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Great, maybe then you can help me explain that to Claudette, who I see is reading these posts because she just thanked your previous post, yet she doesn't want to respond to the facts that I've pointed out to her.
Yes you've pointed out some facts but you also don't seem to want to admit that we have loads of freeloaders in this country. Thats a fact as well.
Folks who pay for nothing but have no problem sucking up anything they can from the taxpayers of this country.
Those are the folks I have a problem with. They have no skin in the game and if they have their way they never will.
I've pointed out that 17% are the "free loaders who pay nothing", the rest of the "47%" you mentioned do in fact pay taxes. And I also showed who makes up that 17% who pay nothing. Mostly elderly and disabled. Are these the people you have a problem with and would like to discuss?
I thought about including the Fair Tax among the options, but so few undestand it and any form of value added tax administered by the federal government bothers me. How many of us are old enough to remember when there was no sales tax. But we didn't mind so much when a tiny sales tax was added to most products we buy because we didn't notice the small difference in prices so much. And we don't notice the quarter cent increments added on for the same reason. Until one day we realize that beginng half cent tax or whatever has grown to 8 cents to 10 cents or more on almost every dollar we spend. But I;m glad you brought it up under the 'other' option.
I shudder to think how a greedy Congress and federal bureaucracy with strong motives to use our money to increase their own personal power, influence, and wealth would find reasons to manipulate a fair tax system by granting so many deductions and exemptions and advantages to special interest groups that it would quickly become unrecognizable. I can see the tax code becoming more a nightmare than it already is not to mention incremental tax creep.
A flat tax system that would be applied uniformly across the entire population would be much more difficult to manipulate because every constituency would experience the effects of tax increases or tax reductions. And that is the way it should be in an honest and explicitly fair system.
Not all veterans receive benefits... and those are an EMPLOYMENT BENEFIT as part of contractual compensation... What next?? Obamalama himself is a receiver of a subsidy because he is employed by the Fed??
You are a goddamn idiot
We had our greatest prosperity when the rich paid a top marginal rate of 93%, and a third of the workforce was unionized.
Simply put, when you make greed impractical, you limit its bad effects.
In 1980, the average CEO made 40 times what a line worker made.
Today the average CEO makes 478 times what a line worker makes.
Mitt Romney pays 14% tax rates on eight figures of income, and he didn't even claim all the deductions he was entitled to- yet. (He will after he loses the election.)
You do know that when the so called rich were paying 90% in 1952 that the lowest tax bracket (those making 0 to $4000 a year) was over 20% don't you?
Of course you don't because you are a fucking partisan sheep hack.
That, and no one actually paid 90%.
Yes you've pointed out some facts but you also don't seem to want to admit that we have loads of freeloaders in this country. Thats a fact as well.
Folks who pay for nothing but have no problem sucking up anything they can from the taxpayers of this country.
Those are the folks I have a problem with. They have no skin in the game and if they have their way they never will.
I've pointed out that 17% are the "free loaders who pay nothing", the rest of the "47%" you mentioned do in fact pay taxes. And I also showed who makes up that 17% who pay nothing. Mostly elderly and disabled. Are these the people you have a problem with and would like to discuss?
BUT.. you do neglect to state that they in fact pay the very same 'other taxes' that everyone else also pays.. they are still getting a free ride on federal income tax which is wrong and by definition unequal treatment by government under law.. the only ones who should be paying zero are those who truly earn zero... You earn $1 or $1MIL is of no consequence, you earned something and you should be paying that tax on dollar 1 that you are paying on dollar 1000000001
I've pointed out that 17% are the "free loaders who pay nothing", the rest of the "47%" you mentioned do in fact pay taxes. And I also showed who makes up that 17% who pay nothing. Mostly elderly and disabled. Are these the people you have a problem with and would like to discuss?
BUT.. you do neglect to state that they in fact pay the very same 'other taxes' that everyone else also pays.. they are still getting a free ride on federal income tax which is wrong and by definition unequal treatment by government under law.. the only ones who should be paying zero are those who truly earn zero... You earn $1 or $1MIL is of no consequence, you earned something and you should be paying that tax on dollar 1 that you are paying on dollar 1000000001
Right, some people pay some taxes, some pay others. But the point is these people are not paying absolutely nothing as Claudette is trying to infer. Most of them in fact still contribute to a large chunk of the taxes that the government collects.
I know you're trying to steer the conversation to your absolute flat tax wet dream conversation, but let's try and stick to one topic at a time.
And the topic we were discussing is the fact that these people do, in fact, have "skin in the game".
I asked you this before and I don't think you answered. The whole "no skin in the game" argument is pretty funny.
So, let me ask again. Is Federal income tax the only tax that matters?
Nope.
Some of that 49% do pay State and Local but State and Local Taxes don't fund the Govt. STate and local taxes fund the State and municipalities.
In fact I think the State and Local taxes are far more important to me as an individual than the Fed Taxes. But the fact remains that the Govt beast has to be fed and everyone should be feeding it. Including that pesky 49%.
RD thats my opinion. Yours may differ and I respect your opinion but it ain't mine buddy and it never will be.
Do you think the Federal government is funded solely by income taxes? It's actually less than 50% funded by federal income taxes, which makes your focus on that single portion a rather limited and incorrect view of people and them having "no skin in the game".
You do realize that there are other taxes that people pay that fund the federal government, don't you?
BUT.. you do neglect to state that they in fact pay the very same 'other taxes' that everyone else also pays.. they are still getting a free ride on federal income tax which is wrong and by definition unequal treatment by government under law.. the only ones who should be paying zero are those who truly earn zero... You earn $1 or $1MIL is of no consequence, you earned something and you should be paying that tax on dollar 1 that you are paying on dollar 1000000001
Right, some people pay some taxes, some pay others. But the point is these people are not paying absolutely nothing as Claudette is trying to infer. Most of them in fact still contribute to a large chunk of the taxes that the government collects.
I know you're trying to steer the conversation to your absolute flat tax wet dream conversation, but let's try and stick to one topic at a time.
And the topic we were discussing is the fact that these people do, in fact, have "skin in the game".
But they do not have skin in the income tax game, which is the point... and I believe it was the point that Claudette was trying to make..
You are saying this like some pay tax I and some pay taxes P, S, and Z... when in fact some pay tax P, S, and Z and some pay I, P, S, and Z... it is not like those paying income tax are not paying the other taxes... it is bullshit to argue that because these people pay the 'other taxes' so it is ok that they do not pay income tax... and before you start, don't bring the bullshit subjective 'fairness' into it
You do know that when the so called rich were paying 90% in 1952 that the lowest tax bracket (those making 0 to $4000 a year) was over 20% don't you?
Of course you don't because you are a fucking partisan sheep hack.
That, and no one actually paid 90%.
That is true. The highest tax rate is lower now than it was then, but there are far fewer ways to deduct or shelter income now than there was then. And for that reason much less of the income is deducted or sheltered which actually increased the revenues to the treasury because the wealthy were punished less for using their money.
And this goes to the heart of the matter.
Are you so resentful and envious of the rich that you want them punished even though that punishment is a drag on the economy and reduces treasury revenues? (See why this is in the example provided in the OP.)
Or do you want a tax system that best encourages the private sector to prosper at all levels? (The same example supports this concept.)
That, and no one actually paid 90%.
That is true. The highest tax rate is lower now than it was then, but there are far fewer ways to deduct or shelter income now than there was then. And for that reason much less of the income is deducted or sheltered which actually increased the revenues to the treasury because the wealthy were punished less for using their money.
And this goes to the heart of the matter.
Are you so resentful and envious of the rich that you want them punished even though that punishment is a drag on the economy and reduces treasury revenues? (See why this is in the example provided in the OP.)
Or do you want a tax system that best encourages the private sector to prosper at all levels? (The same example supports this concept.)
There are also more bullshit deductions and refundable tax credits now than then
What I am inferring is they pay no Fed taxes.
Not no taxes at all. State and Local taxes are not Fed taxes.
BUT.. you do neglect to state that they in fact pay the very same 'other taxes' that everyone else also pays.. they are still getting a free ride on federal income tax which is wrong and by definition unequal treatment by government under law.. the only ones who should be paying zero are those who truly earn zero... You earn $1 or $1MIL is of no consequence, you earned something and you should be paying that tax on dollar 1 that you are paying on dollar 1000000001
Right, some people pay some taxes, some pay others. But the point is these people are not paying absolutely nothing as Claudette is trying to infer. Most of them in fact still contribute to a large chunk of the taxes that the government collects.
I know you're trying to steer the conversation to your absolute flat tax wet dream conversation, but let's try and stick to one topic at a time.
And the topic we were discussing is the fact that these people do, in fact, have "skin in the game".
But they do not have skin in the income tax game, which is the point... and I believe it was the point that Claudette was trying to make..
You are saying this like some pay tax I and some pay taxes P, S, and Z... when in fact some pay tax P, S, and Z and some pay I, P, S, and Z... it is not like those paying income tax are not paying the other taxes... it is bullshit to argue that because these people pay the 'other taxes' so it is ok that they do not pay income tax... and before you start, don't bring the bullshit subjective 'fairness' into it
What I am inferring is they pay no Fed taxes.
Not no taxes at all. State and Local taxes are not Fed taxes.
But I've shown you that they do in fact pay federal taxes. Did you ignore that part? Did it not make sense? I am not sure why you are refusing to understand this.
Remember before when I said you are unable to have a rational discussion? This is what I was talking about. When you are presented with facts, that you either refused to read of didn't have any disagreement with, you still revert back to your original statement which is blatantly false.
So whats the problem here with what we're discussing? Do you just not want to listen to the facts or do you not understand what they mean?
Right, some people pay some taxes, some pay others. But the point is these people are not paying absolutely nothing as Claudette is trying to infer. Most of them in fact still contribute to a large chunk of the taxes that the government collects.
I know you're trying to steer the conversation to your absolute flat tax wet dream conversation, but let's try and stick to one topic at a time.
And the topic we were discussing is the fact that these people do, in fact, have "skin in the game".
But they do not have skin in the income tax game, which is the point... and I believe it was the point that Claudette was trying to make..
You are saying this like some pay tax I and some pay taxes P, S, and Z... when in fact some pay tax P, S, and Z and some pay I, P, S, and Z... it is not like those paying income tax are not paying the other taxes... it is bullshit to argue that because these people pay the 'other taxes' so it is ok that they do not pay income tax... and before you start, don't bring the bullshit subjective 'fairness' into it
YES Finally. Jeeze.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.
I use that as my sigline
What I am inferring is they pay no Fed taxes.
Not no taxes at all. State and Local taxes are not Fed taxes.
But I've shown you that they do in fact pay federal taxes. Did you ignore that part? Did it not make sense? I am not sure why you are refusing to understand this.
Remember before when I said you are unable to have a rational discussion? This is what I was talking about. When you are presented with facts, that you either refused to read of didn't have any disagreement with, you still revert back to your original statement which is blatantly false.
So whats the problem here with what we're discussing? Do you just not want to listen to the facts or do you not understand what they mean?
And I showed you very clearly what taxes are being paid. Yes, those in the bottom 50% do pay payroll taxes at the exact same percentage as do the very rich. Both are considered to be contributing to their own retirement and Medicare funds when they do so, however, and theoretically that is not money to be used for anything other than retirement benefits and Medicare. Those in the bottom 50% are paying only a tiny percentage of all other taxes collected by the federal government and therefore have no inestment if all those other taxes are increased for everybody else.
And THAT is an unhealthy situation any way you look at it.
You can't be that stupid. There is a SS tax cut off at around $100,000 so the more you make over the cut off the lower your SS tax %. Furthermore capital gains tycoons pay NO SS tax on their capital gains and capital gains tycoons are the richest of the rich.What I am inferring is they pay no Fed taxes.
Not no taxes at all. State and Local taxes are not Fed taxes.
But I've shown you that they do in fact pay federal taxes. Did you ignore that part? Did it not make sense? I am not sure why you are refusing to understand this.
Remember before when I said you are unable to have a rational discussion? This is what I was talking about. When you are presented with facts, that you either refused to read of didn't have any disagreement with, you still revert back to your original statement which is blatantly false.
So whats the problem here with what we're discussing? Do you just not want to listen to the facts or do you not understand what they mean?
And I showed you very clearly what taxes are being paid. Yes, those in the bottom 50% do pay payroll taxes at the exact same percentage as do the very rich. Both are considered to be contributing to their own retirement and Medicare funds when they do so, however, and theoretically that is not money to be used for anything other than retirement benefits and Medicare. Those in the bottom 50% are paying only a tiny percentage of all other taxes collected by the federal government and therefore have no inestment if all those other taxes are increased for everybody else.
And THAT is an unhealthy situation any way you look at it.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.
I use that as my sigline
It sounds good at first reading, but it is pure nonsense. Capital exists, without labor, and always has. Capital is also natural resources, and they predated labor.
Too many people equate capital with money, but capital is just about everything in the production process that is not labor. Tools, machinery, raw materials, land, buildings, rolling stock, etc.
