!!

Imagine how much power, alone California could save, if they would sprinkle just a fraction of the water on their AC`s of what they sprinkle on their fancy lawns or golf courses. But they don`t....They rather donate big bucks to enviro.orgs to verbally attack people like me about our "dirty Alberta tar sands" and how much energy a "right wing red neck" like me allegedly "sucks" from the system.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

It doesn't much matter if one supports renewable energy regardless of climate impact or not. The laws of supply and demand will force the issue at the appropriate time.

Fossil fuel sources are finite, and sources that were once just below the surface in the 1800s are long gone now. So, it is a mathematical certainty that supply will decrease as the resource becomes scarcer. Unless demand diminishes, the laws of supply and demand mean that the equilibrium price will continue to increase. Eventually, the price will increase to the point that an equilibrium price is no longer supportable on a mass scale, and the issue will be forced.

The question is how graceful will the inevitable transition be? Take airplanes for example. Current technology dictates that should fossil fuel supply cease to support demand, then planes would begin to be grounded due to the fact that they simply cannot perform on anything but fossil fuels. Perhaps bio fuel, but how much of the earth can we cover with corn fields? This would force ground transportation, such as high-speed rail, which CAN perform more easily on renewable energy sources, to compensate. The simple fact that the U.S. is way behind some other industrialized nations in high-speed rail is an undeniable testament to our dependence on fossil fuel.

It would be a better use of taxpayer money if, instead of investing in green energy industries as the Obama administration is doing, and disastrously so, the money went toward infrastructure and let the industries do it on their own. High-speed rail is a perfect example of something that would work, if only for the infrastructure that could support it. Take Acela for instance, the high-speed arm of Amtrak. They are among the few lines for Amtrak that operate at a profit, proving that there is demand for high-speed rail. Because high-speed rail can more easily perform using renewable energy than air travel, it stands to reason that this would create greater demand for it. So, invest in infrastructure, not green energy companies, damn it.

 

[westwall]

Cost of resources:

Advanced Coal 112.2

Natural Gas 68 - 105

Nuclear 112.7

Onshore Wind 96.8

Hydro 89.9

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So having insisted a couple of pages back that people want the cheapest forms of energy, you then proceed to back the most expensive form of energy known to man.

Coal is CLEARLY more expensive than onshore wind, natural gas, hydro, geothermal and tidal - and yet you either are not smart enough or honest enough to admit that you back it purely and simply for political reasons.

Really - I just can not imagine weaker logic.

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

Stay calm, Westwall. Those numbers change every three or four months. We need to get power speculation out of Wall Street.

Oh, I'm calm granny. I just can't stand this guy anymore. He is an example of the worst type of alarmist propagandist.

 

[flacaltenn]

No matter how many times you LIE about the numbers, these are the REAL numbers nimrod. Gosh but you're a dimwit.


Nuclear 23.98
Fossil Steam 35.76
Hydroelectric 9.15
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 48.74

Stay calm, Westwall. Those numbers change every three or four months. We need to get power speculation out of Wall Street.

EXACTLY...This time You nailed it (again). Westwall is a pretty level headed guy, but sometimes in the other threads guys like "Saigon" etc have been pretty generous with their insults.
I`m still up, because my wife still isn`t home and the roads are icy..so I`m a bit too worried to sleep. But I found a souvenir from that trip where I dumped that load of potash on the front lawn of one of these wall street speculators who makes his $$$ ripping off the farmers and greenhouse operators who need "plant food". I was so eager to get to him to force delivery on him that I broke a few laws on the way. On one of the back-roads I got nailed by a state trooper...he wanted to know if I`m crazy and why I was driving like that...he had the ticket already made out...but :

Stamped it "warning" instead of the huge fine he could have made it for me. That was after I told him why I was ramrodding this load of potash..
He said his dad is a trucker and that him and his dad hate wall street fat cats...then wished me good luck..I blacked out his name so he won`t get into trouble if a zealot reads in this forum...I`m Okay with my name and that was a Yukon Driver`s license, so I`m not worried about "identity theft"
The "insecure load" that was not the main load just a propane tiger torch on my deck, we use it when our chutes under the trailers freeze up from the blowing snow. It was swinging out the sides a little bit when I ran through a curve...nothing too serious.
But You see "Grandma"...You are certainly not the only one who hates wall street fat cats !!!

You are quite the threat to the general public.. How can you simultaneously "impede the flow of traffic", be speeding, UNBELTED AND run a Stop Sign???

I'll give you a break on the "unsecured load", but having LIGHTS OUT??? C'mon man.. The rig says "Stop me and write a ticket"...


The power factor observation is quite interesting. Used to be that big inductive motors and machinery was the biggest problem. But NOW --- modern electronics uses "switching power supplies" for everything and their load factor needs to be corrected. Never approaches FULLY corrected tho and if you multiply the "grid loss" by 10Mill Iphone chargers -- it's starts to add up.. ALSO -- Incandescent bulbs had a P.F. of a perfect ONE. They consumed exactly their rating. Both CFL and LED bulbs have built in FULL power supplies that screw the PF to anywhere between .80 and .90. So NOW almost EVERYTHING in the house contributes something to losses at the meter.

 

[Mr. H.]

Ameren is planning to construct a new high-voltage power line across the state of Illinois.

Ameren to run $1 billion power line through Mount Zion; community meeting planned

The Illinois Rivers project will involve stringing 330 miles of 345,000 volt transmission lines from West Adair, Mo., to Sugar Creek, Ind.

I went to one of their informational meetings. Off the bat, it was evident that they are setting themselves up to take advantage of the Illinois Renewable Electricity Mandate Status.

Institute for Energy Research | Illinois Renewable Electricity Mandate Status

The gal next to me said "what about Illinois coal"?

I said "what about Illinois natural gas"?

No comment.

 

[polarbear]

You are quite the threat to the general public.. How can you simultaneously "impede the flow of traffic", be speeding, UNBELTED AND run a Stop Sign???

I'll give you a break on the "unsecured load", but having LIGHTS OUT??? C'mon man.. The rig says "Stop me and write a ticket"...


The power factor observation is quite interesting. Used to be that big inductive motors and machinery was the biggest problem. But NOW --- modern electronics uses "switching power supplies" for everything and their load factor needs to be corrected. Never approaches FULLY corrected tho and if you multiply the "grid loss" by 10Mill Iphone chargers -- it's starts to add up.. ALSO -- Incandescent bulbs had a P.F. of a perfect ONE. They consumed exactly their rating. Both CFL and LED bulbs have built in FULL power supplies that screw the PF to anywhere between .80 and .90. So NOW almost EVERYTHING in the house contributes something to losses at the meter.

He followed me for about 5 minutes, staying way back so he told me after he had me "pulled over"...except that I did not pull over far enough onto the shoulder. I did not want to because I was sure it was too soft. With a heavy rig it happens once in a while that the shoulder caves in. The "no lights" that happens easier than You think in cold weather and through tight turns...the coiled connector cable to the trailer gets stiff , then the coils does not flex and the cable gradually works its way out of the plug...not uncommon after lots of tight turns in cold weather.
Seatbelt? In a B-train? It`s downright silly, but that`s the law in most U.S. States,...not in Canada except for Quebec and Ontario. How am I supposed to reach for my sandwiches in the cooler on the other seat wearing a seat-belt...most of the time we drive over frozen Lakes and Rivers when we run North. I`ll be damned if I tie a truck to my ass while I can hear the ice crack. I actually forgot I had a seat-belt in that Freightliner.

Yes that power factor is thee biggest problem and yes You had it right with the old fashioned light bulbs, they have a perfect 1 as a power factor..

Mr.H. wrote about new power lines. Manitoba Hydro asked our Reservation to vote in November if we allow another new one through our land...going south into the good old U.S. of A. We are all voting "Yes"...besides we get royalty payments for the land strip.
Why should we refuse You Nelson River hydro power...after all Fargo ND sends us lots of their (flood) water every spring down the Red River...we store as much as we can in Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg and then generate power with it year-round, cue the video to 3:56: