Who Pays the Taxes? Who Should?

[Article 15]

Sticking ones head in the sand and pretending that all the problems are illusion no doubt brings comfort to some. And I will admit that many of our problems should be of absolutely no concern to the federal government. But how about we balance the federal budget and pay the bills before we all put on the rose colored glasses. Okay?

It was balanced.

Then the GOP mailed out rebate checks, used reconcilation to shove further tax cuts down our throats, and put a war of choice on the credit card.

 

[Claudette]

Yup, blame the people who follow the law instead of the flawed system. Sounds reasonable.

I agree that the system is flawed, Amy, but Claudette wasn't blaming the people. She WAS blaming a system that allows half of the people to suffer no consequences from tax increases,but having ability to vote for people who will raise other people's taxes but not theirs. That is fundamentally wrong on the face of it, and nothing good can possibly come from it.

Nonsense. She was throwing down the tired meme of half the nation being leeches on society.

Im sure she defends mitt romneys right to use loopholes to pay 9% in taxes, but when the poor use loopholes they must be "sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto. "

Nope. Sorry to dissapoint but my thoughts go to business as well. Get rid of the tax loopholes, tax breaks, subsidies and EIC. Let the Govt keep all of its tax dollars from all sources.

Half the nation, for whatever reason, Doesn't pay Fed taxes. They pay State and Local unless they are on Welfare. Then they pay nothing.

The Fed Govt runs on taxes. Why should half the country not have to pay Fed taxes?? Makes no sense to me.

As I said. If you have no skin in the game you don't care. As long as your needs are met you really could give a rats ass where "your" money comes from as long as it comes.

AS for Mitt and anyone who lives on Capital Gains?? Hell. Hope I have enough invested to do the same. The money has already been taxed once and will be again. The Govt gets its share of it big time.

 

[bripat9643]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

No, because that is NOT fair, by any definition. After all, we are talking about fair share.

Don't you think it is important that those who use the most resources, should be required to put some skin in the game?

Those "resources" don't belong to the federal government, so why should it collect anything based on their consumption? Furthermore, the rich already pay more since sales tax is a percentage, as are all excise taxes.

 

[RDD_1210]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

No, because that is NOT fair, by any definition. After all, we are talking about fair share.

Don't you think it is important that those who use the most resources, should be required to put some skin in the game?

So is federal income tax the only tax that matters?

 

[RDD_1210]

I agree that the system is flawed, Amy, but Claudette wasn't blaming the people. She WAS blaming a system that allows half of the people to suffer no consequences from tax increases,but having ability to vote for people who will raise other people's taxes but not theirs. That is fundamentally wrong on the face of it, and nothing good can possibly come from it.

Nonsense. She was throwing down the tired meme of half the nation being leeches on society.

Im sure she defends mitt romneys right to use loopholes to pay 9% in taxes, but when the poor use loopholes they must be "sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto. "

Nope. Sorry to dissapoint but my thoughts go to business as well. Get rid of the tax loopholes, tax breaks, subsidies and EIC. Let the Govt keep all of its tax dollars from all sources.

Half the nation, for whatever reason, Doesn't pay Fed taxes. They pay State and Local unless they are on Welfare. Then they pay nothing.

The Fed Govt runs on taxes. Why should half the country not have to pay Fed taxes?? Makes no sense to me.

As I said. If you have no skin in the game you don't care. As long as your needs are met you really could give a rats ass where "your" money comes from as long as it comes.

AS for Mitt and anyone who lives on Capital Gains?? Hell. Hope I have enough invested to do the same. The money has already been taxed once and will be again. The Govt gets its share of it big time.

I asked you this before and I don't think you answered. The whole "no skin in the game" argument is pretty funny.

So, let me ask again. Is Federal income tax the only tax that matters?

 

[Claudette]

Nonsense. She was throwing down the tired meme of half the nation being leeches on society.

Im sure she defends mitt romneys right to use loopholes to pay 9% in taxes, but when the poor use loopholes they must be "sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto. "

Nope. Sorry to dissapoint but my thoughts go to business as well. Get rid of the tax loopholes, tax breaks, subsidies and EIC. Let the Govt keep all of its tax dollars from all sources.

Half the nation, for whatever reason, Doesn't pay Fed taxes. They pay State and Local unless they are on Welfare. Then they pay nothing.

The Fed Govt runs on taxes. Why should half the country not have to pay Fed taxes?? Makes no sense to me.

As I said. If you have no skin in the game you don't care. As long as your needs are met you really could give a rats ass where "your" money comes from as long as it comes.

AS for Mitt and anyone who lives on Capital Gains?? Hell. Hope I have enough invested to do the same. The money has already been taxed once and will be again. The Govt gets its share of it big time.

I asked you this before and I don't think you answered. The whole "no skin in the game" argument is pretty funny.

So, let me ask again. Is Federal income tax the only tax that matters?

Nope.

Some of that 49% do pay State and Local but State and Local Taxes don't fund the Govt. STate and local taxes fund the State and municipalities.

In fact I think the State and Local taxes are far more important to me as an individual than the Fed Taxes. But the fact remains that the Govt beast has to be fed and everyone should be feeding it. Including that pesky 49%.

RD thats my opinion. Yours may differ and I respect your opinion but it ain't mine buddy and it never will be.

 

[JoeB131]

We had our greatest prosperity when the rich paid a top marginal rate of 93%, and a third of the workforce was unionized.

Simply put, when you make greed impractical, you limit its bad effects.

In 1980, the average CEO made 40 times what a line worker made.

Today the average CEO makes 478 times what a line worker makes.

Mitt Romney pays 14% tax rates on eight figures of income, and he didn't even claim all the deductions he was entitled to- yet. (He will after he loses the election.)

 

[editec]

Who Pays the Taxes?

Everybody

Who Should?

Same.

 

[Toro]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

Never in the history of the USA has there been a tax on wealth. Why do you think it necessary to start taxing wealth now? And how do you square that with property rights being included in our unalienable rights protected by the Constitution?

There has been taxes on wealth for decades. The estate tax is a wealth tax.

 

[Toro]

America has the most progressive tax rates in the world.

Of course, if the government lived within the Constitution, there would be no need for an income tax on anybody. Income is at best theft. Think about it and you'll realize forcing some men to labor on the behalf of others is slavery. I thought we outlawed that? No?

America does not have the most progressive tax rates in the world.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

So are you proposing a federal property tax?

Are you comfortable with the feds enumerating all of your possessions down to your last pair of embarrassingly stained boxers and then assessing tax on them?

 

[Toro]

How about we call all our "Free Trade" partners out on the carpet and DEMAND reciprocity and eliminate the damn near $1T yearly trade deficit that we have?

Perhaps if we weren't playing with one hand tied behind our backs, these tax threads wouldn't even need to exist.

I mean damn... we play fair....averaging about 1.3% tariffs on goods coming into our country.....and we can't sell most of our shit abroad because once you add their fees and tariffs...we can't compete.....

Or, maybe we should just charge their countries whatever rate they're charging us?

What do you recommend, specifically? More tariffs?

Can you back up your claim that the reason we import more than we export is "their fees and tariffs"? Could the cost to produce in America have something to do with it?

Oh...yeah. labor rates of.$.50-1.00/hr is huge too. I said the recommendations....either be reciprocal with us, or we will do the exact same thing you are doing with us....BTW, if it's the fist of production that's the issue, why do our trading partners charge us up to 35% where we charge the 1.3%

Is this some kind of foreign aid welfare package?

Except for a few high profile products, most American exports are not subject to tariffs.

 

[Toro]

Adam Smith - "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

Flat tax means regressive taxation, with the poor paying an even greater support for the rich.

So we have a flat tax which exempts the first $X in income. It could be the first $20,000 in income is exempt and all income is taxed at 20% thereafter.

 

[Toro]

People in all of the above brackets pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, and sin taxes. Why have you selected only income taxes to bitch about?

Sales taxes and sin taxes have nothing to do with the federal budget.

Everyone pays payroll taxes, but those revenues don't even come close to paying for the programs they are being taken out for. The federal budget is such that after you pay for all federal entitlement programs there is no money left. You have spent ALL federal revenues, not just payroll tax revenues, to cover Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

There is nothing left to pay for national defense, roads and bridges and schools, or food stamps.

That is why we are running in the red.

.

That's not quite true. The federal government can pay all entitlements. It can't pay all entitlements AND defense and interest on the debt in this economy.

 

[Toro]

One way to ‘see’ the distribution of wealth in the U.S. is to imagine a group of 100 people who have a $100 between them. Evenly distributed each would have one dollar of wealth. Alas, that is far from the actual distribution. According to the most recent study, Currents and Undercurrents, by the Survey of Consumer Finance wealth is distributed accordingly:

50 individuals at the bottom have a nickel. ($0.05 times 50 = $2.50)

The next 40 each have $0.70 of wealth (40 times $0.70 - $28.00).

The next 9 each have $4.00 of wealth (nine times $4.00 = $36.00)

The last richest individual has $33.40 (one time $33.40).



Read more: See the Distribution of Wealth in US (McCain, Obama, cost) - Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Third Parties, Left-Wing, Right-Wing, Congress, President - City-Data Forum


The response from our Republican Party is we obviously need to increase taxes on those Americans that have a nickel

Or as Mitt Romney would call them.....The 47%

Why are you bringing up wealth? There is no wealth tax, fool.

.

Why would you want to raise taxes on the 50% who only have five cents worth of wealth, while you fight to protect the 1% who have $33.40?

You go where the money is

Because those 50% are beneficiaries of the state, and it makes the tax code more unstable. California has perhaps the worst fiscal scheme among all the states whereby CA is highly dependent on the incomes of about 20k-30k people. That's the direction we are heading. Taxes will be raised, and most people will pay more, including on those who pay none now.

 

[catzmeow]

Because those of us who pay Federal Income tax have to pay the ones you've listed to. Maybe it would be fair if the people who pay FEDERAL Income tax were relieved of paying the ones you've mentioned above Would you go for that?

If you have to pay all of the above, I suspect you aren't living in poverty. If you're talking about a "family" income of $32k, that's 2 people earning just slightly above minimum wage or less. Those folks aren't rich, by any stretch of the imagination. I remember living on 24k a year with a small child...it was hard and we did without a lot. In fact, we sold a vehicle to scratch up $1k for a down payment for our extremely modest house a couple of years after that, and made do by sharing 1 car while both of us worked.

Question: Do willow and Foxfyre actually pay income taxes? I do, and I'm not bitching. In fact, I suspect I pay more in income tax each year than Willow and Foxfyre do.

It costs money to have roads and schools, to fight wars in the middle east, to have access to clean water and electric power, and to have well-trained police officers and firefighters and paramedics.

It is what it is. I consider myself fortunate to be able to have an income where I owe taxes, frankly. About 85% of Americans don't live as well as my family does, and we're certainly not wealthy.

This is an interesting chart, by the way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_Annual_Household_Income_in_the_United_States.png

I work with a lot of the working poor these days...You're talking about mothers who clean hotel rooms for a living and then go to a second job to make ends meet, and then go home dog tired to a crappy neighborhood to try and parent their children. It's a shitty and difficult life.

 

[edthecynic]

Your thread is pointless because you are only addressing one tax, the federal income tax. Until you include all taxes, anything you say is pretty much meaningless.

On the federal level, the income tax is the largest source of revenues. The next largest source is corporate tax. We can talk about how much the lower 50% pay in corporate taxes, too, if you wish.

Not quite! The 2 largest sources of federal revenue come from wage earners. Together wage earners pay 10 times the taxes of corporations.

Table 1 Sources of Federal Revenue (billions of 2003 dollars)
Capital gains tax 45
Corporate income tax 132
Individual income tax 794
Social Security taxes 713
Total revenues 1,782
Source: Historical Tables: Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005 (Washington, D.C: Government Printing Office, 2004), Table 2.1, p. 22. Capital Gains from CBO.
Note: Columns do not add because not all sources of federal revenue are shown.

 

[catzmeow]

My concern about the so-called "fair" consumption tax is that it would actually hurt American businesses more than the income tax on high earners does.

 

[edthecynic]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

Never in the history of the USA has there been a tax on wealth. Why do you think it necessary to start taxing wealth now? And how do you square that with property rights being included in our unalienable rights protected by the Constitution?

And that is the problem. The wealthy pay very little in taxes. You would start taxing them now because that is where the money is. And you have no property rights if the government decides to take your property by eminent domain, which has been found to be Constitutional by the SCOTUS.

The Truth About Taxes
August 6, 2007
RUSH: I've told you before: the income tax is designed to keep people like his [Buffett's] secretary from becoming wealthy! There is no "wealth" tax. So this is a big misnomer. ...
But there's no tax on wealth. There is a tax on income, and the tax on income is designed to keep everybody who is not wealthy from getting there.
I'm talking about genuine wealth, not the way Democrats define "rich."

 

[Skull Pilot]

We had our greatest prosperity when the rich paid a top marginal rate of 93%, and a third of the workforce was unionized.

Simply put, when you make greed impractical, you limit its bad effects.

In 1980, the average CEO made 40 times what a line worker made.

Today the average CEO makes 478 times what a line worker makes.

Mitt Romney pays 14% tax rates on eight figures of income, and he didn't even claim all the deductions he was entitled to- yet. (He will after he loses the election.)

You do know that when the so called rich were paying 90% in 1952 that the lowest tax bracket (those making 0 to $4000 a year) was over 20% don't you?

Of course you don't because you are a fucking partisan sheep hack.