why government should never perform private enterprise functions

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Oh.. so the difference in size and scope of the two projects has nothing to do with it?

Plus... if there is a problem with Tishman "taking it's time", Then that lies at the feet of the company fulfilling the god damned Contract... not the customer.

Are you currently working with a trade that's looking to build this new World Trade Center? Have you done any form of construction yourself, or merely observing with an opinion from afar?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

You missed the point... first off.. Good 'ol Frankie boy indicated that the reason that 1WTC was fucked up was because it was being built by public employees. Once I pointed out that that wasn't true and it was CONTRACTED out to a PRIVATE firm... he then blamed government for a PRIVATE COMPANY screwing over the taxpayer. But rail on if you want.

EDIT: so if Tishman is taking the losses for the contract, why is Frankie so upset?

A lot of the codes have changed between then and now. The electrical codes for example are always updated every 4 years or so. Things like spraying beams with a fireproofing foam, for example, probably wasn't required or practiced back then. Also not every contractor has employees that really care about the quality of the work they do, or the unsafe conditions they leave behind with their work. All trades are guilty of this, to which none are immune. That of course is what inspectors are there for, and a good lead contractor would have personnel and positions in place to be sure the integrety of the job is not compromised. To say that the contractor in charge is simply being lazy or looking for extra profit, is only reported by those who don't know a thing about the construction industry or the added costs that can accumulate to effect the job .

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

Agree with the squabbles over how the site should be developed. Disagree about American Airlines, et.al. Private transportation of that magnitude has been hobbled by government over-regulation for many, many years now.

Yeah, because we all want to roll the dice on ending up a statistic when we fly.

You do everytime you force government regulations that puts fuel economy over safety. Then the automakers, to meet compliance, are always faced with stripping the car down and looking to lighter materials to build them with. Anyone figure out why we even have bumpers anymore? They used to be there to try and contain or prevent the vehicle from further damage. Try hitting a tree going 7 miles per hour and see what happens, then compare that demonstration to a car built in 1978.

 

[Zander]

Tishman is using a cost plus contract for wtc1 - the longer the project takes, the more they make. The taxpayers foot the inflated bill.

On wtc7 Tishman bid the job on a lump sum contract. The faster and more efficiently they complete the job, the more profitable it becomes. That is why wtc7 was done on time. Wtc1 will be over budget and have plenty of delays.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

You were doing really good, then you blew it.

Are you aware that every single railroad in the history of the US that accepted government funds went bankrupt? Did you know that the only railroad that did not file for bankruptcy was the only one that did not take government funds to help it lay track? Yet, I am supposed to take that evidence, and the undisputed fact that AA has repeatedly applied for, and gotten, government grants, and conclude the problem is that the government is not involved in AA at all, and that we need to turn transportation over to the government.

Sorry, my just blocked my view of your argument, could you repeat it again?

 

[Steelplate]

Oh.. so the difference in size and scope of the two projects has nothing to do with it?

Plus... if there is a problem with Tishman "taking it's time", Then that lies at the feet of the company fulfilling the god damned Contract... not the customer.

Are you currently working with a trade that's looking to build this new World Trade Center? Have you done any form of construction yourself, or merely observing with an opinion from afar?

Well Common sense would tell you(if you had any) that a 1776 ft building will take longer to build than a 700 ft building... not to mention that along with that 1776 ft building, that there was a memorial and museum to build along with it.

But hey... prattle on if you like.

 

[Steelplate]

You missed the point... first off.. Good 'ol Frankie boy indicated that the reason that 1WTC was fucked up was because it was being built by public employees. Once I pointed out that that wasn't true and it was CONTRACTED out to a PRIVATE firm... he then blamed government for a PRIVATE COMPANY screwing over the taxpayer. But rail on if you want.

EDIT: so if Tishman is taking the losses for the contract, why is Frankie so upset?

A lot of the codes have changed between then and now. The electrical codes for example are always updated every 4 years or so. Things like spraying beams with a fireproofing foam, for example, probably wasn't required or practiced back then. Also not every contractor has employees that really care about the quality of the work they do, or the unsafe conditions they leave behind with their work. All trades are guilty of this, to which none are immune. That of course is what inspectors are there for, and a good lead contractor would have personnel and positions in place to be sure the integrety of the job is not compromised. To say that the contractor in charge is simply being lazy or looking for extra profit, is only reported by those who don't know a thing about the construction industry or the added costs that can accumulate to effect the job .

well, then... If I'm off base by assuming that The Contractor is looking to profiteer off of this venture, wouldn't Frankie be at LEAST equally off base by blaming big bad Gubmint?

Let me guess, of course not... because your a conservative.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

Jake? How much worse could it get? Billions overbudget and years late.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Unions had very little to do with the WTC "speed". It was more the families of the victims..because they wanted to turn the whole site into a monument.

And private organizations involved in transportation..don't do very well.

SEE: American Airlines.

Agree with the squabbles over how the site should be developed. Disagree about American Airlines, et.al. Private transportation of that magnitude has been hobbled by government over-regulation for many, many years now.

Yeah, because we all want to roll the dice on ending up a statistic when we fly.

You have a much greater chance of becoming a statistic driving a car than flying in an airplane. It's been like that for a very long time. But so many people are just too happy to wear their rose-colored glasses and see only what the government tells them to see. Of course, all that regulation is for their safety. Nothing to do with politics.

 

[The T]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

Government operates for profit as well...thier profit is control and parsing out liberty to the governed.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

Poor Jake, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[Jackson]

wow... true story huh? Ok... where's the proof that it's because of "unionized" employees? First off, I call bullshit on that Premise because Unionized Public Employees get paid no matter what job they are doing. I'd blame the fucking contractors milking the job out to boost their profits.

BTW... does the Port Authority do the construction, or do they contract it out to a PRIVATE SECTOR contractor, who is taking advantage of the PA and the Taxpayers? The PA does not have the personnel to work such a big project and do their regular duties.

You sir, are dishonest.

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

Best post I've seen today.

 

[The T]

No, honey, in the real world, the contractors are hired by the owner and they sign a contract that has a price and timeline. If the contractor fucks up it costs him.

Larry Silverstein hired a Tishman to build 7WTC, Darling heart, and he got it build on time and not years and years behind schedule and billions over budget

Private enterprise operates (gasp) for profit. Therefore they have every incentive to be as efficient and cost-saving as possible.
Public enterprise operates for political purposes. Therefore they have little to no incentive to be efficient and cost saving.
If a manager in a private company screws up and costs the company millions, he gets fired.
If a manager in a public entity screws up and costs them millions, he requests an increase in his budget for the next year.

Best post I've seen today.

Good post indeed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

Jake? How much worse could it get? Billions overbudget and years late.

Deflection only reveals you are clueless.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

Poor Jake, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8qFvo2qJOU]Sandy Springs, Georgia: The City that Outsourced Everything - YouTube[/ame]

A slanted vid in contrast to TVA, REA, and the IHA?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"Privatization" of government functions results in the weakening of services and customer service to clients: witness foster care, prisons, elder care, military logistics, etc.

Events like the REA and the TVA and the Interstate Highway Act did far better than private contractors on their own were willing or capable of doing.

Frank, stop the ideology and start being a guy who thinks, that is, understands ideas.

Poor Jake, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8qFvo2qJOU]Sandy Springs, Georgia: The City that Outsourced Everything - YouTube[/ame]

A slanted vid in contrast to TVA, REA, and the IHA?

Slanted?

The TVA was started as a business enterprise, and has required taxpayer subsidies every single year, that is a great example of a success story if you are a complete idiot.

Ooops.

The REA/RUS is a loan guarantee program.

The IHA is part of the national defense program, I expect a self proclaimed Republican like you to provide a knee jerk, unthinking, justification of anything that has to do with national defense.

 

[JakeStarkey]

QWB has no ability to support the slant that TVA, REA, and IHA were great projects that business on its own could have done better.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Look what I found at the intersection of criminally irresponsible financial management and taxpayer money known as public unions.

"The Port Authority, known for its largess and keeping its business from public view, yesterday went live with a new Web site listing the full salaries — including overtime and extras — for every one of its 6,777 employees.

And what a list it is. The database, available at www.panynj.gov/payroll, tells a story of an agency that, while crying poverty, is paying some of its workers more in overtime than the $48,743 brought in each year by the average New York City family.

So far in 2011, one maintenance supervisor has pulled down $152,902 — nearly double his annual salary of $84,916 — thanks to more than $7,000 in OT, another $54,000 for cashing in unused vacation and personal days, and other payments.


Read more: Port Authority Web site shows huge salaries - NYPOST.com

 

[Steelplate]

Look what I found at the intersection of criminally irresponsible financial management and taxpayer money known as public unions.

"The Port Authority, known for its largess and keeping its business from public view, yesterday went live with a new Web site listing the full salaries — including overtime and extras — for every one of its 6,777 employees.

And what a list it is. The database, available at www.panynj.gov/payroll, tells a story of an agency that, while crying poverty, is paying some of its workers more in overtime than the $48,743 brought in each year by the average New York City family.

So far in 2011, one maintenance supervisor has pulled down $152,902 — nearly double his annual salary of $84,916 — thanks to more than $7,000 in OT, another $54,000 for cashing in unused vacation and personal days, and other payments.


Read more: Port Authority Web site shows huge salaries - NYPOST.com

In our state.... We can't "cash in" anything until we retire. When we retire, we "cash in 100% of our annual leave. We can "cash in" our sick time, but we only get 33% of the accumulated value. I don't know how it operates in NY... but if it's similar, the dude probably retired and it was a one time deal. You see? It's HOW things get reported that can skew opinion more than the actual facts.

Before you even start... let me ask you something.... why shouldn't a worker be able to "cash in" accumulated leave when they retire? I guess that the worker should just be magnanimous and let all those days of leave that he EARNED, that he COULD have taken off, but didn't just go back to the state?

As far as the OT? 7K is a hell of a lot cheaper than hiring another Supervisor and paying another set of benefits, isn't it?

OK, you can resume your one sided douchebaggery now.