why government should never perform private enterprise functions

[CrusaderFrank]

Here's 2 real world concrete examples of why government sucks and should never perform private enterprise functions:

World Trade Center Redevelopment. The NY and NJ Port Authority, an organization that outlived its usefulness after WWI has control of the redevelopment of the WTC site. Larry Silverstein, a private developer had control of a site immediately next door, he's built and fully occupied. But because unionized government workers benefit the longer it takes to build and the more it costs, the PA site is years late and billions overbudget. Who pays for it? Does the PA have to come out of its pocket to make up the difference? No! The suckers, that is the taxpayers, pay for it.

The NY MTA controls Grand Central Station, one of the busiest commuter hubs on the planet. They are the landlord, they handle leasing the space. Apple computer just signed a lease there for $80/foot and no percentage rent, that's right NO percentage rent and less than half the going rate for the space. There is not a private real estate investor or landlord that would remain in business longer than a day if they operated like that, but because the MTA Commuter and the taxpayer make up the difference we get to pay for their criminal incompetence. Also, the commuter railroad run by the MTA, has no business class, no wifi, not even seats with cup holders and to top it off, because its run by morons in unions, half the seat face backward.

PA and MTA should be privatized.

True story.

 

[Steelplate]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

 

[Sallow]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

 

[blastoff]

If any government entity is involved in something it simply becomes a matter of degree of the screwup(s).

 

[CrusaderFrank]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

 

[Jackson]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter if they work or not.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Rode in today on the MTA and had the pleasure of sitting in the 3-across seats that face each other and are about 14 inches apart. Yes grown ups facing each other and having to arrange their legs like we're in a porno movie. Felt like the same seating plan you'd find in the old USSR.

 

[The Rabbi]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter if they work or not.

"As in previous years, the 2010 Port Authority payroll reflects extraordinarily high pay levels, even by the standards of the region's quasi-autonomous public authorities. For example:
• The 7,345 employees received average base salaries of $79,144. But overtime and other extras inflated the average total pay to over $90,000.
• Fully 36 percent of the authority's employees were paid a total of more than $100,000.
• The 100 highest-paid employees included 54 police officers, 24 of whom were paid over $200,000 each. "

Port Authority of NY & NJ Among the Most Generous of the Region's Large Public-Sector Employers - Public Sector Inc. Forum

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The PA works like Jon Corzines firm

"For years, top management scrambled to cover up the budget-busting numbers.
"Everybody knew that it wasn't the full numbers," one expert on PA finances said. "Everybody knew the numbers were off from the start."


Read more: WTC cost overruns led to massive PA toll hike - NYPOST.com

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

Just because you are union, doesn't mean you are getting better quality highly efficient workers. That is a myth. I've been on jobs where union employees don't seem to care how long it takes for something to get done, or the manner of which it's accomplished, so long as they have their paycheck and hours worked going towards their pensions.

BTW Port Authority allows the work to be done on their site, provided you have undergone a strict homelend security background check. They can hire whomever they want to do the job, it doesn't necessarily have to be union. In fact there are some non-union companies, who's business reputation is on the line, that would probably not take issue with providing the extra manpower and time required to see that the contract DOESN'T go over budget. It's not the contractor milking a job, they are there to see each phase is done right and ON SCHEDULE or it costs them. Just because there is a delay, doesn't automatically constitute the contractor is looking to use the job for extra profit. I'm sure it may look that way towards someone who has never done construction. However these delays generally are over issues such as discrepancies over tasks in the plans (clarification or RMIs - Request for More Information), engineering issues, or that a particular trade is UNDERmanned (well over their head) and can never keep up. Sometimes its the ability of the individual trade to take up the slack, that makes all the difference in seeing the job gets done and on budget.

 

[Steelplate]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

Let's get the facts right... first off.. 7WTC is 741 feet tall... 1WTC will be 1776 feet tall at the antenna spire....1386 feet of usable space. 7WTC started Construction in 2002 and was completed in 2006. 1WTC broke ground in 2006 and will be completed in 2012.

But besides the huge physical difference between the two buildings, there is also the WTC Memorial to be considered, the WTC Museum and the planning to make it not only a major business draw, but also a place of remembrance for the people of the United States.
So all in all... 6 years for a 1700 foot building and memorial compared to 4 years for a 700 foot building with no other obligations seems pretty good to me.

Lastly, the company that is Constructing 1WTC is Tishman Construction... a PRIVATE Company.

You're all full of shit.

 

[TheDecepticon]

If you want to control the OUTCOME (i.e. better healthcare) you need government involvement.
If you don't give a shit about the outcome, then the private sector does better.

Can you imagine choosing from several different companies providing your water supply? Each one with a different standard? How about choosing your SEWER company? Would you LIKE to see the same service and customer service that you get with say a cell phone company, to your water? Hidden fees and charges. Raising costs to their customers so their board can maintain the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed?
Thanks, but no thanks, CONZ.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

Let's get the facts right... first off.. 7WTC is 741 feet tall... 1WTC will be 1776 feet tall at the antenna spire....1386 feet of usable space. 7WTC started Construction in 2002 and was completed in 2006. 1WTC broke ground in 2006 and will be completed in 2012.

But besides the huge physical difference between the two buildings, there is also the WTC Memorial to be considered, the WTC Museum and the planning to make it not only a major business draw, but also a place of remembrance for the people of the United States.
So all in all... 6 years for a 1700 foot building and memorial compared to 4 years for a 700 foot building with no other obligations seems pretty good to me.

Lastly, the company that is Constructing 1WTC is Tishman Construction... a PRIVATE Company.

You're all full of shit.

You made our point!

Freddo! You are smart, not like everyone says, like dumb! I respect you for that

Tishman was the contractor for both and when there's a private owner there is pressure to perform, when the PA is the owner it's "How can we fuck the taxpayer today?"

 

[Steelplate]

Oh.. so the difference in size and scope of the two projects has nothing to do with it?

Plus... if there is a problem with Tishman "taking it's time", Then that lies at the feet of the company fulfilling the god damned Contract... not the customer.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

Agree with the squabbles over how the site should be developed. Disagree about American Airlines, et.al. Private transportation of that magnitude has been hobbled by government over-regulation for many, many years now.

 

[Contumacious]

Here's 2 real world concrete examples of why government sucks and should never perform private enterprise functions:

You people are so fucking negative.

Its not like we are a quadrillion dollars in the hole. For heaven's sake its only 15 TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTrillion.

Bernanke has barrels full of ink , ready to print lots of federal reserve notes.

So chill out dawg.

.

 

[Steelplate]

Here's 2 real world concrete examples of why government sucks and should never perform private enterprise functions:

You people are so fucking negative.

Its not like we are a quadrillion dollars in the hole. For heaven's sake its only 15 TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTrillion.

Bernanke has barrels full of ink , ready to print lots of federal reserve notes.

So chill out dawg.

.

Hey... thanks for the inane contribution to the discussion.

 

[Steelplate]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

Just because you are union, doesn't mean you are getting better quality highly efficient workers. That is a myth. I've been on jobs where union employees don't seem to care how long it takes for something to get done, or the manner of which it's accomplished, so long as they have their paycheck and hours worked going towards their pensions.

BTW Port Authority allows the work to be done on their site, provided you have undergone a strict homelend security background check. They can hire whomever they want to do the job, it doesn't necessarily have to be union. In fact there are some non-union companies, who's business reputation is on the line, that would probably not take issue with providing the extra manpower and time required to see that the contract DOESN'T go over budget. It's not the contractor milking a job, they are there to see each phase is done right and ON SCHEDULE or it costs them. Just because there is a delay, doesn't automatically constitute the contractor is looking to use the job for extra profit. I'm sure it may look that way towards someone who has never done construction. However these delays generally are over issues such as discrepancies over tasks in the plans (clarification or RMIs - Request for More Information), engineering issues, or that a particular trade is UNDERmanned (well over their head) and can never keep up. Sometimes its the ability of the individual trade to take up the slack, that makes all the difference in seeing the job gets done and on budget.

You missed the point... first off.. Good 'ol Frankie boy indicated that the reason that 1WTC was fucked up was because it was being built by public employees. Once I pointed out that that wasn't true and it was CONTRACTED out to a PRIVATE firm... he then blamed government for a PRIVATE COMPANY screwing over the taxpayer. But rail on if you want.

EDIT: so if Tishman is taking the losses for the contract, why is Frankie so upset?

 

[Steelplate]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

Agree with the squabbles over how the site should be developed. Disagree about American Airlines, et.al. Private transportation of that magnitude has been hobbled by government over-regulation for many, many years now.

Yeah, because we all want to roll the dice on ending up a statistic when we fly.