Who's Responsible

[CrotchetyGeezer]

To use a real-life event which occurred in my life, I'll pose a hypothetical question.

About ten or fifteen years ago my brother loaned me his car because my car had broken down and I didn't have the money at that time to get it fixed immediately but, I needed transportation. I had a bad habit of leaving my keys in the car and one morning I got up to find the car had been stolen. Later that day, the police contacted my brother, who was the one who reported it stolen, to say they had found the car on the front lawn of a local elementary school abandoned and unharmed. Apparently someone had just taken it for a joy ride, finally got bored and just left it on the front lawn of the elementary school with the doors left wide open.

Now, lets says these people who stole the car got in an accident or intentionally ran it into the school building and killed and/or injured several children. Should my brother, or even I for that matter, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired? And, more importantly, should all car owners, the automobile industry and special interest groups lobbying on behalf of the automobile industry, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired?

 

[BallsBrunswick]

Adam Lanza.

 

[Politico]

Seeing as you were too lazy to take the damn keys yes I would hold you responsible.

 

[OKTexas]

Technically you could be held responsible because you enabled the crime by leaving the keys in the car. The legal theory is the same as DUI by consent. If you loan a car to a person who is arrested for DUI, you can also be charged with DUI by consent for enabling that person to drive your car. But legally the other entities could not be held responsible.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Seeing as you were too lazy to take the damn keys yes I would hold you responsible.

Had nothing to do with being too lazy to take the "damn keys". It was a habit I acquired from my dad who lived in the boondocks basically and didn't have to worry about whether or not he left his keys in his vehicle. Further, even if I was too lazy to remove the keys? How does that make me responsible? I didn't intentionally leave the keys in there so some hoodlum could steal my car. And, I have an expectation that some hoodlum WON'T steal my car. I shouldn't have to worry about whether or not I'm too lazy to remove the keys from my car. And, if some chump steals my car, it's upon him/her for breaking the law, in stealing my car. It's not against the law for me to leave my keys in the car and I'm violating no law in doing so. This is tantamount to blaming some woman for getting raped because she was dressed provocatively, by claiming if she wouldn't have dressed that way, she wouldn't have been raped.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Technically you could be held responsible because you enabled the crime by leaving the keys in the car. The legal theory is the same as DUI by consent. If you loan a car to a person who is arrested for DUI, you can also be charged with DUI by consent for enabling that person to drive your car. But legally the other entities could not be held responsible.

And that's pure and simple crap. If I intentionally left the keys in the car so someone could steal it and encouraged the thief to steal it, then yes, I would feel I should be held responsible. However, if it was out of habit or an expectation that no one is going to steal my car? I don't think it would be appropriate to hold me responsible. It's not illegal to leave one's keys in their car and one has an expectation that their property is safe from thieves or other miscreants. That would be like holding you responsible for graffiti because you built a wall you knew would be painted on by graffiti artists. Or, holding you responsible for an accident which was in no way your fault because you knew there was a possibility you could be in an accident and, yet, you drove anyway.

 

[Politico]

You know why it's your fault. It's clear you just started the thread for an ulterior motive or just to argue.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Adam Lanza. Nancy Lanza was complicit. The NRA and the GOP were also complicit.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

You know why it's your fault. It's clear you just started the thread for an ulterior motive or just to argue.

I started the thread to try and get a logical answer out of some of the idiots on this board and in doing so, perhaps compel some to actually think and use a little common sense. And, how would it have been my fault...again?

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Adam Lanza. Nancy Lanza was complicit. The NRA and the GOP were also complicit.

Yeah, like the AAA and GOP would have been complicit if those who stole the car would have gotten in an accident or otherwise injured or killed someone in stealing the car...huh? What a stupid philosophy you have. And, Nancy Lanza was only complicit insofar as in the manner in which she raised her child and allowing him to use guns when she knew he wasn't right in the head. Had it been merely a matter of her leaving the guns out in the open to where they could be stolen, on her own property, I don't think she would have been complicit. Negligent...maybe? But not complicit.

 

[OKTexas]

Technically you could be held responsible because you enabled the crime by leaving the keys in the car. The legal theory is the same as DUI by consent. If you loan a car to a person who is arrested for DUI, you can also be charged with DUI by consent for enabling that person to drive your car. But legally the other entities could not be held responsible.

And that's pure and simple crap. If I intentionally left the keys in the car so someone could steal it and encouraged the thief to steal it, then yes, I would feel I should be held responsible. However, if it was out of habit or an expectation that no one is going to steal my car? I don't think it would be appropriate to hold me responsible. It's not illegal to leave one's keys in their car and one has an expectation that their property is safe from thieves or other miscreants. That would be like holding you responsible for graffiti because you built a wall you knew would be painted on by graffiti artists. Or, holding you responsible for an accident which was in no way your fault because you knew there was a possibility you could be in an accident and, yet, you drove anyway.

You might want to check the laws in your area, many jurisdictions have laws concerning securing a vehicle. There was a post here recently where a woman was ticketed for leaving a window down in Canada, they consider that as unsecured. fortunately the officer voided the ticket after some discussion. Also I know for a fact that failure to secure a vehicle on a US military installation can get you a federal ticket.

 

[Politico]

You might want to check the laws in your area, many jurisdictions have laws concerning securing a vehicle.

It's called leaving a vehicle unattended. I have been on the receiving end of that one. I left the keys in the ignition at a convenience store. When I came out I got in the car and they were gone. Then I looked to my left and there is a cop standing by my window swinging the keys on his finger. He said son I could charge you for this. What if someone had driven this thing away and robbed a bank?

So yes there are statutes on it and yes your expectations are irrelevant.

 

[Toronado3800]

To use a real-life event which occurred in my life, I'll pose a hypothetical question.

About ten or fifteen years ago my brother loaned me his car because my car had broken down and I didn't have the money at that time to get it fixed immediately but, I needed transportation. I had a bad habit of leaving my keys in the car and one morning I got up to find the car had been stolen. Later that day, the police contacted my brother, who was the one who reported it stolen, to say they had found the car on the front lawn of a local elementary school abandoned and unharmed. Apparently someone had just taken it for a joy ride, finally got bored and just left it on the front lawn of the elementary school with the doors left wide open.

Now, lets says these people who stole the car got in an accident or intentionally ran it into the school building and killed and/or injured several children. Should my brother, or even I for that matter, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired? And, more importantly, should all car owners, the automobile industry and special interest groups lobbying on behalf of the automobile industry, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired?

I say the responsibility is split.

If you borrow my car and leave it parked someplace keys in it for some time and it gets stolen you are responsible to replace it for my benefit. I was nice to you, you do the best you can for me.

Are you responsible for any crimes done with the car? Not morally. Maybe legally if there are unattended vehicle laws in play. Idiot society. None the less, may as well keep the keys out of the ignition. Young children can work them.

Far as the gun analogy goes, I believe Winchester or whoever is not responsible for any shooting unless there is more to the story.

Thanks for the interesting read.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Technically you could be held responsible because you enabled the crime by leaving the keys in the car. The legal theory is the same as DUI by consent. If you loan a car to a person who is arrested for DUI, you can also be charged with DUI by consent for enabling that person to drive your car. But legally the other entities could not be held responsible.

And that's pure and simple crap. If I intentionally left the keys in the car so someone could steal it and encouraged the thief to steal it, then yes, I would feel I should be held responsible. However, if it was out of habit or an expectation that no one is going to steal my car? I don't think it would be appropriate to hold me responsible. It's not illegal to leave one's keys in their car and one has an expectation that their property is safe from thieves or other miscreants. That would be like holding you responsible for graffiti because you built a wall you knew would be painted on by graffiti artists. Or, holding you responsible for an accident which was in no way your fault because you knew there was a possibility you could be in an accident and, yet, you drove anyway.

You might want to check the laws in your area, many jurisdictions have laws concerning securing a vehicle. There was a post here recently where a woman was ticketed for leaving a window down in Canada, they consider that as unsecured. fortunately the officer voided the ticket after some discussion. Also I know for a fact that failure to secure a vehicle on a US military installation can get you a federal ticket.

Well, I'm not necessarily worried about checking the laws on it in my area at this point in time as this happened, as I said in the OP, ten or fifteen years ago. And, at that time, when the police found the car, neither me nor my brother faced any negative ramifications for leaving the keys in the car so, if it was against the law, they didn't say anything about it. And, I no longer make it a habit of leaving my keys in my car. However, if there are such laws today, again, I think it would be pure and simple crap. I shouldn't have to worry about leaving my keys in my car and if I do and it gets stolen it's no more my fault than it is the law's fault because he/she wasn't there to stop it.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

You might want to check the laws in your area, many jurisdictions have laws concerning securing a vehicle.

It's called leaving a vehicle unattended. I have been on the receiving end of that one. I left the keys in the ignition ay a convenience store. When I came out I got in the car and they were gone. Then I looked to my left and there is a cop standing by my window swinging the keys on his finger. He said son I could charge you for this. What if someone had driven this thing away and robbed a bank?

So yes there are statutes on it and yes your expectations are irrelevant.

Depends on how good of lawyer it is one has, on whether or not their expectations are irrelevant. Further, that's kind of a stupid law. Whether you leave the keys in it or not, if you went into the convenience store with your car parked in a parking spot at the store, it's left unattended. If someone hotwires your car, can you still then be charged with leaving your car unattended? :-/

 

[Pheonixops]

To use a real-life event which occurred in my life, I'll pose a hypothetical question.

About ten or fifteen years ago my brother loaned me his car because my car had broken down and I didn't have the money at that time to get it fixed immediately but, I needed transportation. I had a bad habit of leaving my keys in the car and one morning I got up to find the car had been stolen. Later that day, the police contacted my brother, who was the one who reported it stolen, to say they had found the car on the front lawn of a local elementary school abandoned and unharmed. Apparently someone had just taken it for a joy ride, finally got bored and just left it on the front lawn of the elementary school with the doors left wide open.

Now, lets says these people who stole the car got in an accident or intentionally ran it into the school building and killed and/or injured several children. Should my brother, or even I for that matter, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired? And, more importantly, should all car owners, the automobile industry and special interest groups lobbying on behalf of the automobile industry, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired?

In my opinion, the person who stole that car and created the subsequent acts and damages should be responsible. You should also be responsible for securing your brother's property and your brother should be the one collecting the damages and prosecuting the felon.

 

[hazlnut]

To use a real-life event which occurred in my life, I'll pose a hypothetical question.

About ten or fifteen years ago my brother loaned me his car because my car had broken down and I didn't have the money at that time to get it fixed immediately but, I needed transportation. I had a bad habit of leaving my keys in the car and one morning I got up to find the car had been stolen. Later that day, the police contacted my brother, who was the one who reported it stolen, to say they had found the car on the front lawn of a local elementary school abandoned and unharmed. Apparently someone had just taken it for a joy ride, finally got bored and just left it on the front lawn of the elementary school with the doors left wide open.

Now, lets says these people who stole the car got in an accident or intentionally ran it into the school building and killed and/or injured several children. Should my brother, or even I for that matter, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired? And, more importantly, should all car owners, the automobile industry and special interest groups lobbying on behalf of the automobile industry, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired?

Do you know what a false analogy is?

Here's an accurate analogy:

If your brother were mentally ill and you took steps to keep him inside and away from other people, but as he grew older, he got worse and dangerous. It became harder to control him and it was reasonable to believe he was capably of hurting others. However, you put off having him committed. You wanted him to be happy so you bought him guns and took him shooting. He continued to get worse and you continued to put off getting professional help.

Understand?

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

To use a real-life event which occurred in my life, I'll pose a hypothetical question.

About ten or fifteen years ago my brother loaned me his car because my car had broken down and I didn't have the money at that time to get it fixed immediately but, I needed transportation. I had a bad habit of leaving my keys in the car and one morning I got up to find the car had been stolen. Later that day, the police contacted my brother, who was the one who reported it stolen, to say they had found the car on the front lawn of a local elementary school abandoned and unharmed. Apparently someone had just taken it for a joy ride, finally got bored and just left it on the front lawn of the elementary school with the doors left wide open.

Now, lets says these people who stole the car got in an accident or intentionally ran it into the school building and killed and/or injured several children. Should my brother, or even I for that matter, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired? And, more importantly, should all car owners, the automobile industry and special interest groups lobbying on behalf of the automobile industry, have been held responsible had such a scenario transpired?

I say the responsibility is split.

If you borrow my car and leave it parked someplace keys in it for some time and it gets stolen you are responsible to replace it for my benefit. I was nice to you, you do the best you can for me.

Oh...I agree with you on this. Insofar as the responsibility between myself and my brother in dealing with replacement of the car, if he wouldn't have ultimately wound up getting his car back, I would feel obliged to somehow replace his car or otherwise compensate him for it. But, this wasn't the point of my OP, as to what issues would arise between myself and my brother if his car got stolen and who was responsible for replacing the car if he wouldn't have gotten it back.

Are you responsible for any crimes done with the car? Not morally. Maybe legally if there are unattended vehicle laws in play. Idiot society. None the less, may as well keep the keys out of the ignition. Young children can work them.

Yeah, common sense would say not to leave the keys in the car considering the society in which we live in this day in age. But, like I said, I didn't purposefully leave the keys in the car. My brother didn't even have any standing to complain to me that I left the keys in the car because he had a habit of doing the same thing. There had been times in which he had borrowed my car and he left the keys in my car. Only, my car had never gotten stolen from him.

Far as the gun analogy goes, I believe Winchester or whoever is not responsible for any shooting unless there is more to the story.

Agreed.

Thanks for the interesting read.

Yep.

 

[Antares]

Like the old guy you get more idiotic every time you type.

Adam Lanza. Nancy Lanza was complicit. The NRA and the GOP were also complicit.

 

[blackhawk]

You know why it's your fault. It's clear you just started the thread for an ulterior motive or just to argue.

I started the thread to try and get a logical answer out of some of the idiots on this board and in doing so, perhaps compel some to actually think and use a little common sense. And, how would it have been my fault...again?

Well hoping for a logical answer was your one mistake here that said leaving the keys in the car does not change the fact the person or persons taking knew it was theft.