Who Pays the Taxes? Who Should?

[Foxfyre]

I like The Fair Tax

Americans For Fair Taxation

That looks very interesting.

The only problem that I see with the Fair Tax is that the Congress would NEVER pass such a law. And I am one that used to say "never say never."

There aren't enough honest men and women in either party to relinquish the power they have over peoples lives with the current tax system.

A damned shame it is I say!

A Fair Tax definitely was a provocative idea and deserving of a close look. And I certainly can see merit to it. But I see much more opportunity with mischief, graft, corruption, and manipulation with a Fair Tax, most of which could not exist as easily with a simple flat tax.

 

[rightwinger]

There is no natural right to steal a mans wages in the form of taxes. That's pretty simple.

If you are a member of a society there is

I am not a member of anything I am an individual. You give a government the power to steal your money they get power hungry as we can see and decided to go further. I don't need a government to look over me I can manage just fine by myself...I can manage to buy everything I need and have the things I need without a bunch of idiots running things.

Oh, I forgot...."Libertarian"

You want all the benefits of society, but don't want to have to pay. That is why no country on earth is libertarian.........except for Somalia

 

[Dissent]

I will pay for what I need out of my pocket...private enterprise the lowest priced business gets the most folks to buy from them we don't need a government to control our lives for us..unfortunately there are those among us that are brainwashed to think sh and Somalia isn't Libertarian its in a war like state and has been for a long time. Militia's vs Militia's war lords vs war lords not even close to a Libertarian society.

 

[AmyNation]

I like The Fair Tax

Americans For Fair Taxation

That looks very interesting.

The only problem that I see with the Fair Tax is that the Congress would NEVER pass such a law. And I am one that used to say "never say never."

There aren't enough honest men and women in either party to relinquish the power they have over peoples lives with the current tax system.

A damned shame it is I say!

I feel the same about the flat tax.

 

[Too Tall]

I like The Fair Tax

Americans For Fair Taxation

Should be called the unfair tax. Sales taxes like this are regressive (again) and unfair to the lowest income groups (again).
We want everyone to benefit from living in the richest country the world has ever seen. Sometimes that could mean someone doesn't do someone's fair share, but there is no excuse for making those who work at the lowest wages pay a disproportionate percentage of their hard-earned wages.

It is apparent that you know nothing about the Fair Tax. Read the book and learn something. State sales taxes are regressive because the tax is a percentage on the cost after all of the embedded taxes have been added in. The Fair tax eliminates these embedded taxes so the price is lower or remains the same after the Fair Tax is assessed.

 

[Steelplate]

There is no natural right to steal a mans wages in the form of taxes. That's pretty simple.

If you are a member of a society there is

I am not a member of anything I am an individual. You give a government the power to steal your money they get power hungry as we can see and decided to go further. I don't need a government to look over me I can manage just fine by myself...I can manage to buy everything I need and have the things I need without a bunch of idiots running things.

I disagree. We have a corporate machine holding American workers hostage for low wages by outsourcing and the threat of outsourcing......or, requiring degrees for jobs that used to be OTJ trained ones(debt makes one a fearful and loyal employee).....or perhaps even trying to block a comprehensive health care system because it reduces their control and the employee's mobility.

Stop thinking that tyranny can only come from government....especially when the campaign rules not only create an environment where political influence CAN be bought, but actually makes it policy and the only way to get elected to office to SERVE the people.....so, I guess in that respect, government has it's share of the blame.

 

[Too Tall]

I think trying to argue the rich are overburdened by are current tax system is a bad argument, largely because as we all know in the last 10 years, the rich have made out like bandits, and the poor and middle class have suffered serious loses.

However, the federal tax system is big, bloated, and in desperate need of restructuring. Talking about making taxes less complicated, eliminating loopholes, and downsizing the IRS, those are things I think most Americans can agree on.

The Fair Tax eliminates the IRS.

 

[Too Tall]

That looks very interesting.

The only problem that I see with the Fair Tax is that the Congress would NEVER pass such a law. And I am one that used to say "never say never."

There aren't enough honest men and women in either party to relinquish the power they have over peoples lives with the current tax system.

A damned shame it is I say!

A Fair Tax definitely was a provocative idea and deserving of a close look. And I certainly can see merit to it. But I see much more opportunity with mischief, graft, corruption, and manipulation with a Fair Tax, most of which could not exist as easily with a simple flat tax.

Explain?

 

[AmyNation]

I think trying to argue the rich are overburdened by are current tax system is a bad argument, largely because as we all know in the last 10 years, the rich have made out like bandits, and the poor and middle class have suffered serious loses.

However, the federal tax system is big, bloated, and in desperate need of restructuring. Talking about making taxes less complicated, eliminating loopholes, and downsizing the IRS, those are things I think most Americans can agree on.

The Fair Tax eliminates the IRS.

I saw and it was very interesting.

However both the fair tax and the flat tax will never happen. The power to give tax breaks and/or raise taxes on specific groups of people is an invaluable tool of power our government has. Neither side will ever willingly give it up.

 

[kiwiman127]

The Fair Tax is the only proposal that taxes consumption and eliminates all other Federal taxes, including the payroll taxes. Even drug dealers would have to pay this tax when they buy their expensive toys.

That would mean higher taxes for the middle class and lower taxes for the wealthy. The middle class pays a much higher percentage of their expendable income for necessities than the wealthy, it isn't even close.
Nice try. It didn't work for Herman Cain and it's not going to work today.

 

[nitroz]

I vote for a flat tax % rate for all and harsh penalties who don't cough up.

 

[bripat9643]

If you are a member of a society there is

I am not a member of anything I am an individual. You give a government the power to steal your money they get power hungry as we can see and decided to go further. I don't need a government to look over me I can manage just fine by myself...I can manage to buy everything I need and have the things I need without a bunch of idiots running things.

Oh, I forgot...."Libertarian"

You want all the benefits of society, but don't want to have to pay. That is why no country on earth is libertarian.........except for Somalia

Welfare is a benefit of society?

Who knew?

 

[Erand7899]

According to some polls, most Americans think the rich—several among the top 5% and all in the top 1%-- should be required to pay more.
Most Americans say rich should pay more taxes, according to new survey - CBS News

So what do you think?

Here’s the problem as I see it:

Who is paying the federal income taxes in the USA? Among all Americans:

Top 1%
AGI earnings: $343,927 and over
% of all income taxes paid: 36.73

Top 5%
AGI earnings: $154,643
% of all income taxes paid: 58.66

Top 10%
AGI earnings: $112,124
% of income taxes paid: 70.47

Top 25%
AGI earnings: $66,193
% of income taxes paid: 87.30

Top 50%
AGI earnings: $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 97.75

Bottom 50%
AGI earnings: below $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 2.25

National Taxpayers Union - Who Pays Income Taxes?

President Obama wants the rich to pay more. Challenger Romney wants lower taxes for at least the middle class.

Are they both right? One more right than the other? Both wrong?

Please read the following explanation:

Economics of Beer Drinking​

Ten guys who were friends met at the local neighborhood bar to have a beer or two every Friday. They agree to pay the $100 bill in the same way they paid their income taxes.

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.00
The sixth would pay $3.00
The seventh would pay $7.00
The eighth would pay $12.00
The ninth would pay $18.00
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.00
Using this system, the men drank in the bar every Friday with no complaints until the owner threw them a curve..

"Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to give you a discount and your bill will be $80.00 instead of $100.”

They couldn’t divide the discount equally as that would be $3.33 each which would mean six of them would get paid to drink beer. So the bar owner, something of a mathematician figured it out roughly by percentages according to what each had been paying.

Now the fifth man joined the first four and paid nothing. A 100% savings for the fifth man.
The sixth man now paid $2 instead of $3. (33% savings)
The seventh man now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eight man now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth man now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth man now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings)

Each of the bottom four still enjoyed the benefit of paying nothing and every one of the other six was better off than before.

But the fifth man began to compare savings and complained that he only got $1 of the $20 discount while the tenth man got $10. That wasn’t fair. And the others also noticed that they got less of a discount than the tenth man and began to angry. Why should the richest guy get the biggest break? And the bottom four joined in the protest: “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor.”

And they ganged up on the richest guy and accused him of all sorts of privilege and excess and greed and plotted how to get him to pay more of the bill.

The next Friday the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

(teaching attributed to) David R. Kamerschen, PH. D
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

Does anyone think folks are going to demand that their traxes be raised??

Hell No. Everyone but them should have to pay more taxes.

Also might me nice if that 49% who pay no Fed taxes had some skin in the game. After all they have no problem sucking up Welfare, tax breaks, EIC and any other freebie money they can glom onto.

Might be nice if they payed something into the kitty to run the country. They have no problem taking just a big problem supporting.

Yup, blame the people who follow the law instead of the flawed system. Sounds reasonable.

I agree that the system is flawed, Amy, but Claudette wasn't blaming the people. She WAS blaming a system that allows half of the people to suffer no consequences from tax increases,but having ability to vote for people who will raise other people's taxes but not theirs. That is fundamentally wrong on the face of it, and nothing good can possibly come from it.

The solution is not to tax the income of those who currently pay no income taxes, but to eliminate the income tax altogether, and go to a federal sales tax. We could keep the capital gains tax, which is pretty much what the rich pay, and everyone would have skin in the game.

 

[Erand7899]

BTW, under the Obamacare legislation, some high level real estate sales will be subject to a 3.4% sales tax. This means little to the average joe, currently, but it is the nose under the tent for the federal government to start imposing sales taxes without doing away with the income tax.

You can bet your bottom dollar, that this tax will work its way down to the average joe, in a few short years. Just like the alternate minimum tax has.

 

[Darkwind]

Don't you think it would be important to include a look at what % of wealth those groups hold compared with the tax %?

Did that thought never cross your mind?

No, because that is NOT fair, by any definition. After all, we are talking about fair share.

Don't you think it is important that those who use the most resources, should be required to put some skin in the game?

 

[kiwiman127]

According to some polls, most Americans think the rich—several among the top 5% and all in the top 1%-- should be required to pay more.
Most Americans say rich should pay more taxes, according to new survey - CBS News

So what do you think?

Here’s the problem as I see it:

Who is paying the federal income taxes in the USA? Among all Americans:

Top 1%
AGI earnings: $343,927 and over
% of all income taxes paid: 36.73

Top 5%
AGI earnings: $154,643
% of all income taxes paid: 58.66

Top 10%
AGI earnings: $112,124
% of income taxes paid: 70.47

Top 25%
AGI earnings: $66,193
% of income taxes paid: 87.30

Top 50%
AGI earnings: $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 97.75

Bottom 50%
AGI earnings: below $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 2.25

National Taxpayers Union - Who Pays Income Taxes?

President Obama wants the rich to pay more. Challenger Romney wants lower taxes for at least the middle class.

Are they both right? One more right than the other? Both wrong?

Please read the following explanation:

Yup, blame the people who follow the law instead of the flawed system. Sounds reasonable.

I agree that the system is flawed, Amy, but Claudette wasn't blaming the people. She WAS blaming a system that allows half of the people to suffer no consequences from tax increases,but having ability to vote for people who will raise other people's taxes but not theirs. That is fundamentally wrong on the face of it, and nothing good can possibly come from it.

The solution is not to tax the income of those who currently pay no income taxes, but to eliminate the income tax altogether, and go to a federal sales tax. We could keep the capital gains tax, which is pretty much what the rich pay, and everyone would have skin in the game.

As I posted in Post # 90:

"That would mean higher taxes for the middle class and lower taxes for the wealthy. The middle class pays a much higher percentage of their expendable income for necessities than the wealthy, it isn't even close.
Nice try. It didn't work for Herman Cain and it's not going to work today."

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, the "Fair Tax" would definitely be a far more regressive tax than would be a flat tax across the board. And again, I can see so many more ways an unscruplulous Congress could meddle, juryrig, and manipulate a "Fair Tax" and how it could become more of a nightmare than the current tax code. I want a system that is 100% ttransparent, fair, and difficult to manipulate without pissing everybody off. A flat tax would put most of the control back into the hands of the people where it belongs, and, because everybody would proportionately benefit or suffer from changes in the tax rate, there is less incentive for Congress to monkey with it. It would take class warfare totally out of the equation.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.

I use that as my sigline

Lincoln got it from Karl Marx. No one is surprised that you think it's the ultimate wisdom.

Yes, that well-known Marxist, Abraham Lincoln. And of course it is absolutely impossible that anything Marx said could have any value. Also, in quoting Lincoln (Marxist/socialist/communist/devil), I must also be a member of the cabal of darkness.
Well, it certainly would be great to crush the concept that money is God and must rule everything. I don't think I nor Lincoln nor Marx nor anyone else will accomplish it soon, but the era must pass away.
Tinkering with taxes, replacing one unfair system with another, is not an answer. Taxing the poor to pay for the rich may be worse than taxing the rich to pay for the poor, but neither is 'fair'. Equal effort by all would be good, but we all see that there are layers at the top and the bottom that absolutely refuse to honor the rest of us.
It is not electing another Democrat or another Republican or passing a flat tax or any other external measure that will cure things. The present 'crisis' is not a natural disaster. The earth and the universe are the same as in 2000 (pretty much, physically speaking). The 'crisis' is economics, money, and they are totally human inventions, imaginations, illusions. We need renewed thinking on the part of individuals if we are to advance.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sticking ones head in the sand and pretending that all the problems are illusion no doubt brings comfort to some. And I will admit that many of our problems should be of absolutely no concern to the federal government. But how about we balance the federal budget and pay the bills before we all put on the rose colored glasses. Okay?

 

[Article 15]

According to some polls, most Americans think the rich—several among the top 5% and all in the top 1%-- should be required to pay more.
Most Americans say rich should pay more taxes, according to new survey - CBS News

So what do you think?

Here’s the problem as I see it:

Who is paying the federal income taxes in the USA? Among all Americans:

Top 1%
AGI earnings: $343,927 and over
% of all income taxes paid: 36.73

Top 5%
AGI earnings: $154,643
% of all income taxes paid: 58.66

Top 10%
AGI earnings: $112,124
% of income taxes paid: 70.47

Top 25%
AGI earnings: $66,193
% of income taxes paid: 87.30

Top 50%
AGI earnings: $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 97.75

Bottom 50%
AGI earnings: below $32,396
% of income taxes paid: 2.25

National Taxpayers Union - Who Pays Income Taxes?

President Obama wants the rich to pay more. Challenger Romney wants lower taxes for at least the middle class.

Are they both right? One more right than the other? Both wrong?

Please read the following explanation:

Economics of Beer Drinking​

Ten guys who were friends met at the local neighborhood bar to have a beer or two every Friday. They agree to pay the $100 bill in the same way they paid their income taxes.

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.00
The sixth would pay $3.00
The seventh would pay $7.00
The eighth would pay $12.00
The ninth would pay $18.00
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.00
Using this system, the men drank in the bar every Friday with no complaints until the owner threw them a curve..

"Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to give you a discount and your bill will be $80.00 instead of $100.”

They couldn’t divide the discount equally as that would be $3.33 each which would mean six of them would get paid to drink beer. So the bar owner, something of a mathematician figured it out roughly by percentages according to what each had been paying.

Now the fifth man joined the first four and paid nothing. A 100% savings for the fifth man.
The sixth man now paid $2 instead of $3. (33% savings)
The seventh man now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eight man now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth man now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth man now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings)

Each of the bottom four still enjoyed the benefit of paying nothing and every one of the other six was better off than before.

But the fifth man began to compare savings and complained that he only got $1 of the $20 discount while the tenth man got $10. That wasn’t fair. And the others also noticed that they got less of a discount than the tenth man and began to angry. Why should the richest guy get the biggest break? And the bottom four joined in the protest: “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor.”

And they ganged up on the richest guy and accused him of all sorts of privilege and excess and greed and plotted how to get him to pay more of the bill.

The next Friday the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

(teaching attributed to) David R. Kamerschen, PH. D
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

Another disingenous OP from USMB's Queen of Intellectual Dishonesty.