Why do Progressives Hate Religion?

[emilynghiem]

Hi Sealybobo:

A. Long before Occupy protested Wall Street, Bruce Marks of NACA protested there alone, issuing Press statement demanding to know why the govt was bailing out the very corporate predatory lenders who had rooked people into losing their homes, while his NACA group struggled to get any capital to lend to save houses at reasonable rates!
NACA

Unlike others, he actually was investing in SOLVING the problem, even shamed BOA into lending him money so he could lend it out to homeowners and keep working families from losing their houses!

Where is everyone else pushing for microlending and demanding that this replace welfare and bailouts????

B. When I tried to help Occupy Houston, all the good activists who wanted to work on longterm sustainable solutions got kicked out of the movement. I was verbally abused, accused of false things that other people did to me not me to them, so others could abuse the Legal team to try to TAKE PROPERTY away from one of the community leaders who let ME pay to rent office space for these activists.

I blame the IGNORANCE, the lack of legal and financial knowledge that made them act out of desperation.
The VICTIM mentality, that made the bullies in these protest groups take charge
while the working people investing in longterm solutions got rooked out of the money I invested
because the good people got chased out and the office space I set up to support community partnership
fell apart. Everyone blamed me. And to this day, I still have people blaming me for what these protestors did.

It makes the whole movement look bad, even me when I am working investing my own labor and money to
solve problems.

C. In short, the division IS the enemy. Any attitude that assumes "that other group" is the enemy,
will eventually turn on you or against each other with the same mentality.

The people who have spoken out about Microlending and business education, training and development,
(including land and property ownership and management training as I INSISTED upon to stop this infighting for control, which still managed to run over me even when I was trying to address this as the root problem)
include:
* Obama and Dr. Ben Carson whom the media has politically divided and discouraged from working together
* the Green Party, with the approach to Fair Trade, Independent currency to promote local business and labor
Why can't we unite instead of divide and blame some group to justify attacking instead of building?

Even Obama's cousin Dr. Milton Wolf called for the Tea Party and Occupy to unite against corporate cronyism.
And more recently Ron Paul and Ralph Nader called for progressives and libertarians to unite against political corruption destroying the democratic system and govt.

Why can't we unite and hold the wrongdoers (whether poor or rich criminals living off taxpayer paid welfare)
responsible for paying back the public for costs of their crimes or corruption?

Why demonize one group or another as the enemy?
When the same divisive destructive politics has infiltrated every group, and that is the problem, not the group itself.

I agree. But they won't go after the real fraud and abuse. The wasteful war/pentagon spending. The corporate welfare. The tax loopholes.

That's what I'm saying: let the people go after the fraud and abuse who DO specialize in policing that! There are plenty of advocacy groups on ALL sides that have invested resources in researching the wrongs of one group or another.
Let's organize a coalition and work with law schools, form teams around each case, and set up a system of restitution for taxpayers to get paid back. If one school or law firm only goes after environmental/corporate cases, and another only goes after corrupt war spending, etc. that's good enough! Delegate out the work; don't try to force the wrong groups to do what they are not motivated to do, listen to the grievances they ARE willing to pursue and fix them ALL.

Don't you know the opponents of liberal abuses are the "only ones" willing to point out corruption by Democrats?
So why not go after ALL of these? I think the Libertarians, Greens, and others would welcome holding all Parties accountable instead of taking turns trying to blame one or the other for political points. What about real corrections?

PS. It is impossible to get the middle class to unite so we can take back our government. Half the middle class thinks the word Democrat is a dirty word. So instead of joining us they get suckered into joining the tea baggers who are Koch funded or the Libertarians who want a every man for himself survival of the fittest type society. Or they are conned into voting GOP over wedge issues like god, gays, guns and racism.

In the 90's we were doing so well we had the luxury of voting because of wedge issues. For example, how many union factory workers might have voted GOP because of Guns or abortion? Today we see that the GOP cut their pensions, sent their jobs overseas and broke their unions and made them pay more for healthcare. Not only did they do this but Governor Snyder in Michigan tax Seniors pensions and raised their property taxes. SO, if any of them vote for Snyder in November, I guess they get what they deserve.

I'd say it is hard to get people to SEE the need and benefit in uniting.
But it is necessary and may be INEVITABLE in order to correct the current situation.

One key is to make it clear that people DO NOT need to "change their views to the other side" in order to unite against common problems and focus on points of common solutions.

For example, I have friends who are Atheist, Muslim, Jewish-Christian who do not agree with each other's religions and never will. But they agree on peace and justice, and just focus on steps to take they do agree on.

And that's enough.

When people quit thinking and fearing that to work on common solutions means to compromise one's views for the "other side" maybe we can start finding and taking those steps we can agree will work to fix problems.

So the hardest part is overcoming the fear of manipulation or compromise.
Why not just accept the fact we have differences and find where we agree DESPITE those.

Those few areas are enough to keep us plenty busy and solve the key root of most problems.
We don't want corruption and abuse/waste of govt power, policy and taxdollars.

If we agree on solutions, we can agree to invest there either publicly or privately whatever works best.
if we do not agree, we can agree to build privately, just like religions practice separate ways and don't
have to compete to make one way the only right way for everyone else, to each his own, and you just
practice and develop the community and culture around your way of doing things and let others have their way.

If we can even get that understanding in place, the rest can be worked out.

Everyone from every party I see, has solutions in different areas. Why not organize them all
and start taking on the tasks of troubleshooting and solving these problems and paying back taxpayers
for whatever abuse was going on. If there is no money to replace what was wasted, issue credits and work off the debts. If investors lend the money against the debt, let communities and businesses buy back local land and schools as collateral and invest in rebuilding localized govt that they have ownership in so there is not outside abuse going on by political groups exploiting and controlling others. Reward taxpayers for fixing govt ourselves by giving the option to lend or buy back districts against the debts owed to taxpayers for corruption and abuses.

All people want control and representation in whatever policies affect them, and want a choice if they are going to give power to other groups; nobody wants to be controlled or abused by some outside group they cannot check.

We set up mutual respect, regardless of people's political or religious views, and we can organize around each issue that needs to be resolved and get something done, instead of dividing and fighting each other wasting energy, time, attention and resources while our country is going downhill. instead of arguing who let the house catch on fire and burn, let's work on identifying the areas of the fires and put them out. We can figure out how to rebuild from there, but let's not argue while the house is burning down.

A great opportunity would have been when the Wall Street Protesters protested but then the corporate media started calling all those people slackers and hippies and takers.

Any question Wall Street fucked us?

Did you notice how quietly the corporate media was on this? Did you get the money they stole from you back? I didn't. I never will because I'm not in over my head on my mortgage thank god, but I still got fucked by these criminals. Did anyone go to jail? NOPE.

The truth behind the 17 billion Bank of America settlement MSNBC

“This historic resolution—the largest such settlement on record

The settlement’s $7 billion consumer relief package accompanies nearly $10 billion in fines, as well as a formal admission from the bank that it knowingly misled the government and the public about the value of toxic mortgage securities.

Key word KNOWINGLY! Us liberals were screaming at the righties in 2007 that not only did the bankers fuck us, they KNOWINGLY did it. I even think they did it on purpose. They got to renig on pensions, move jobs overseas, let employees go, use the crisis to push for tax breaks, break unions, etc. I could go on and on.

Anyways, notice the right argued with us. It was Freddy Macks fault they said. It was Harry Reeds fault. It was Nancy Pelosi. Then Obama took over, they gave him about a month and it was his fault.

And the GOP fought him every step of the way. And the dumb ass American people didn't show up in 2010 and the GOP were rewarded. And people won't show up this midterm and the GOP will be rewarded again.

The American people are stupid. This is why I try not to talk politics with them because they infuriate me. Even you because you want us to play nice with the enemy. Yes, the ENEMY. This is class warfare. They waged it and we're losing. But a lot of Americans are content to be losers. They still think they live in the greatest country on earth. Not anymore unless they are rich or upper middle class. If they are middle class, lower middle class or poor they could do better in Canada now a days. Sad but true. Want to be able to afford college and be able to retire with dignity? If you stay in America you better do real well. If you do not do REAL well then you'll have better luck in Canada or Australia with free healthcare. Right now healthcare and food are eating up the middle class' disposable income. That's what they buy things with and that is what they save for retirement.

Check out how much Americans are saving and how much they are in debt. PATHETIC!

 

[MaxGrit]

Hi Sealybobo:

A. Long before Occupy protested Wall Street, Bruce Marks of NACA protested there alone, issuing Press statement demanding to know why the govt was bailing out the very corporate predatory lenders who had rooked people into losing their homes, while his NACA group struggled to get any capital to lend to save houses at reasonable rates!
NACA

Unlike others, he actually was investing in SOLVING the problem, even shamed BOA into lending him money so he could lend it out to homeowners and keep working families from losing their houses!

Where is everyone else pushing for microlending and demanding that this replace welfare and bailouts????

B. When I tried to help Occupy Houston, all the good activists who wanted to work on longterm sustainable solutions got kicked out of the movement. I was verbally abused, accused of false things that other people did to me not me to them, so others could abuse the Legal team to try to TAKE PROPERTY away from one of the community leaders who let ME pay to rent office space for these activists.

I blame the IGNORANCE, the lack of legal and financial knowledge that made them act out of desperation.
The VICTIM mentality, that made the bullies in these protest groups take charge
while the working people investing in longterm solutions got rooked out of the money I invested
because the good people got chased out and the office space I set up to support community partnership
fell apart. Everyone blamed me. And to this day, I still have people blaming me for what these protestors did.

It makes the whole movement look bad, even me when I am working investing my own labor and money to
solve problems.

C. In short, the division IS the enemy. Any attitude that assumes "that other group" is the enemy,
will eventually turn on you or against each other with the same mentality.

The people who have spoken out about Microlending and business education, training and development,
(including land and property ownership and management training as I INSISTED upon to stop this infighting for control, which still managed to run over me even when I was trying to address this as the root problem)
include:
* Obama and Dr. Ben Carson whom the media has politically divided and discouraged from working together
* the Green Party, with the approach to Fair Trade, Independent currency to promote local business and labor
Why can't we unite instead of divide and blame some group to justify attacking instead of building?

Even Obama's cousin Dr. Milton Wolf called for the Tea Party and Occupy to unite against corporate cronyism.
And more recently Ron Paul and Ralph Nader called for progressives and libertarians to unite against political corruption destroying the democratic system and govt.

Why can't we unite and hold the wrongdoers (whether poor or rich criminals living off taxpayer paid welfare)
responsible for paying back the public for costs of their crimes or corruption?

Why demonize one group or another as the enemy?
When the same divisive destructive politics has infiltrated every group, and that is the problem, not the group itself.

I agree. But they won't go after the real fraud and abuse. The wasteful war/pentagon spending. The corporate welfare. The tax loopholes.

That's what I'm saying: let the people go after the fraud and abuse who DO specialize in policing that! There are plenty of advocacy groups on ALL sides that have invested resources in researching the wrongs of one group or another.
Let's organize a coalition and work with law schools, form teams around each case, and set up a system of restitution for taxpayers to get paid back. If one school or law firm only goes after environmental/corporate cases, and another only goes after corrupt war spending, etc. that's good enough! Delegate out the work; don't try to force the wrong groups to do what they are not motivated to do, listen to the grievances they ARE willing to pursue and fix them ALL.

Don't you know the opponents of liberal abuses are the "only ones" willing to point out corruption by Democrats?
So why not go after ALL of these? I think the Libertarians, Greens, and others would welcome holding all Parties accountable instead of taking turns trying to blame one or the other for political points. What about real corrections?

PS. It is impossible to get the middle class to unite so we can take back our government. Half the middle class thinks the word Democrat is a dirty word. So instead of joining us they get suckered into joining the tea baggers who are Koch funded or the Libertarians who want a every man for himself survival of the fittest type society. Or they are conned into voting GOP over wedge issues like god, gays, guns and racism.

In the 90's we were doing so well we had the luxury of voting because of wedge issues. For example, how many union factory workers might have voted GOP because of Guns or abortion? Today we see that the GOP cut their pensions, sent their jobs overseas and broke their unions and made them pay more for healthcare. Not only did they do this but Governor Snyder in Michigan tax Seniors pensions and raised their property taxes. SO, if any of them vote for Snyder in November, I guess they get what they deserve.

I'd say it is hard to get people to SEE the need and benefit in uniting.
But it is necessary and may be INEVITABLE in order to correct the current situation.

One key is to make it clear that people DO NOT need to "change their views to the other side" in order to unite against common problems and focus on points of common solutions.

For example, I have friends who are Atheist, Muslim, Jewish-Christian who do not agree with each other's religions and never will. But they agree on peace and justice, and just focus on steps to take they do agree on.

And that's enough.

When people quit thinking and fearing that to work on common solutions means to compromise one's views for the "other side" maybe we can start finding and taking those steps we can agree will work to fix problems.

So the hardest part is overcoming the fear of manipulation or compromise.
Why not just accept the fact we have differences and find where we agree DESPITE those.

Those few areas are enough to keep us plenty busy and solve the key root of most problems.
We don't want corruption and abuse/waste of govt power, policy and taxdollars.

If we agree on solutions, we can agree to invest there either publicly or privately whatever works best.
if we do not agree, we can agree to build privately, just like religions practice separate ways and don't
have to compete to make one way the only right way for everyone else, to each his own, and you just
practice and develop the community and culture around your way of doing things and let others have their way.

If we can even get that understanding in place, the rest can be worked out.

Everyone from every party I see, has solutions in different areas. Why not organize them all
and start taking on the tasks of troubleshooting and solving these problems and paying back taxpayers
for whatever abuse was going on. If there is no money to replace what was wasted, issue credits and work off the debts. If investors lend the money against the debt, let communities and businesses buy back local land and schools as collateral and invest in rebuilding localized govt that they have ownership in so there is not outside abuse going on by political groups exploiting and controlling others. Reward taxpayers for fixing govt ourselves by giving the option to lend or buy back districts against the debts owed to taxpayers for corruption and abuses.

All people want control and representation in whatever policies affect them, and want a choice if they are going to give power to other groups; nobody wants to be controlled or abused by some outside group they cannot check.

We set up mutual respect, regardless of people's political or religious views, and we can organize around each issue that needs to be resolved and get something done, instead of dividing and fighting each other wasting energy, time, attention and resources while our country is going downhill. instead of arguing who let the house catch on fire and burn, let's work on identifying the areas of the fires and put them out. We can figure out how to rebuild from there, but let's not argue while the house is burning down.

A great opportunity would have been when the Wall Street Protesters protested but then the corporate media started calling all those people slackers and hippies and takers.

Any question Wall Street fucked us?

Did you notice how quietly the corporate media was on this? Did you get the money they stole from you back? I didn't. I never will because I'm not in over my head on my mortgage thank god, but I still got fucked by these criminals. Did anyone go to jail? NOPE.

The truth behind the 17 billion Bank of America settlement MSNBC

“This historic resolution—the largest such settlement on record

The settlement’s $7 billion consumer relief package accompanies nearly $10 billion in fines, as well as a formal admission from the bank that it knowingly misled the government and the public about the value of toxic mortgage securities.

Key word KNOWINGLY! Us liberals were screaming at the righties in 2007 that not only did the bankers fuck us, they KNOWINGLY did it. I even think they did it on purpose. They got to renig on pensions, move jobs overseas, let employees go, use the crisis to push for tax breaks, break unions, etc. I could go on and on.

Anyways, notice the right argued with us. It was Freddy Macks fault they said. It was Harry Reeds fault. It was Nancy Pelosi. Then Obama took over, they gave him about a month and it was his fault.

And the GOP fought him every step of the way. And the dumb ass American people didn't show up in 2010 and the GOP were rewarded. And people won't show up this midterm and the GOP will be rewarded again.

The American people are stupid. This is why I try not to talk politics with them because they infuriate me. Even you because you want us to play nice with the enemy. Yes, the ENEMY. This is class warfare. They waged it and we're losing. But a lot of Americans are content to be losers. They still think they live in the greatest country on earth. Not anymore unless they are rich or upper middle class. If they are middle class, lower middle class or poor they could do better in Canada now a days. Sad but true. Want to be able to afford college and be able to retire with dignity? If you stay in America you better do real well. If you do not do REAL well then you'll have better luck in Canada or Australia with free healthcare. Right now healthcare and food are eating up the middle class' disposable income. That's what they buy things with and that is what they save for retirement.

Check out how much Americans are saving and how much they are in debt. PATHETIC!

All are sinners and prone to sins. There is none righteous, not even one. Our good deeds are like filthy rags.

 

[emilynghiem]

All are sinners and prone to sins. There is none righteous, not even one. Our good deeds are like filthy rags.

Dear Max: To those who do not understand this focus on human "sin" as separating "man from God"
I make an analogy with how we are all BIASED.

We will each love our families more than people we do not know.
There are some people and groups we will never understand the way God does.

So compared with God's universal knowledge and understanding of man, both collectively and individually,
our knowledge and compassion for others is still limited.

I understand God's love is greater, and able to overcome all these faults and limitations.

One difference I see between you and me,
is that you still look at things in terms of going to hell
and I look at them as all "being used for God's purpose" to get to heaven.

See Romans 8:28 that all things can be used for good
for those who love the Lord and live by his purposes.

So if the purpose of Christ Jesus is to SAVE the world not condemn it,
then those who love God can use all things to achieve THAT goal.

That will of God is greater than the obstacles to stop it that
can only go so far. Eventually man has to give up these ways
that come to an end because human ways are FINITE.

God's will, grace, truth and love are INFINITE.
So in the end, the Good that is Infinite and Eternal
outlasts the evil that cannot withstand in the presence of God.
The memory and lessons from it can last as part of God's truth,
but the experience of it will be no more.

somehow I do not teach this the same as the
forms of "universal atonement" you and I have both seen before
which tend to diminish hell and not work out the process of NOT going there.

The Jehovah's Witness teach there is no hell, and some
universal salvation teachings act like hell is not real instead
of teaching that it is, and the point of the Salvation process is NOT going there!

MG I will start a thread to discuss with you the Salvation process
of reaching out to all people. I believe in inclusion but understand
you still fear this mean diluting the process instead of teaching it consistently.

This is not about changing or distorting the rules to fit more people in, but teaching
the universal laws already in place where all people can understand it is natural.
I want to make sure you and I especially are on the same page.
And hope Irishram, Jeremiah, GISMYS and others will join in.
As for others from the Atheist discussions, I trust that sealybobo, PratchettFan, Asaratis,
Derideo_Te will join in giving their honest feedback if we are making or missing the points.
And Hollie and Huggy, maybe even Luddly Neddite will let us know if the explanations
and descriptions of the Salvation and spiritual healing process makes sense to them in secular terms.

Thanks, Max!

 

[MaxGrit]

All are sinners and prone to sins. There is none righteous, not even one. Our good deeds are like filthy rags.

Dear Max: To those who do not understand this focus on human "sin" as separating "man from God"
I make an analogy with how we are all BIASED.

We will each love our families more than people we do not know.
There are some people and groups we will never understand the way God does.

So compared with God's universal knowledge and understanding of man, both collectively and individually,
our knowledge and compassion for others is still limited.

I understand God's love is greater, and able to overcome all these faults and limitations.

One difference I see between you and me,
is that you still look at things in terms of going to hell
and I look at them as all "being used for God's purpose" to get to heaven.

See Romans 8:28 that all things can be used for good
for those who love the Lord and live by his purposes.

So if the purpose of Christ Jesus is to SAVE the world not condemn it,
then those who love God can use all things to achieve THAT goal.

That will of God is greater than the obstacles to stop it that
can only go so far. Eventually man has to give up these ways
that come to an end because human ways are FINITE.

God's will, grace, truth and love are INFINITE.
So in the end, the Good that is Infinite and Eternal
outlasts the evil that cannot withstand in the presence of God.
The memory and lessons from it can last as part of God's truth,
but the experience of it will be no more.

somehow I do not teach this the same as the
forms of "universal atonement" you and I have both seen before
which tend to diminish hell and not work out the process of NOT going there.

The Jehovah's Witness teach there is no hell, and some
universal salvation teachings act like hell is not real instead
of teaching that it is, and the point of the Salvation process is NOT going there!

MG I will start a thread to discuss with you the Salvation process
of reaching out to all people. I believe in inclusion but understand
you still fear this mean diluting the process instead of teaching it consistently.

This is not about changing or distorting the rules to fit more people in, but teaching
the universal laws already in place where all people can understand it is natural.
I want to make sure you and I especially are on the same page.
And hope Irishram, Jeremiah, GISMYS and others will join in.
As for others from the Atheist discussions, I trust that sealybobo, PratchettFan, Asaratis,
Derideo_Te will join in giving their honest feedback if we are making or missing the points.
And Hollie and Huggy, maybe even Luddly Neddite will let us know if the explanations
and descriptions of the Salvation and spiritual healing process makes sense to them in secular terms.

Thanks, Max!

Sorry Emily I can't agree with you. I look at people and love all. All are forgiven and there is no hatred. This is in accordance with the Holy Spirit indwelling. The Saints eventually understand and think this as well. One example is Lincoln when he stated truthfully, "With malice toward none, with charity for all . . ."

God wants me to teach others, by the Holy Spirit of Truth, the Word of God, who is revealed in the Bible. My teacher and guide is God the Holy Spirit. Thus for me to live is Christ, to die is gain.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry Emily. The reason I don't worry so much about bias is because my teacher is the Holy Spirit.

God wants me to teach others, by the Holy Spirit of Truth, the Word of God, who is revealed in the Bible.

the point remains, since only Jesus is perfectly righteous as the one Mediator between God and man,
the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

so MG what this means is
if people reject you for not reaching them, that is not for us to judge.
It could be we are not the messenger meant to reach them at that time.

So it is even more important not to judge or fear if someone doesn't get the understanding from us.

Neither you nor I are going to reach all people as only Christ Jesus can connect universally.

We can agree with each other in Christ, and through God's will is the spirit multiplied.

Max I think if you understand this theist/nontheist bias in language,
then you will understand how God's truth is even greater than what we can symbolize in words.

We are not to reject each other for having a cultural bias.
We need to understand and share the message independent of our personal biases we attach
and not let that become a condition on Grace to judge as a barrier. God's love and truth overcomes all barriers.
The truth of God is immutable and remains the same.

What changes is our perception of God's truth grows bigger and closer to seeing the larger picture coming to life.
God's truth is not changed but is received by more people who come to understand God from their own life experiences.
So the bias on their understanding will be different from ours who came to understand God from our own path in life.

it's still God's truth and does not change. but our language and understanding is limited to our human bias
because we are finite, while God's truth is infinite.

 

[MaxGrit]

Who am I to judge? I let God be the judge. I was only given authority to teach others truths from the Holy Spirit.

I can learn and know with absolute certainty what is true vs. what is false as revealed in the Word of God.

 

[MaxGrit]

Does that make sense to you Emily?

There can be no compromise because the Holy Spirit is in charge. The truth from God is the truth.

That's why certain truths, I state that the Holy Spirit will be the witness of them.

 

[MaxGrit]

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

 

[emilynghiem]

Does that make sense to you Emily?

There can be no compromise because the Holy Spirit is in charge. The truth from God is the truth.

That's why certain truths, I state that the Holy Spirit will be the witness of them.

Great we agree. So why worry that I am listening to "false prophets"
even the false things will be corrected in the process of establishing God'ls truth
just as you described

in that case, we should DEFINITELY invite these others to join the process
so they may benefit from corrections we establish

that makes it more important to get the basic points down,
so we can share with others. pls see other thread on
how to explain the three stages of salvation in secular terms.
can we agree on those. or what needs to be clarified.

 

[MaxGrit]

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Acts 1:2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Acts 13:9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him

 

[MaxGrit]

Salvation:

The Golden Chain
The Golden Chain Reformed Bible Studies Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (v. 30)
- Romans 8

After describing our struggle with the flesh after conversion (Rom. 7), Paul in Romans 8 talks about some of the benefits that result from our justification. This chapter is well-known for its description of life in the Spirit and its discussion of the ordo salutis — the order of salvation (vv. 28–30).

Although Paul does not deal with sanctification per se, he does include God’s work of conforming us to His Son in his golden chain (v. 29). Note also that our adoption as joint-heirs with the Savior (8:14–17) is the starting point for Paul’s initial foray into predestination and election in the ordo salutis (vv. 28–30) and his detailed presentation of these topics in chapters 9–11. We may try to look at election in a manner unconnected from practical realities, but Scripture locates this doctrine in the Father’s great love for His people, a love that moved Him to make us His children. Divine election is preached wrongly if it is not preached as a comfort to believers and as a call to reflect God’s glory. It grounds our hope in God’s working all things together for good for those who love Him (v. 28).

As Dr. Sproul tell us, all Christians believe in some form of predestination because Romans 8:28–30 and other passages (Mal. 1:2–3; Eph. 1:11–12) teach that God has chosen some people for salvation. The question is, upon what basis does He make His choice? Does the Lord “look down the corridors of time” and then choose those whom He knows in advance will respond to the gospel? Or, does He set His special, salvific love on some, a love that guarantees that they will trust Christ? Much could be said in response, but most important is the fact that divine foreknowledge as taught in Scripture has to do with the Father’s decision to set His affection upon His elect. God’s foreknowledge certainly includes His knowledge of how a person will act, but to be known by God (Gal. 4:9) means primarily to be loved by Him in a special way. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19), and God’s particular love leads particular people to follow Jesus. A future decision of ours is not the basis upon which our Creator loves us. He loved us first, otherwise we would never love Him.

Coram Deo

That God decided to save His people gives us confidence that “neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38–39). If you trust Christ and feel discouraged this day, be comforted in your knowledge that the Lord has you in His hand and will never let you go.

 

[MaxGrit]

Does that make sense to you Emily?

There can be no compromise because the Holy Spirit is in charge. The truth from God is the truth.

That's why certain truths, I state that the Holy Spirit will be the witness of them.

Great we agree. So why worry that I am listening to "false prophets"

I didn't say I was worried about learning other's false teachings. I said it's impossible for me to compromise on truth.

It is because all truths regarding doctrines are as inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Word, and in the Bible.

(Can you compromise and say 2+2=5? Worry that you will learn 1+1=3?)

 

[MaxGrit]

Now I'm not saying that I am never wrong. A lot of what I write is me writing what I think.

However, what is inspired by the Holy Spirit is always true.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi MaxGrit:
What I mean is to mediate and represent God's truth PERFECTLY as in ALL INCLUSIVE.

Of course, through Christ, all of us can connect on that level.
All of us can present our part of the truth.

But none of us is "infinite" and able to fully represent God's truth in its full form which is "infinite."

We are finite and limited, do you agree?
Heck, I only speak English, how limited is that -- to just people who can
be reached using English, and in my lifetime which is limited as well.

None of us is perfectly righteous, only Christ.

Sorry this wasn't clear Max.

I just tried to explain this to another friend who thought the Bible was contradictory
by saying some people had seen or heard God, but other parts say NOBODY has seen God.

And I said it was BOTH.

NONE of us has seen God as in the whole.
But people HAVE seen and heard God in parts.

We are only finite and cannot contain the whole of God.

Only Jesus represents God's perfect will embodied without any
condition separating that will. The rest of us have biases and conditions.

Max why do you think you and I are even discussing this
trying to resolve what we both mean? Because my way of saying it
"isn't perfect so you misunderstood and thought I meant something else."

And your way of saying it isn't perfect either, because you are not saying
what I meant. We would agree if I had said it where you understood
I was saying the same thing you said that only God is perfect.

We can be perfect as in collectively as a WHOLE,
but each of us by ourselves is imperfect and needs to
be kept in check by others. We all help each other stay
in line with God's will which is perfect while we are not.

Hope this helps.

My friend did not understand how some people can see
God and yet no one has seen God.

Just like Justice. Some people have seen things that are Justice.
But nobody has seen Justice established in full for all humanity.
None of us has seen equal justice or there would be peace on earth right now.

We are still in process, and in the meantime we can see
Some Truth and Justice or some of God and Jesus revealed.

But for all people to see the whole thing, we'd all have to
receive in agreement at the same time. Hasn't happened yet.

Thanks Max!

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

 

[emilynghiem]

Does that make sense to you Emily?

There can be no compromise because the Holy Spirit is in charge. The truth from God is the truth.

That's why certain truths, I state that the Holy Spirit will be the witness of them.

Great we agree. So why worry that I am listening to "false prophets"

I didn't say I was worried about learning other's false teachings. I said it's impossible for me to compromise on truth.

It is because all truths regarding doctrines are as inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Word, and in the Bible.

(Can you compromise and say 2+2=5? Worry that you will learn 1+1=3?)

I was talking about when you implied I was listening to or following false doctrine.
Including all people does not mean including all ideas right or wrong and calling it done.
It means to sort through all that, but without leaving people out of the process.

Max you remind me of my Atheist friend Daron
who no matter what I say tries to find fault with it.

Just makes a point of trying to make the other person wrong
to justify defending oneself as right.

What I am trying to do is communicate points so BOTH people can
agree what is right.

And you and Daron have this same habit of trying to
make what I say to be "conflicting" somehow.

So how are you any different from an Atheist who does that?

If you and I focused on what is the RIGHT idea behind what
you and I are both trying to say, this is what I am trying to
demonstrate to Atheists. We can stick to what we agree is RIGHT
instead of harping on some wrongful interpretation of what I
just said to make it wrong, when that is NOT what I meant.

It's funny that both you and he do not have faith that
truth can be established in Christ.

That's all I was trying to say, and you keep trying to find something wrong or false
in the idea of correcting all errors so truth can be established in the spirit of Christ.

I do have faith that all wrongs and errors can be corrected.

I'm sorry you do not share that faith, Max.
I thought you did since you asked to reach out to Atheists.

But you seem to think you already know
and think the problem is just on the other side.

So that is where you are missing the greater process.
Sorry I fail to explain this to you, and each time I try
you think I am pushing something false outside of Christ.

The whole point IS to reconcile in truth, not go off on some erroneous tangent
to falsify a fake agreement: that would not be truth because it is conflicting.

So I can see we are both saying the same thing
You keep repeating it.

What I don't get is why you don't think I am speaking in agreement
but you keep misinterpreting what I say as tolerating false things.

So that's what I don't get.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Max: Where does any of this description below
talk about "spiritual healing" and how forgiveness opens us to receive divine truth grace and peace.

Where or how would you describe how FORGIVENESS transforms
the body mind and relationships to be "made new in Christ."

that is the universal process that I focus on that is common
to both secular nontheists and theist believers.

Can you tell me how you would either use your own words,
or cite the Bible or other sources to teach Forgiveness in Christ
as bringing Healing Grace by the Holy Spirit?

Salvation:

The Golden Chain
The Golden Chain Reformed Bible Studies Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (v. 30)
- Romans 8

After describing our struggle with the flesh after conversion (Rom. 7), Paul in Romans 8 talks about some of the benefits that result from our justification. This chapter is well-known for its description of life in the Spirit and its discussion of the ordo salutis — the order of salvation (vv. 28–30).

Although Paul does not deal with sanctification per se, he does include God’s work of conforming us to His Son in his golden chain (v. 29). Note also that our adoption as joint-heirs with the Savior (8:14–17) is the starting point for Paul’s initial foray into predestination and election in the ordo salutis (vv. 28–30) and his detailed presentation of these topics in chapters 9–11. We may try to look at election in a manner unconnected from practical realities, but Scripture locates this doctrine in the Father’s great love for His people, a love that moved Him to make us His children. Divine election is preached wrongly if it is not preached as a comfort to believers and as a call to reflect God’s glory. It grounds our hope in God’s working all things together for good for those who love Him (v. 28).

As Dr. Sproul tell us, all Christians believe in some form of predestination because Romans 8:28–30 and other passages (Mal. 1:2–3; Eph. 1:11–12) teach that God has chosen some people for salvation. The question is, upon what basis does He make His choice? Does the Lord “look down the corridors of time” and then choose those whom He knows in advance will respond to the gospel? Or, does He set His special, salvific love on some, a love that guarantees that they will trust Christ? Much could be said in response, but most important is the fact that divine foreknowledge as taught in Scripture has to do with the Father’s decision to set His affection upon His elect. God’s foreknowledge certainly includes His knowledge of how a person will act, but to be known by God (Gal. 4:9) means primarily to be loved by Him in a special way. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19), and God’s particular love leads particular people to follow Jesus. A future decision of ours is not the basis upon which our Creator loves us. He loved us first, otherwise we would never love Him.

Coram Deo

That God decided to save His people gives us confidence that “neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38–39). If you trust Christ and feel discouraged this day, be comforted in your knowledge that the Lord has you in His hand and will never let you go.

 

[RKMBrown]

Hi MaxGrit:
What I mean is to mediate and represent God's truth PERFECTLY as in ALL INCLUSIVE.

Of course, through Christ, all of us can connect on that level.
All of us can present our part of the truth.

But none of us is "infinite" and able to fully represent God's truth in its full form which is "infinite."

We are finite and limited, do you agree?
Heck, I only speak English, how limited is that -- to just people who can
be reached using English, and in my lifetime which is limited as well.

None of us is perfectly righteous, only Christ.

Sorry this wasn't clear Max.

I just tried to explain this to another friend who thought the Bible was contradictory
by saying some people had seen or heard God, but other parts say NOBODY has seen God.

And I said it was BOTH.

NONE of us has seen God as in the whole.
But people HAVE seen and heard God in parts.

We are only finite and cannot contain the whole of God.

Only Jesus represents God's perfect will embodied without any
condition separating that will. The rest of us have biases and conditions.

Max why do you think you and I are even discussing this
trying to resolve what we both mean? Because my way of saying it
"isn't perfect so you misunderstood and thought I meant something else."

And your way of saying it isn't perfect either, because you are not saying
what I meant. We would agree if I had said it where you understood
I was saying the same thing you said that only God is perfect.

We can be perfect as in collectively as a WHOLE,
but each of us by ourselves is imperfect and needs to
be kept in check by others. We all help each other stay
in line with God's will which is perfect while we are not.

Hope this helps.

My friend did not understand how some people can see
God and yet no one has seen God.

Just like Justice. Some people have seen things that are Justice.
But nobody has seen Justice established in full for all humanity.
None of us has seen equal justice or there would be peace on earth right now.

We are still in process, and in the meantime we can see
Some Truth and Justice or some of God and Jesus revealed.

But for all people to see the whole thing, we'd all have to
receive in agreement at the same time. Hasn't happened yet.

Thanks Max!

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I disagree.. I've seen god many times. When I looked into my babies eyes the first time... I saw god. When I saw my wife walking down the aisle... I saw god. When I look to the heavens I see god. ....

 

[emilynghiem]

YES I AGREE!
What I am saying is when ALL people agree we all see and experience God
then we ALL see God in full. So the point is to reach that agreement where
we ALL understand we are talking about the same thing. Each of us sees
part.

Hi MaxGrit:
What I mean is to mediate and represent God's truth PERFECTLY as in ALL INCLUSIVE.

Of course, through Christ, all of us can connect on that level.
All of us can present our part of the truth.

But none of us is "infinite" and able to fully represent God's truth in its full form which is "infinite."

We are finite and limited, do you agree?
Heck, I only speak English, how limited is that -- to just people who can
be reached using English, and in my lifetime which is limited as well.

None of us is perfectly righteous, only Christ.

Sorry this wasn't clear Max.

I just tried to explain this to another friend who thought the Bible was contradictory
by saying some people had seen or heard God, but other parts say NOBODY has seen God.

And I said it was BOTH.

NONE of us has seen God as in the whole.
But people HAVE seen and heard God in parts.

We are only finite and cannot contain the whole of God.

Only Jesus represents God's perfect will embodied without any
condition separating that will. The rest of us have biases and conditions.

Max why do you think you and I are even discussing this
trying to resolve what we both mean? Because my way of saying it
"isn't perfect so you misunderstood and thought I meant something else."

And your way of saying it isn't perfect either, because you are not saying
what I meant. We would agree if I had said it where you understood
I was saying the same thing you said that only God is perfect.

We can be perfect as in collectively as a WHOLE,
but each of us by ourselves is imperfect and needs to
be kept in check by others. We all help each other stay
in line with God's will which is perfect while we are not.

Hope this helps.

My friend did not understand how some people can see
God and yet no one has seen God.

Just like Justice. Some people have seen things that are Justice.
But nobody has seen Justice established in full for all humanity.
None of us has seen equal justice or there would be peace on earth right now.

We are still in process, and in the meantime we can see
Some Truth and Justice or some of God and Jesus revealed.

But for all people to see the whole thing, we'd all have to
receive in agreement at the same time. Hasn't happened yet.

Thanks Max!

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I disagree.. I've seen god many times. When I looked into my babies eyes the first time... I saw god. When I saw my wife walking down the aisle... I saw god. When I look to the heavens I see god. ....

 

[RKMBrown]

YES I AGREE!
What I am saying is when ALL people agree we all see and experience God
then we ALL see God in full. So the point is to reach that agreement where
we ALL understand we are talking about the same thing. Each of us sees
part.

Hi MaxGrit:
What I mean is to mediate and represent God's truth PERFECTLY as in ALL INCLUSIVE.

Of course, through Christ, all of us can connect on that level.
All of us can present our part of the truth.

But none of us is "infinite" and able to fully represent God's truth in its full form which is "infinite."

We are finite and limited, do you agree?
Heck, I only speak English, how limited is that -- to just people who can
be reached using English, and in my lifetime which is limited as well.

None of us is perfectly righteous, only Christ.

Sorry this wasn't clear Max.

I just tried to explain this to another friend who thought the Bible was contradictory
by saying some people had seen or heard God, but other parts say NOBODY has seen God.

And I said it was BOTH.

NONE of us has seen God as in the whole.
But people HAVE seen and heard God in parts.

We are only finite and cannot contain the whole of God.

Only Jesus represents God's perfect will embodied without any
condition separating that will. The rest of us have biases and conditions.

Max why do you think you and I are even discussing this
trying to resolve what we both mean? Because my way of saying it
"isn't perfect so you misunderstood and thought I meant something else."

And your way of saying it isn't perfect either, because you are not saying
what I meant. We would agree if I had said it where you understood
I was saying the same thing you said that only God is perfect.

We can be perfect as in collectively as a WHOLE,
but each of us by ourselves is imperfect and needs to
be kept in check by others. We all help each other stay
in line with God's will which is perfect while we are not.

Hope this helps.

My friend did not understand how some people can see
God and yet no one has seen God.

Just like Justice. Some people have seen things that are Justice.
But nobody has seen Justice established in full for all humanity.
None of us has seen equal justice or there would be peace on earth right now.

We are still in process, and in the meantime we can see
Some Truth and Justice or some of God and Jesus revealed.

But for all people to see the whole thing, we'd all have to
receive in agreement at the same time. Hasn't happened yet.

Thanks Max!

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I disagree.. I've seen god many times. When I looked into my babies eyes the first time... I saw god. When I saw my wife walking down the aisle... I saw god. When I look to the heavens I see god. ....

It's hard to have a conversation about such topics when everyone has a completely different set of definitions for the words used in the conversation. In my experience the people who don't believe in god, define god in terms that support that belief.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes, so why not allow everyone to have their own language.
Why this push to insist that everyone has to say it the same way.

I think once we get that the spirit and meaning is one in harmony
or at least complementary (God as Love is not the same as God as Wisdom
or God as Source of Life) and all connect to the same Source,
then maybe we don't have to nitpick and can be at peace with
the different ways people express the same God.

The Christians I know who worry about inclusion is they don't
want people "making up" things that aren't saying the same things.

So they seem to fear it means letting some kids say 2+2=6 because
they are using 6 to mean 4. We do have to agree on the symbolism
where it otherwise causes confusion. If we get the concepts and
principles to align, the language will follow and take care of itself.

Get the spirit of agreement first, then the letter follows.
And yes, the language can get as diverse as there are souls on the planet.

YES I AGREE!
What I am saying is when ALL people agree we all see and experience God
then we ALL see God in full. So the point is to reach that agreement where
we ALL understand we are talking about the same thing. Each of us sees
part.

Hi MaxGrit:
What I mean is to mediate and represent God's truth PERFECTLY as in ALL INCLUSIVE.

Of course, through Christ, all of us can connect on that level.
All of us can present our part of the truth.

But none of us is "infinite" and able to fully represent God's truth in its full form which is "infinite."

We are finite and limited, do you agree?
Heck, I only speak English, how limited is that -- to just people who can
be reached using English, and in my lifetime which is limited as well.

None of us is perfectly righteous, only Christ.

Sorry this wasn't clear Max.

I just tried to explain this to another friend who thought the Bible was contradictory
by saying some people had seen or heard God, but other parts say NOBODY has seen God.

And I said it was BOTH.

NONE of us has seen God as in the whole.
But people HAVE seen and heard God in parts.

We are only finite and cannot contain the whole of God.

Only Jesus represents God's perfect will embodied without any
condition separating that will. The rest of us have biases and conditions.

Max why do you think you and I are even discussing this
trying to resolve what we both mean? Because my way of saying it
"isn't perfect so you misunderstood and thought I meant something else."

And your way of saying it isn't perfect either, because you are not saying
what I meant. We would agree if I had said it where you understood
I was saying the same thing you said that only God is perfect.

We can be perfect as in collectively as a WHOLE,
but each of us by ourselves is imperfect and needs to
be kept in check by others. We all help each other stay
in line with God's will which is perfect while we are not.

Hope this helps.

My friend did not understand how some people can see
God and yet no one has seen God.

Just like Justice. Some people have seen things that are Justice.
But nobody has seen Justice established in full for all humanity.
None of us has seen equal justice or there would be peace on earth right now.

We are still in process, and in the meantime we can see
Some Truth and Justice or some of God and Jesus revealed.

But for all people to see the whole thing, we'd all have to
receive in agreement at the same time. Hasn't happened yet.

Thanks Max!

the rest of us will have a BIAS when addressing others. Only Jesus can speak for God directly.

This is the concept you have wrong, Emily. It is not true that only Jesus can speak for God directly.

God is the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One in essence, three in persons.

All three persons speak as God. The Holy Spirit speak as God.

Jesus taught the same truth to the apostles.

John 14 (ESV)

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I disagree.. I've seen god many times. When I looked into my babies eyes the first time... I saw god. When I saw my wife walking down the aisle... I saw god. When I look to the heavens I see god. ....

It's hard to have a conversation about such topics when everyone has a completely different set of definitions for the words used in the conversation. In my experience the people who don't believe in god, define god in terms that support that belief.